brute journal

Where are you and where are you going?
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bryan
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Re: brute journal

Post by bryan » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:53 am

Definitely (hence: "per se"). Clearly you are more "self-aware" than many, and I'm not even sure how I would define self-aware. Certainly it has to do with seeing the self as a part other systems, seeing parts of the self as parts of the self, and making correct observations/deductions/conclusions/etc. etc. Maybe my inclination was that to be self-aware one must be able to predict ta's self's (real or simulated) actions "satisfactorily".

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:10 pm

ok bryan has to school brute, wtf is a "ta"
bryan wrote:Maybe my inclination was that to be self-aware one must be able to predict ta's self's (real or simulated) actions "satisfactorily".
that seems a reasonable definition, and brute would definitely prefer to predict his actions or re-actions better.

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bryan
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Re: brute journal

Post by bryan » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:26 pm

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8672&p=137811#p137811

I forget which language I pulled "ta" from.. sounded the best to me. Though I could have said "one's" instead of "ta's" there I guess? Meh.

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:32 pm

brute prefers the "he" pronoun

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bryan
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Re: brute journal

Post by bryan » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:48 pm

I like it to. But it's damned confusing if others aren't on-board. Maybe "hu" pronounced "hue"? I thought "ta" was most clearly capable of being mutated (i.e. not needing mutation) in spelling (Subject Form, Possessive Form, Object Form, Singular, Plural, etc.) and kind of made sense (if used in the wild, you would probably be able to deduct that it is just "a/that person", especially if it already existed as such in some languages), though.

edit: and to be clear, I still use he/she if I refer to a known gendered person. Only when it's ambiguous or if I'm referring generally do I use "ta". More convenience than anything, as I said in that post.
bryan wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:29 pm
Honestly, who hasn't wished for a pronoun that simply refers to a/that human? Communication/language would be much easier!

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: brute journal

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:02 am

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:45 pm
maybe Elon Musk and Ray Dalio have very high lower limits, and very high upper limits, thus requiring to focus a lot of time and effort on one thing, and then spending their whole lives in that area in order to generate dopamine.

in this sense, brute is like a dog. running after a stick or eating sausage is close to the greatest thing brute can potentially experience. brute is often trivially happy, yet rarely fulfilled for long.
Wagner to a frustrated Nietzsche: “You must either be married or write an opera.”

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fiby41
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Re: brute journal

Post by fiby41 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:44 am

What is Brute's crypto asset allocation like?

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:46 am

nothing fancy. brute basically bought a few things here and there, but doesn't do much trading or reallocating. probably doesn't even qualify as an allocation.

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Riggerjack
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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 pm

brute is often trivially happy, yet rarely fulfilled for long.
Well, this gets down to happiness vs satisfaction.

Happiness is relatively easy to generate. Take any situation, add ice cream bars and go carts, and it's happier. This is a temporary fix. Happiness by it's nature, can't last long.

Satisfaction is more about a feeling of accomplishment. My quality of life has greatly increased as I have courted satisfaction rather than happiness as my muse. This can be little satisfactions, like changing out a light switch that is finnicky. Or bigger satisfactions, like laying a new patio, or changing an engine in the garden tractor. The determining factor is the challenge of the task.

None of these is fun, but all of them increase my "resting happiness rate". My general feeling of happiness is not tied to how much fun stuff I do, but how much difficult stuff I do.

I hope that makes some kind of sense. If not, Adam carolla did several takes on this theme, probably better than mine.

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Re: brute journal

Post by blackbird » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:36 pm

Resting Happiness Rate, I like that. Now I feel compelled to measure it with a metric....

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Riggerjack
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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:20 pm

How content are you, when you are washing dishes? When at rest? When you meet someone new, and go about introducing yourself, and explaining who you are and what you are about?

That is my measure of resting happiness rate.

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:02 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:20 pm
How content are you, when you are washing dishes?
very
Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:20 pm
When at rest?
depends, but usually pretty content.
Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:20 pm
When you meet someone new, and go about introducing yourself, and explaining who you are and what you are about?
not very content.

classical_Liberal
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Re: brute journal

Post by classical_Liberal » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:55 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 pm
Satisfaction is more about a feeling of accomplishment.
In a day to day fashion, how can you tell if this sense of accomplishment is related to an ingrained, American (US), protestant work ethic mentality (ie idle hands are the devils play thing) vs an actual sense of providing value for self, community, or world (fulfilling some upper level Maslow s**t). The former seems motivated by a conditioning I would prefer to shed, the later by a more enlightened internal self. Maybe it does't even matter for long-term resting satisfaction?

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Re: brute journal

Post by daylen » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:39 am

Accomplishment is just a construct in our own minds. It only has meaning because we convince ourselves that it does.

Though, if you come to the conclusion that existing is better than not existing, then the most rational thing to do is to enhance your ability to survive.

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Re: brute journal

Post by classical_Liberal » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:58 am

daylen wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:39 am
Accomplishment is just a construct in our own minds. It only has meaning because we convince ourselves that it does.
If I spent my time digging a hole, without the knowledge someone else spends their time filling it in the next day, I would feel digging the hole as an accomplishment. Will this lead to satisfaction?

What happens to my sense of accomplishment once I realize my neighbor is just filling in all the holes I've dug?

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Re: brute journal

Post by daylen » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:36 am

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:58 am
If I spent my time digging a hole, without the knowledge someone else spends their time filling it in the next day, I would feel digging the hole as an accomplishment. Will this lead to satisfaction?
Depends on the mind of the person digging the hole. Most people would want to at least know why they were digging the hole in the first place. Perhaps all it takes it someone sightly smarter to make up a story for why it is meaningful.

If you are asking whether accomplishment leads to satisfaction, then it depends on semantics.

accomplishment - something that has been achieved successfully
satisfaction - fulfillment of one's wishes, expectations, or needs

Hence, satisfaction follows accomplishment if and only if the accomplishment contributes to one's wishes, expectations, or needs.
classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:58 am
What happens to my sense of accomplishment once I realize my neighbor is just filling in all the holes I've dug?
People will do just about anything to preserve their accomplishments. This could mean making up a story for why what you saw wasn't real, or it could lead to you killing your neighbor and continuing to dig holes while trying to forget he ever existed. Eventually the doubts take over and you are forced to find some other method of satisfaction. Unless there is someone paying you in food for this pointless activity, then perhaps it doesn't matter.

It might be a simplistic example, but there are several parallels to our current global economic system. The economic system has evolved to ensure the optimal level of ignorance in each of its components (the workers), because this is the only way it survives.

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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:38 am

In a day to day fashion, how can you tell if this sense of accomplishment is related to an ingrained, American (US), protestant work ethic mentality (ie idle hands are the devils play thing)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Because I never had that model growing up. This isn't instilled, this is distilled. I come from drugs, wishful thinking, and poverty. As a kid or young man, I would have described work ethic as something some azzhole would preach about while explaining how and why he was an azzhole. So no. This isn't gleaned from good parenting or role models.

This is my observation of what makes me happy, long term. It took me decades to figure it out. I imagine if I had listened to any conservative earlier, or listened to anyone, really, I may have caught on to that sooner... But now that I have, and have had time to confirm it, I'm sharing.

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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:38 am

If I spent my time digging a hole, without the knowledge someone else spends their time filling it in the next day, I would feel digging the hole as an accomplishment. Will this lead to satisfaction?
No. And showing that since senseless work is not satisfactory, work can't be, is a clear strawman. I'm not here to tell you your daddy was right all along. I'm trying to explain long term satisfaction, and it's relationship with happiness.

For me, expanding my capabilities makes me feel good about myself. So laying a patio, for myself, for the first time, is enormously satisfying. Laying a patio for you? That's a job. Laying a second patio without a significant increase in complexity? Just another job. If I swap engines all the time, swapping out the engine in my tractor is just another job to do. You see the pattern here? Work doesn't make me happy, being who I want to be makes me happy. Who I want to be is a man who is capable. The man who can build a house, and clean it. Who can drop a tree, and grow a forest. A man who can conduct a wedding, and build the chapel. The man who knows how to resolve any problem as it comes up. None of those on their own brings me happiness. Being that man does.

Now, I am pushing accomplishment and expanded capabilities, because that is what makes me tick. Not being capable was a deeply felt insecurity when I was a young man. So maybe I have overcorrected a bit over the years, and my quirks are my own. Maybe you have completely different quirks. It doesn't matter. Fixing your life path to follow mine won't make you happy. Finding your quirks, and accomplishing the things you are both interested in and uncomfortable doing is the secret.

BRUTE is content on his own, but less so when introducing himself to other people. So finding ways to be happier on his own is a waste of his time and energy. I would suggest that he spend time thinking of who he wants to be through the eyes of others. Then practice being that man.

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Re: brute journal

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:23 pm

@riggerjack

“I would suggest that he spend time thinking of who he wants to be through the eyes of others. Then practice being that man.”

I agree with all of your advice to brute except this last part.

“My life is for itself, and not a spectacle.”

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Re: brute journal

Post by sky » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:49 pm

The personal pronoun for he/she/it is sheit.

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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:01 pm

Uh huh.

I'm not suggesting pandering to the crowd. While "BRUTE, class clown" has an interesting mental image, that's not where I am going.

We all have a self image. This is our ideas about ourselves mixed with our *perceived* standing among our people. Who is our people? Those we choose, of course. So, if I were not comfortable introducing myself to a stranger, it's partially that I am talking to a stranger, and partially because I am not confident that I will come off well in this short exchange.

But why am I not confident? I'm smart. I'm strong. I'm reasonably good looking. I can speak with confidence about most subjects. My wife is beautiful, and smarter than I am, and my net worth is... Statistically rare. By nearly any measure, I'm kicking ass. I'm not the smartest, nor strongest, prettiest, or richest, but I am very comfortable with who I am, and what I have and can do. So why should I sweat an introduction?

Part of it was 13 years of schoolyards making it very clear that in the ways that matter, socially, I'm a bit retarded. (BTW, "socially retarded" is my favorite label applied by a "school councilor", back in one of my middle schools. I am still amused by it.) This sticks with you, especially when it is true. So there is definitely room to improve.

But remember what I said about finding the things you are interested in, but not comfortable doing? I have worked out enough social grace to be ungraceful, and that's good enough for me. That is the point where my interest flags. Further improvement would not lead to further satisfaction, though this may change if I found more people worth my time to know.

7w5 likes to pull out fashion design, whenever someone gets too comfortable with their own INTJ confidence. And it makes an excellent example. I have no interest, talent or desire to ever get any more into fashion that I am now. Any time or effort I put into that bottomless pit is wasted. Not because fashion is a waste, but because it is wasted on me. Of course I could take a class study up, and really have something to say or do in fashion, freeing me up to talk to people who care about fashion, as an equal. And that is fine, for those who aspire to that, but there is no part of any of that that is slightly appealing. Increasing my fashion capability would not increase my satisfaction, because I have no desire to be fashionable, or spend any time with fashionable people. Honestly, the whole idea seems like a punishment.

But I do want to learn to sing. Learning to sing will be one of my retirement projects. I expect to get to about competence level, and lose interest. It's not the subject that is important, it is my interest in the subject that is important. Then, I can look at the time and effort required to aquire the skill, decide if it is important enough to justify the cost, then schedule it. I have lots of things I want to do, that work slows down. That is why I will retire early. Singing is just such a low priority for me that it is scheduled for a filler in the 30-40 years after retirement.

It is my belief, after posting here for years, that most folks here can compare favorably with their peers. And the longer they are here, the bigger that gap. BRUTE has been posting here for years, and the fact that we are in his journal talking about happiness in general, is a testament to how interesting he can be. I expect he could stand toe to toe with any of his peers and hold his head high. By most measures, I'm sure he would stand head and shoulders above the pack. But for those of us who failed to measure up on the social skills metric as kids, learned to avoid the measuring sticks. This robs us of a metric that is very helpful for self development.

So, with all that said, I recommended BRUTE focus on how he feels in introducing himself. Because, he is smart, and funny, and has worked out in his head how and why he is different from the crowd. But he hasn't yet worked out how different, and how many of those differences are just superiority, and how that affects his *perceived* social standing. My theory is that he feels his inadequacies far more than anyone else does. And that fixing those inadequacies will make him feel better about himself. And introducing yourself is a great way of summing up who you are, and comparing that to other people. It is a great way to get used to measuring sticks again. And that there is an infinite array of measuring sticks now that we are freer. And it makes clear that in the ways that matter to you, you rock. And equally clear is what matters to you, that has yet to be mastered.

This seems to be what he is looking for.

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Re: brute journal

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 pm

I would suggest that he spend time thinking of who he wants to be through the eyes of others. Then practice being that man.
And in a loop of infinite regression, riggerjack starts quoting riggerjack...

But I did want to elaborate on this.

I didn't suggest BRUTE should try to be more (popular, social, funny, blah, blah), but that he should think about who he wants to be, through the eyes of others.

I'm pretty self contained, rarely do I recommend going to others for help. I'm not saying that now. Actual person having actual thoughts about brute would be useless for this purpose. I want BRUTE to think about what he wants others to think of him. This is useful. This gets to the heart of who I want to be. Not what people actually think of me, but what I want them to think of me.

This gives me a standard to measure myself against. It tells me where who I am fails to meet up with who I want to be. After that, it's just a matter of fixing the things I feel are important enough to fix.

For instance, I have had my nose broken a few times, and I grew up with allergies. Consequently, I have a very nasal tone to my voice. I imagine I could get surgery to fix this, but it isn't worth the time and healing to bother with. I expect to die with this nasal tone to my voice, and I'm cool with that. When I was younger, and this was more of a social impediment, I wanted to fix it, but lacked the resources. Now I have the resources, and don't care.

Once I have a template of who I want to be seen as, I have a constant reminder each time I fail to project who I want to be, that *this thing* is what I need to work on.

This is entirely self directed. This is about being the man I wish to be. About making sure that the image I project is the image I want to project, and that I live up to that image. There's nothing like pretending, to hollow out confidence.

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Re: brute journal

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:54 pm

@Riggerjack

Thank you for clarifying. Striving after an external image of one’s self to meet internal ends.

Regarding your nasal tone, it’s often said that 50 Cent sounds more distinctive after getting shot in the face. I’m sure your singing will have a unique charm.

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Family father
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Re: brute journal

Post by Family father » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:14 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 pm
Well, this gets down to happiness vs satisfaction.

Happiness is relatively easy to generate. Take any situation, add ice cream bars and go carts, and it's happier. This is a temporary fix. Happiness by it's nature, can't last long.

Satisfaction is more about a feeling of accomplishment. My quality of life has greatly increased as I have courted satisfaction rather than happiness as my muse. This can be little satisfactions, like changing out a light switch that is finnicky. Or bigger satisfactions, like laying a new patio, or changing an engine in the garden tractor. The determining factor is the challenge of the task.

None of these is fun, but all of them increase my "resting happiness rate". My general feeling of happiness is not tied to how much fun stuff I do, but how much difficult stuff I do.
I buy that, I'll give it a deeper dive...
Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:38 am
BRUTE is content on his own, but less so when introducing himself to other people. So finding ways to be happier on his own is a waste of his time and energy. I would suggest that he spend time thinking of who he wants to be through the eyes of others. Then practice being that man.
I would suggest the other way around :oops:

Facts: BRUTE is very content doing the dishes, pretty content resting and not very content explaining himself to other people.

Few data, so big chance of missing conclussions (IOW too many different personalities could fit into those facts).

Projections:

1- Washing dishes is the kind of activity that allows you to be present without having your mind jumping around

2- Resting is a status in wich you either disconnect your mind (by switching on tv, for example) or you let your mind jump around

Suggestions (not that they have been asked for): follow a few of the zen monk living principles:

1- Do one thing at a time.
2- Do it slowly and deliberately.
3- Do it completely. Put your mind completely on the task.
4- Do less.
5- Put space between things.

These could be a coherent direction given the facts and assumptions..

P.S: You can read a good summary of those principles here: https://zenhabits.net/12-essential-rule ... -zen-monk/

classical_Liberal
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Re: brute journal

Post by classical_Liberal » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:41 pm

I was not providing a straw man as there really are those who belief work for works sake leads to satisfaction; protestant work ethic. Some of those people appear relatively content, more so than I often feel.
Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:38 am
For me, expanding my capabilities makes me feel good about myself. So laying a patio, for myself, for the first time, is enormously satisfying.
I like this distinction because the reasoning is more self actualization vs just doing something as a distraction.

The first patio built shows how capable you truly are, when before you may have doubted your ability (self-actualizing or esteem). If someone knows they enjoy building patios and do so for others, then that is a pleasant distraction, but one that adds value and helps you self identify with in a subgroup of people who like to build patios. Building patios because you need money to eat is work, but at least it adds value and still provides social connection. Each of theses probably leads to satisfaction in some way, but on different levels; the ROI is different for the same activity.

Building patios for food money that one knows will not be subsequently used fills the belly, but probably doesn't provide satisfaction. Building patios for free that will never be used is work for works sake.

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