ERE Year 2 - Geoarbitrage, Permaculture, and Nomadic Lifestyle Design

Where are you and where are you going?
J_
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by J_ »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:24 pm
One side note to all the concerns over old age health care in that thread. I just want to point out, having the knowledge to manage and navigate healthcare options as we age is a skill like any other. Just like other skills, 99% of people do it really, really poorly. This is actually one problem/fear I do not have. It is possibly for most to learn given enough effort, but I think most feel resigned that healthcare is one of those things only an "expert" can handle, beyond doing our best to maintain good health. That's just really not the case, like anything else specialized, it's possible to use the 80/20 rule to help make good, informed decisions in this realm that will save a lot of heartache (potentially literal heart aches) as we age. A caveat being that most young people probably do not consider the physical and/or mental limitations that may begin to impact them as they age, and the poster was right that this needs to be considered and expenses may pop up in other realms (ie not just healthcare) to maintain lifestyle.
I have made some text of you in Bold. I am one of those who is prepared to study/apply a lot to maintain good health, I see it as a skill one can learn. I am not a professional, as I think you are. Can you please inform us more, perhaps in a new topic?

classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

@J
I have to be careful to walk a fine line, as I have given more than enough info here to be easily doxxed and can't/don't want to give any specific medical advice. Which is why I post such things as generalities to encourage folks to do their own due diligence on medical matters. I worry any thread devoted to this will quickly move into specific personal circumstances or possibilities, so I try to avoid those.

J_
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by J_ »

@c-L: I understand your care. I appreciate much what you have already mentioned. And I fully endorse what you said:

Getting skilled in staying healthy long term, is something you can only realize by studying and practicing by yourself.

And the nice thing is: you are your own proof!

Jin+Guice
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by Jin+Guice »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:36 pm
it forced me to really think about how I can enjoy the present, while continuing to give my future self options.
This is the distillation of ERE to me. If you're not doing this than what are you doing?

Some things that the recently FIREd (not necessarily you, @2B1S though) don't often consider are 1) continuing to raise their Wheaton level and 2) working again.

A lot of the things you listed would raise your Wheaton level. Getting to FI only requires you to optimize along one parameter, mainly money. It's something we've all used all of our lives. Once the skills necessary to lower income are gained (most of which is done through giving things up or changing how things are done), it's rinse and repeat for a few years. The reward of money and watching numbers grow on a screen are easy, we're already used to them and they feel good.

The interesting thing is that money is the abstraction while all higher Wheaton level stuff actually delivers its payload directly. When you grow your own food, you get to eat that food. When you build your own house, you get to live in it. These are the goals we (myself included) have to convince ourselves are worthwhile. Getting to a higher Wheaton level after FI is difficult because you have to figure out what it means and how you want to do it. It's a slower pace and a less immediate abstract reward than accumulating money, but I think it's more worthwhile. It can seem daunting at first because there is so much we've never even thought about that we don't know how to do, but it's possible to figure out what the most worthwhile small step is for you and then work towards doing just that.

The two things you've just freed yourself from are 1) the need to earn some amount of money and 2) being enslaved to your means of providing for yourself and your family. With an eye on avoiding these two things in the future, you can now do any "job" you've ever wanted for however long (or short) you want to in any capacity that you can find or create. What a future option to close out without even thinking about it.

@c_L: I'm also interested in what your vague "learn to navigate the healthcare system" would mean. I promise I won't sue.

classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 8:33 am
@c_L: I'm also interested in what your vague "learn to navigate the healthcare system" would mean. I promise I won't sue.
It's not only that or license issues. It's that I don't want to be responsible for someone making choices based on general statements made by me. Each situation is unique. What I mean is that most people handle their medical care they way they do the rest of their life, they hire someone(s) to fix problems and don't really care how it gets done, or if it gets done right. As long as they dont have to think about it for awhile. Around here, there is a ton of pushback on this in life generally. However, less so when it comes to medical care. It's just taken as a forgone conclusion that the only option we have here is in prevention (which is realy, really good in itself). However, that's not the case. You have options in treatments too.

The financial analogy here is saving 500K(prevention), but then paying Edward Jones 2% load fees and 2% ER, while that expert puts you in a 60/40 bogleheads portfolio. You're paying a shit-ton to do something that is very suboptimal, but it's considered normal in the industry, so... In healthcare, like investments, it's better to learn as much as you can yourself, then use expert consultation when needed, and only get involved in the products/services that make sense for you. IMO, you have to be over/past Mt Stupid in knowledge, as a minimum, to be able to do this effectively in any field. It's much better to know how you'll react to things in advance, because just like in investments, you don't want to have to formulate your strategy during a time of stress or extreme volatility. You need a plan that makes sense for you, in advance of stressors.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 8:33 am
It's a slower pace and a less immediate abstract reward than accumulating money, but I think it's more worthwhile. It can seem daunting at first because there is so much we've never even thought about that we don't know how to do, but it's possible to figure out what the most worthwhile small step is for you and then work towards doing just that.
This is why it's so much easier to try to focus on higher Wheaton levels in lieu of a massive income stream. So, I think it's easier to move up Wheaton levels after FT employment is over. $200 is meaningless when you make 10K a month and are constantly stressed for time. When you have plenty of time and no income, $200 means much, much more to you. As it should, IMO.

I think the biggest problem moving past Wheaton 5 is learning to track things other than money. Traditional FI accumulation has us in a single-minded race, one that doesn't do us much good when trying to understand and track flows of nonfinancial nature at a level of conscious competence. Particularly if the return on the excess of those flows are delayed in time and space.

IOW, 100K @4% return is 104K next year. Easy to know what I've gained by accumulating excess in financial flow, even with time and space distance. This is much, much, harder to do in other realms. So, it becomes difficult to motivate yourself towards progress.

Edited multiple times for clarity.
Last edited by classical_Liberal on Tue May 12, 2020 4:27 pm, edited 5 times in total.

jacob
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by jacob »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:54 pm
I think the biggest problem moving past Wheaton 5 is learning to track things other than money. Traditional FI accumulation has us in a single-minded race, one that doesn't do us much good when trying to understand and track flows of nonfinancial nature at a level of conscious competence. Particularly if the return on those flows are delayed in time and space.
This mainly being the problem of coming from the [high-income] salaryman quadrant. (This has been discussed before in some thread but I forget where.) The Wheaton table itself was written mostly from an evolving salaryman perspective. If you come in from another quadrant like workingman or businessman the levels (steps, sticking points, and plateaus) would look different. If you're already in the systems-thinking quadrant, like e.g. a permaculturist, who is often deliberately oblivious to money, the evolution looks positively weird (from a salaryman's perspective).

(Better framework: The Wheaton table should really be a kind of Wheaton map that goes up the mountain but acknowledges that one can approach from different directions.)

(Best framework: There are actually multiple mountain tops and ERE just happens to the one which is called ERE. The mountain might be higher that the table record shows, but we don't know because nobody has been there.)

classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

@jacob
Agree completely. I was involved in that discussion, which seems to have involved several different threads and evolved over time, so I can't reference it easily. My point was for someone like @2B1S, who I know is coming from the high paying salaryman quadrant, just like me.

Those coming from a systems approach often have more problems with the cognitive dissonance of using/saving excess money flows for FI. Since they have tried to stay away from the money economy.

It's both ironic and beneficial that people coming from almost polar opposite sides reside on this forum.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

I have spent a lot of time deeply introspecting over the past few days, and have a bunch of thoughts that will take a few separate posts to get through and address some of the conversation here.

First of all, thank you for the sounding board and perspective, folks. It really helps to have this level of thoughtful conversation here.

@c_L, I too love the trapeze analogy much more than the door analogy. You've hit the nail on the head, I've let go of the last one and grabbed the slow travel one. Originally the plan was to let go of this one after a year in order to let SO and possibly myself get back to some sort of paid work and top of the reserves before the next adventure (most likely the thru-hike). The current state of the world has been akin to someone shutting the lights off in the circus. I know the others are swinging around and can hear them, but I'm out of sync. Hopefully time will lift the dimmer switch and provide some clarity. On the health front, I know what I can control today, and just focus on that (albeit poorly at times, ha!).

After some further contemplation and inspiration, I realized that my last post was not entirely truthful! I do in fact have a list of things I want to accomplish, experience, and learn. But I currently lack the planning to do them. Luckily the range of topics, skills, and activities is broad enough, that almost any situation I place myself in, will be conductive to one or more of them! I truly believe I've elevated past simple salaryman thinking, and my wheaton leavel has been on the rise for the past few years. This just feels like a short pause before the next growth spurt!

Some activities and skills that I genuinely want to acquire/improve include the following;

gardening (indoor, outdoor, food, sustainable)
woodwork (simple structures/techniques for now)
solar system (theory, design, practical applications, building, etc)
small engine maintenance/repair/troubleshooting
ditto for small diesel (marine especially) engines
basic vehicle maintenance and repair (car and motorcycle)
sailing (theory, single-handing, crewing, basic boat maintenance/repair, nautical systems, weather)
cycling (more advanced maintenance/repair, longer touring trips, improving MTB skills and terrain)
shelter - designing/building/finishing (tiny house, van/skoolie, liveaboard boat, RV, etc)
animals - raising, feeding, sheltering, possibly dispatching and processing (chickens, rabbits, goats, cows, etc)
hiking/mountaineering (basic survival skills such as navigation, water sourcing, foraging, first aid)
art (primarily interested in exploring different mediums, I am NOT an artistic person, yet fascinated by sculptures, pottery, metal/woodwork, etc)
surfing - big goal to learn!
snowboarding - haven't in over a decade, used to ride a LOT in my youth/teen years
stand up paddle boarding - enjoyed this a lot
kayaking - would love to do some saltwater and multi day kayaking/canoe camping trips
cooking - already a good cook, but need to get on Seppia's level

So regardless of where we end up geographically, and what mode of life we chose, there should be many opportunities to acquire and expand my domain in these areas. Take WOOFing for example, living on a farm/homestead, could cover gardening, animals, woodwork, small engine maintenance, cooking. Living in a van and traveling the US could cover solar system design, vehicle repair, cycling, SUPing, hiking/mountaineering, etc.

@mooretrees, that too seems like the best option given the currently available information.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

@J+G, @c_L, @Jacob

You guys bring up some great points. I agree that there is an innate tendency to obsess over one dimension (money) when discovering FIRE/ERE/escaping the rat race. I was guilty of it with the best of them! It took a lot of effort at first, in order to expand the thought process and efforts to other dimensions. To c_L's point, I've been "tracking" other things for a few years now, including fitness, activity levels, how much waste I produce, how much energy I use, with almost zero regard for how they impact finances. Heck, my last apartment included electricity and heat in the rent, yet it was a constant optimization effort for environmental reasons, ditto for purchasing consumer goods such as electronics and clothing. Even when $200 or even $2000 was a drop in the bucket, my thinking evolved to have a disdain for waste, regardless of how little it impacted my time to FI or other financial metrics.

@J+G, I actually find it that growing wheaton levels *after* FI may be easier for the very reasons y'all are discussing. If quality of life = skill of living * cost of living, and you're without an income, it only makes sense to naturally improve on the skill front. I think a big key here may be to avoid over-saving, as posted quite often by folks such as c_L, if you have 50 years of an opulent budget in your portfolio, you get lazy and less creative, and that zest and quest for improvement can easily fizzle out. To that affect, we might be at the sweet spot....enough capital to be free from having to work a specific type of job, but not off the hook completely for being a productive human in some sort of capacity.

As far as I'm concerned, my core accumulation phase is over for good. Watching the numbers on the spreadsheet is now for the sole purpose of making sure we doing go completely off course. Now it's truly time to design a life that's conducive to growth and a positive impact on our environment, people, and places we call home along the way.

One topic that I discussed with my wife yesterday, was serendipity. Someone posted a link to the ERE wiki (specifically the serendipity section) recently, and it really made me think about the whole concept. So far there has been some serendipity in my career and personal life that was taken advantage of because of embracing this lifestyle/philosophy.......I imagine this will take us to strange and delightful places (literally and metaphorically).

Jin+Guice
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by Jin+Guice »

*I meant getting to a higher Wheaton level than the one it takes for you to FIRE is difficult. I agree that it's easier to get to a higher Wheaton level once you don't have to worry about making money (FI is sufficient for this but not necessary, which is sort of the point of semi-ERE). I worded my statement poorly in my previous post, sorry for the confusion.

@2b1s: That serendipity shit is why I don't think ERE people really have to worry about not being employable. @OldPro's story from the thread linked before is a great example. He didn't even really have to save that money to retire, but having some money helped him not worry, which helped him take on whatever projects he wanted. In the current Western environment, if you have the knowledge/ skills to save 3-5x annual living expenses, people will hire you to do shit for them. EarlyFlaneurExtreme.

For the large majority of people who actually make it onto this forum, I think not leading a boring life (as defined by themselves of course) is a better goal than saving X amount of money.

classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

@J+G
Semi-ERE bat-signal for AE's journal! He needs your expertise to help him quit his FT job. :lol:

2Birds1Stone
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Musings

It looks like we will soon be actual refugees here in Portugal, as Poland's airspace has not been opened to international commercial flights, and there is no concrete date for the resumption. We have no desire to head back to metro NYC area, and the other ways of traveling into Poland pose some risk (IE trying to fly to Ukraine and cross by foot). The fact that we have to stamp out of the EU and enter directly from a non-EU country (whether by land or air) definitely complicates things, otherwise it would be a fairly straightforward trip due-east from here by bus/train/etc.

That leaves us with the possibility of extending our stay here. As an EU passport holder I can apply for temporary residency, and once I have that my spouse can apply for the same. That limits us to staying within the country, at least until it's safe to fly back to the USA or once there are flights available to Poland via UK, Turkey, etc. It's a PITA to go through the paperwork, and also find new accommodation (we have to vacate out APT on June 7th anyway, as someone else has booked it after that).

Another point of angst has been a letter my wife received stating that her former employers insurance company is appealing the workers comp boards decision on her injury last fall. They are trying to claim that the injury is not clearly the result of her accident, and likely trying to screw her over and refusing to pay their share. Incredibly frustrating because we are out of the country, and she's super stressed about possibly losing (even though she did absolutely nothing wrong, and tore her shoulder at work). We have an online hearing the first week of June, so this is something on the back of our minds, daily.

Otherwise things have been going fairly well here. We took a short 3 day road trip down to the Algarve and back up along the coast to Lisbon. Exploring some completely empty beaches, sleepy resort (ghost)towns, and enjoying a change of scenery. One of the flats we stayed in had a bathroom scale, so I was able to weigh myself for the first time in over two months. 90-91 kg, so it looks like I've lost about 5 lbs since we left the states. It feels like most of it was muscle (while simultaneously gaining some spare tire), due to the lack of resistance training here.....I am confident that once I'm able to lift weight again, it will come back fairly quickly, but for now I've started doing pull-ups and push-ups in addition to biking.

Restaurants have opened up, with primarily outdoor seating. We had our first meal out in 2.5 months on Tuesday night. Open air kitchen/seating type place along the Tagus river. Went with a couple we met through my cycling. American expat with a Portuguese wife. Nice people, and enjoyed a nearly 5 hour meal with plenty of drinks......the bill came to less than $80 for the 4 of us when it was all said and done. Next week we will explore the Lisbon Oceanarium (aquarium), as it's opened with reduced capacity, and my wife is a marine biology geek.

Portugal is at ~1250 fatalities related to Covid, mostly elderly/care homes, and in the north region. Things have been opening here since the beginning of the month, and life is starting to feel almost completely normal (sans masks and hand sanitizing everywhere). We are seeing tons of people out and about, after 8 weeks of eerily quiet existence. No tourists here though, which makes for an interesting experience.

I learned a valuable investing lesson, which cost $14k in realized losses within my HSA account. I had held 5% of my portfolio in a REIT (EPR) which got hit particularly hard due to Covid. They invest in experiential real estate (theaters, Top Golf, Dave & Busters, resorts, etc) properties, with a concentration in movie theaters. After the shares dropped ~70%, they announced an end to their relatively high dividend, and no guidance on strategy. Theaters won't re-open for a while, and even if they did, movies aren't being filmed right now, with many studious pushing off this summers blockbuster lineup or going direct to consumer model. After much internal anguish I decided to move the funds to cash and avoid further loss. Otherwise, my portfolio is down less than 10% from it's high-water mark. Combined with TTM spending dropping another significant chunk this month, WR% is still trending down month to month. June is looking to be fairly expensive if we stay in Portugal, have to take multiple flights to enter Poland, or end up having to go back to the USA.

anesde
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by anesde »

Excellent stuff! Is your new American friend also retired? Curious as to how they’ve set up their lives.

The cost to eat out delicious food is what I long for the most. We cook at home 95%+ of the time here in London, due both to cost and a general disdain for the available cuisine. Hard to get excited to pay £25+/person for mediocre food when I can make better food for a fraction of that.

However, I absolutely love going out to “tascas” in Portugal where you can get delicious meals for c. €6-10/person, and the occasional nice restaurant for c. €20 (in the north at least, cheaper than the capital). Things like bacalhau can actually be cheaper in restaurants vs. buying in grocery stores!

The aquarium is great - love the otters there. Best of luck with your wife’s claim, and your shelter in place plans.

classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

F'en workmans comp! It seems like they fight most claims. Sorry you guys have to deal with that.

Another option is to do the US leg of your travel now, and go back to the international thing in 2021 or whenever. I'm road tripping now in the Midwest, most of the outdoorsy stuff is open and not busy. I think it'll continue to open more as the summer progresses, but remain below normal levels of people. There's more the to US than NYC :D

2Birds1Stone
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

@anesde, he's in the process of retiring. Having two shipping containers moved from the states to Portugal with belongings, including a car and motorcycle. They're also in the process of planning an unconventional home build outside of Lisbon, currently in the architecture/planning phase. We got together for a nice bike ride again yesterday. Traffic (both car/foot) has increase significantly in the past week.

The food we had was fantastic. I believe we ordered pate, goat cheese, cured ham, olives, pickled veggies, two orders of bread, a pitcher of sangria, 5 large beers, 4 small beers, 4 entrees, and the bill was 71 Euro before tip....view was fantastic, and most importantly we didn't feel rushed like in an American restaurant.

PS - waiting for the continuation of your own story in your journal.......*nudge nudge*

@c_L, yea it really sucks and is stressing (especially her) out. Not something that is easy to deal with when you're halfway across the globe. When you factor in the Dr. visits, MRI, two 8 week rounds of PT, etc, it's a LOT of money they are trying to stick her with paying. Hopefully the WC board is there to protect the honest employees who got hurt on the job. It's just fucked up that the burden of proof ends up with us and we have to deal with this on top of having the whole WC medical/legal headaches to get her treatment. She's still not nearly 100% with the shoulder, can't swim, lift weights, and even when she went back to work on light duty before we left, had to break often from what she was doing due to to pain from the repetitive motions which are essential to her function.

I would absolutely consider that plan of postponing international, if it weren't for the fact that this might be my last chance to spend significant time with 95 y/o grandfather and 90 y/o grandmother. They are the main reason I am trying to get there ASAP. Time is not on their side, plus I haven't seen the rest of my family/friends there since last summer, and we are fairly close.

More Musings....

On a slightly different tangent, I've been doing a TON of introspection and thinking regarding what I want to spend my next few years doing/building. Realizing that the list I provided last week was very much filled with "activities" and certain skills that could be useful, but ultimately unfulfilling on their own. Having a bunch of cool hobbies/things to learn is great because it means I won't (likely) be bored regardless of where we end up or what mode of lifestyle we choose, but on a deeper level I am starting to get the feeling that in the next few months I would like to find a bigger cause or "project" to dedicate some time and energy into. So far this trip has made a few things clearer, one being that I am a social creature, despite wavering between extroversion and introversion, I feed off of the energy of others, and also energize and inspire those around me. Another, is that no matter how much I love spending time with my wife, I need a broader range of social interaction regularly. I enjoy intellectual/philosophical debate on a broad range of topics, and need more mental stimulation and challenge than the internet/my marriage can provide alone. I also realized that over the past 12-15 years, I've always been my happiest when I'm working towards something, for the journey is the reward. Whether it was losing 100+ lbs and working on going from obese couch potato to becoming competitive in amateur drug free bodybuilding, reaching a competitive powerlifting total, going from being unable to swim to finishing a 70.3 mile Ironman, to reaching a relatively successful level of income/career capital, and ultimately the biggest goal of the past decade, financial independence. It was the enjoyment of the process of getting there, that always outweighed the feelings afterward. I've learned to really enjoy the moment and the process of relatively simple things, and combined with a bit of delayed gratification and patience, realize how those can compound to something remarkable.

I don't feel like I *have* to do anything productive, and I'm trying to be mindful of being vs. doing. But I also recognize that I am not the type of person to just sit around filling my days with leisure for months/years on end. So while this Covid-19 debacle gives me some time to recenter myself, and focus on my health, family, and immediate relationships, I'm starting to think about how/where I can scratch the itch for some of those others things I mentioned.

For anyone still reading, this is more of a personal list of things I currently feel like I'm lacking which I enjoyed, yet were largely related to my career, and would like to document as my mental state changes in the coming months;

-feeling challenged, intellectually/mentally
-mentoring/being mentored
-learning something useful that could be applied to a broad range of situations (over the past 5 years these included public speaking/presenting, writing, and negotiating), I helped charter a Toastmasters club at my company, and went through a 9 month leadership development program.
-being regularly surrounded by smart and driven people, with a common goal
-creating something impactful from the ground up. In my line of work this was typically targeted sales assets/business cases which I used to win. Required a significant amount of research on things ranging from industry/company/customer/competitive landscape

Here are a things I need to remind myself that I sorely disliked;

-having a rigid schedule that required me to be in the office
-having to travel on business, often with little notice
-meetings that served no direct purpose to my interests at work
-daily blocking and tackling (sending follow up emails, doing one-off tasks)
-reporting on what I was doing, often within CRM or other applications used to track employee productivity
-office politics and corporate dishonesty
-many other "pilots" that management tried to implement, which required various ways to waste time in order to appease the higher ups
-the expectation that if I wasn't with a client or in a meeting, I was always available for work related communication/action
-having to think about work, outside of work

The last point is the biggest issue I had. Despite my best efforts, while I was in the full swing of things, I would think about work constantly. It would tend to enter my brainspace on weekends, during bike rides, when I laid in bed upon waking up, and even whilst on vacation. Maybe a passion project wouldn't feel bad, but when it was something I was doing purely for money, it was a miserable realization to have. Even my own time wasn't my own.

Therefor I don't think paid employment is the answer. Nor do I really want to start a business that will consume me and my thoughts 24/7.

classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:00 pm
Therefor I don't think paid employment is the answer. Nor do I really want to start a business that will consume me and my thoughts 24/7.
Yeah tough spot huh :)

Basically I have boiled this problem down to breath vs depth and/or freedom vs dedicated purpose. The more one gets involved in a purpose, the more it consumes all of your time and mental space. This can be a really good thing if you are able to personally manage it. Like, not get overwhelmed or obsessed, and do which parts you want, when you want. Unfortunately, the resources required for most things today requires more than one person can provide. This is where the idea of productive employment comes into play. Get a job, or create a job in which you can join or create some type of purpose. The problem is all the bullshit that accompanies it either way. Once you've quit drinking corporate kool-aid it makes it so much harder to gain some sense of purpose from a job created by others. Creating one on your own means you have to deal with all the parts of the process, even the ones you really don't like, plus limited resources.

Sometimes I wonder if this need to feel purposeful and productive isn't just another part of how we have been turned to corporatized worker bees. It only seems natural to us because this is how we've been socialized and behavoralized, like pavlovian dogs. Hence, something the we should be trying to eliminate from our lives.

I'm still hanging my hat on this idea of being vs doing all the time. Probably because this is one solution I haven't really given much time to so far. Whipping out that need to feel productive and purposeful all the time, and letting life's purposes come to me via serendipity/ergodicity. The idea of planting my flag and seeing what happens vs constantly seeking out the next thing to do.

bigato
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by bigato »

Those are interesting reflections. Funnily enough, it's not a problem for me if I think about the job outside the working hours. Actually, I like that it works that way. My creativity flows best. I share some of your other disgusts. The problem I have that I don't see you guys mentioned, is that I hate to work in fixed hours. I'd rather have a clock that I start running every time I sit down to program and stop when I want to go to the bathroom, eat, read some website, etc. Actually I'm about to take on a side job that I'll manage like that. I'll charge very well for the hours worked, but those will be honest, productive hours, and not a fixed amount of hours per day. Another difference is that I want to receive only if and when the project makes a profit, my monthly payment being limited to 10% of the monthly profit until my worked hours get paid. The hourly rate and profit percentage can be negotiated depending on how much I trust the project to be successful. This particular project is for a cousin whose uncle have helped me much with my property over the years, so making money is not priority number one for me. But I could see a variation of this method where I'd be paid weekly percent in cash for my hours, profit or not, and another percentage of my pay would be accumulating as debt that the project owner has to me, which would start getting paid once the project starts profitting. The percentages for the immediate payment and future payment from profits could be adjusted depending on how much I trust the project to be successful. For example, if I'm very confident that it will be highly succesful, I could charge a very high hourly rate (my expertise justifies it) and receive only 10% of that weekly, while 90% of my pay would only ever by paid if the project starts making big bucks. The other extreme would be a project where I am pretty sure that it will fail to profit: then I'd require 90% of the pay to be weekly, and 10% to be paid only if it profits. In this case I probably would be more limited on how high my hourly pay could be. Limited risks for me, and lower pay.

classical_Liberal
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

bigato wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:01 am
The problem I have that I don't see you guys mentioned, is that I hate to work in fixed hours.
This is what I meant by working on what you want, when you want. Flow, for me at least, is very much dependant on when i want to do certain activities and limit them to those timeframes.
bigato wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:01 am
Actually I'm about to take on a side job that I'll manage like that.
I'm curious, did you seek out this side job, or did it come to you?

bigato
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Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by bigato »

It did come to me in a talk with my entrepreneur uncle about how I was thinking about quiting the job at some point. He then said that I could just take on independent projects, and next thing he remembered that his daughter has one of these now, a smartphone app business idea that won a contest, etc. But I also have now a business partner whom I met in Brasilia at a polyglots meeting, that is looking for projects where we can act together. He mostly tackling the business side, and leaving the programming for me.

classical_Liberal
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: ERE Experiment - Vagabonding a COVID-19 Minefield!

Post by classical_Liberal »

@bigato
Feel free to correct me if you feel my interpretation of your answer is wrong. This seems to me, a case of you planting your flag (ie joining polygot group, moving back home) and opportunities coming to you which are agreeable to your current state of being. Maybe it's because I come from salaryman mindset, but this seems fundamentally different than seeking out the next thing simply because of a need to be productive. The former is you being you, following opportunities that arise out of other life choices and are agreeable to current situation which make you feel productive. The latter is changing your current state of being/life situation to find ways of feeling productive.

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