brute journal

Where are you and where are you going?
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Riggerjack
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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:54 pm

Building patios for food money that one knows will not be subsequently used fills the belly, but probably doesn't provide satisfaction. Building patios for free that will never be used is work for works sake.
You seem very caught up in this work for works sake thing. Which is a bit odd on an early retirement site. But we each have our own life story.

The relevant part of building a patio is the learning and the doing, and the repeating. Not whether someone else uses it. If you learn to build a fire by rubbing sticks together, is that an empty experience because the fire burnt up all your carefully crafted materials? Is it empty because of the invention of matches? Before that, I was someone who knew that fire could be started by rubbing sticks together. After, I was someone who COULD start a fire with sticks.

The fire is nothing special, but I am changed. What I am describing is a system for identifying the change to make.
1- Washing dishes is the kind of activity that allows you to be present without having your mind jumping around

2- Resting is a status in wich you either disconnect your mind (by switching on tv, for example) or you let your mind jump around
I will be the first to say that mindfulness and meditation makes no sense to me. Each time I hear somebody describe it, I seems I'm completely missing something, or missing everything. But for me, washing dishes (my least favorite chore) or resting (at the time I wrote that, I was specifically thinking of standing in my living room, looking out the window at nothing much) would be nearly the same line of thoughts. Neither requires my attention, so my mind wanders... But, some people think very differently when doing a task and doing nothing. I was hoping to catch the activity that leads to a wandering mind. That speculative mindset.

So, when you are freely speculating, how happy are you? If the answer is not as happy as you want to be, then you have to figure out why.

For me, it was that I wasn't who I wanted to be, that I hadn't done what I wanted to have done. So I started doing those things, and learning those things, and in the process, became who I am. I'm not done, but I am happy.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: brute journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:51 pm

Riggerjack wrote:What I am describing is a system for identifying the change to make.
What I was suggesting is that there should be a metric which combines Complexity and Entropy to determine likelihood of Satisfaction from Work. The first time you build a patio, you increase Complexity in your brain, and in the environment. The second time you build a patio, you make the same increase to Complexity in the environment, but less of a change to Complexity in your brain. If you do no work, you will still convert complex food into less complex poop and heat, and you will not feel good because if a human did feel good when it did that, then humans would not have developed the capacity to create highly complex hive environments which greatly aid our survival. Then other creatures would have eaten us. Before humans started using fire, gnawed human bones were found in animal caves. After humans started using fire, gnawed animal bones were found in human caves. Therefore, BRUTE needs to at least do work that is as complex as is the work that would be required to hunt/forage and prepare the food he eats, if he LITERALLY wants to feel content/secure in his ability to experience SATISFACTION (root=sate) through the means of his work. Otherwise, he will retain a subconscious anxiety informing him that it is likely that the other members of his tribe will choose to eat him.

Fun Fact: Very young humans, pre-verbal-not-yet-acculturated, when given anything resembling a shovel and pail and a sandbox, will almost always choose to dump the sand out of the sandbox, even when repeatedly instructed to keep it in the box. It seems to me this is because it seems to them that they are accomplishing something when they dump it elsewhere. Babies aren't just cute. They are very interesting people to observe, because they have not yet entered "the cave."

classical_Liberal
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Re: brute journal

Post by classical_Liberal » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:07 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:54 pm
You seem very caught up in this work for works sake thing. Which is a bit odd on an early retirement site. But we each have our own life story.
Yes, perhaps I should have framed my queries more appropriately or at least provided some context. Since @brute has moved from total freedom of time and location to, now, working again, the level of satisfaction expressed in his posts has dramatically increased. This initially frightened me, as my major motivation for ERE was to have total freedom of time and location. I now realize this freedom may have appeal, for awhile, but eventually I'll likely face issues with this type of lifestyle, as so many others in this forum.

Folks here have varied goals in ERE related to self-sufficiency or raising children, etc. Outside of a generic "wanting to be free", I have none. So I think it's important for me to understand what I'm running towards, particularly as the length of the race begins to shorten. If some form of work, or at least accomplishment, is the backbone of long term satisfaction; maybe my financial goals don't need to be as aggressive (ie money is a solved problem thread). Rather my time should focus more on what type of activities will bring me this satisfaction with the freedom I already have. Hence, understanding why some forms of work provide satisfaction and others do not seems important.
Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:54 pm
So, when you are freely speculating, how happy are you? If the answer is not as happy as you want to be, then you have to figure out why.
When I'm freely speculating I'm happy as hell. I love possibilities! When I have to make a choice, I very much get trapped in the paradox of choice.

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daylen
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Re: brute journal

Post by daylen » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:32 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:54 pm
I will be the first to say that mindfulness and meditation makes no sense to me. Each time I hear somebody describe it, I seems I'm completely missing something, or missing everything.
You may have already developed the abilities; many rationalist do.

Essentially, meditation and mindfulness are intended as a set exercises towards disassociating from your thoughts and feelings. Once you start to do this instinctively you can move on to various meta-cognitive techniques which allow you to not only observe your stream of consciousness but to alter your thought patterns. Once you master meta-cognition you can reprogram your mind however you want. :D

rref
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Re: brute journal

Post by rref » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:02 pm

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Last edited by rref on Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

suomalainen
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Re: brute journal

Post by suomalainen » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:01 pm

A recent post to @brute’s point above about mmm being more a cult of personality compared to the ere approach.

https://www.caniretireyet.com/mr-money- ... more-10527

#19

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Riggerjack
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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:11 pm

Essentially, meditation and mindfulness are intended as a set exercises towards disassociating from your thoughts and feelings. Once you start to do this instinctively you can move on to various meta-cognitive techniques which allow you to not only observe your stream of consciousness but to alter your thought patterns. Once you master meta-cognition you can reprogram your mind however you want. :D
Uh huh. And what are you dissociating your thoughts and feelings from, exactly? And how exactly does that differ from a zombie? I've never been able to really, deeply, become one with the broom while sweeping, mainly because I was just sweeping. Adding more intensity makes it more difficult, without improving the job I'm doing. I just don't understand what the goal is.

Also, WTF would you want to reprogram your mind?!?

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daylen
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Re: brute journal

Post by daylen » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:58 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:11 pm
Uh huh. And what are you dissociating your thoughts and feelings from, exactly?
From your identity, beliefs, motivations, and so forth (all the subjective stuff). Some people don't do this automatically.
Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:11 pm
I've never been able to really, deeply, become one with the broom while sweeping, mainly because I was just sweeping. Adding more intensity makes it more difficult, without improving the job I'm doing. I just don't understand what the goal is.
Why would you want to become one with the broom? Where did that come from? What does that even mean? :lol:

Look up metacognition on Wikipedia if you want to know what I am talking about. Why wouldn't you want to have more control over the most vital system to your own existence?

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Riggerjack
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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:58 pm

Ok. I'm still confused. Bewildered. I looked up metacognition, it seemed slow and clunky, like showing my work in trig. I completely fail to understand the need or the appeal.

And I could probably go on not understanding for way too long to be sidetracking BRUTE's journal. I'll start a new thread, so I can tax many people's patience, and stop derailing this thread. I'll post a link here when I have it.

And here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9588

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bryan
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Re: brute journal

Post by bryan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:47 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:11 pm
Also, WTF would you want to reprogram your mind?!?
I think that's the craziest thing I've seen you write on the forums! There's innumerable reasons why one would want to "reprogram" oneself.

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Riggerjack
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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:37 pm

I'll take your word for it.

My mental image of this looks like a guy with a fire ax and a hammer telling me how these are the right tools to reprogram my PC.

So, no. It's not that I can't see the appeal of reprogramming or optimizing. It's that our understanding of the mind and the tools, is so far from where I would need it to be before I started crowbarring, it's not even worth considering.

Or maybe I just think the reward is just too small and risk too great.

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bryan
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Re: brute journal

Post by bryan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:15 pm

You can reprogram yourself with, again, innumerable tools/methods. So it sounds like you are just suspicious of meta-cognition/meditation/mindfulness/etc (whereas you said "WTF would you want to reprogram your mind")? I don't do any of that but still reprogram myself (says me, at least) regularly (usually with something like a book/movie).

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jennypenny
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Re: brute journal

Post by jennypenny » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:18 pm

I would use the word 'rewire' instead of 'reprogram'. It's not changing your mind, but helping it function better.

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bryan
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Re: brute journal

Post by bryan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:46 pm

Well it's true I don't know much about how the brain and bodily networks actually work (for instance, is it more akin to a PLC or the internet or fungus or ??).. but reprogram seems to make good sense (since we are doing it from a higher level than whatever actual alleged rewiring might happen). Both could be correct. I grant that the brain is not structured or works exactly like a von Neumann CPU+memory: a configuration that most people might think of when you say "reprogram". I suppose "machine learning" may be the most analogous to human learning?

Of course in computing you have different philosophies and paradigms, just like in other subjects. Apt is the "code as data" thing.

Writing a human program (so far) happens inside a previous human (first compilation too?) and the assembly/linking probably happens inside the womb. Humans seem to be quite flexible after birth, so I think they are constantly reprogramming themselves as well. Or at least it is a good analogy until we better understand human biology etc.

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:22 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 pm
This is about being the man I wish to be.
how does Riggerjack know what kind of man he wants to be?

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7Wannabe5
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Re: brute journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:45 am

What differentiates an animal from a rock is that if a rock is rolling down a mountain towards you, it is in your rational self-interest to not ascribe it with any internal systemic motivation, but if an animal is running down a mountain towards you it is in your rational self-interest to ascribe it internal systemic motivation. What differentiates Riggerjack from any other animals currently inhabiting this planet is that he has the ability to name, and thereby objectify, his internal systemic motivations.

IOW, Riggerjack knows the qualities of the man he wishes to be by the same process that he knows the taste of the animal he hunts and roasts prior to placing morsel in mouth.

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