brute journal

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sun May 28, 2017 1:23 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 8:44 am
By contrast, humans and rats can eat damn near anything. As a result we 1)need to eat lots of different things to meet our requirements and 2) can do fairly well in very different climates with different available foods.
brute would like to contrast this with "30-50% of all humans in the US are considered overweight/obese", "As of 2015, an estimated 415 million people had diabetes worldwide, with type 2 DM making up about 90% of the cases", and so on.

while humans can survive eating pretty much anything, clearly, they do not thrive in the long term in a multitude of environments.

brute's diet is only "extreme" if compared with the current SAD, which is certainly "extreme" in terms of outcomes - see the facts above.

the idea that humans should eat 80% of their food as carbs is "extreme" in brute's view, whereas an all-meat diet he considers pretty "normal". this is because brute has recalibrated his "normal". the regular "normal" isn't working, and shunning "extreme" things is basically appeal to authority of scary words.

the claim that humans "need to eat lots of different things to meet their requirements" is demonstrably false for many definitions of "lots". brute has eaten this way for over a year, and similarly for years before that. brute eats 2-5 meals over and over again, almost always with the exact same ingredients. clearly, he doesn't need more variety, at least to survive, have good blood lipids, be active, and so on.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: brute journal

Post by ThisDinosaur » Sun May 28, 2017 2:49 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 1:23 pm
brute would like to contrast this with "30-50% of all humans in the US are considered overweight/obese", "As of 2015, an estimated 415 million people had diabetes worldwide, with type 2 DM making up about 90% of the cases", and so on.

while humans can survive eating pretty much anything, clearly, they do not thrive in the long term in a multitude of environments.
Let's agree that the overabundance of available calories in exchange for zero physical labor is a very unique situation in history. It would have been physically impossible for a hunter gatherer to find as much sugar in a month as you can get in a single can of soda today. Which is why no amount of exercise can compensate for a high calorie diet, no matter where those calories are coming from.

I'm sure you are familiar with the idea that calorie restriction extends lifespan in lots of different laboratory animals. More than that, it slows aging. That's because lower calories ->less "metabolism" -> less free radicals and reactive species that cause irreparable damage to cells and tissues.

A lot has been made about the complicated biochemical causes of obesity. Insulin, ghrelin, leptin, genetic predisposition, epigenetic factors... The truth is none of them have nearly the impact as total calories consumed over time on health outcomes. There is no doubt that some people have a harder time losing weight than others. But the most significant cause of this is behavioral. Ghrelin in particular influences satiety/hunger signals and makes it much harder for some people to stay on low calorie diets for long periods of time. But the common thread connecting diet, obesity, and metabolic syndrome is the calorie. If you have a diet that is restrictive, it is likely going to result in fewer calories consumed.

How else can you explain that an all-meat diet, a no-meat diet, and a some-meat diet but counting calories can all improve a person's health outcomes compared to a SAD diet?

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sun May 28, 2017 3:22 pm

brute fundamentally disagrees with that thesis. it is not about calories, it is about meal timing and certain chemicals and their reactions in the human body, namely hormone balance. brute strongly suspects that in those "calorie restriction" experiments, the fasting/feasting balance was really what contributed to the prolonged lifespan.

brute has tracked all calories for a month on his diet, and lost 10lbs while consuming in excess of 4,500kcal/day from mostly animal products, mostly fat, mostly. almost zero exercise.

calories are not a useful lens except in very specific circumstances.

it is actually very easy to explain various diets working, by the way: both the all-meat and the no-meat diet probably result in a lot less disturbance of hormones like insulin, ghrelin, leptin, and others.

the primary problem with the SAD, in brute's opinion, is NOT excess calories, it is that it mainly consists of hormone-disturbing ingredients like wheat, sugar, and PUFAs. reducing any or all of these is a huge improvement over the SAD, no matter if going in the meaty or vegan direction. while it is technically possible to be keto or vegan and still eat those shitty ingredients, typically, humans also move towards more whole, traditional foods as well. keto is simply more explicit about the goal of controlling blood sugar/hormones, whereas it's somewhat a side effect of many vegan (or other non-low-carbish) diets.

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Re: brute journal

Post by ThisDinosaur » Sun May 28, 2017 3:32 pm

How do you account for the thermogenic effect of food, or the basic thermodynamics of energy in / energy out?

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Re: brute journal

Post by James_0011 » Sun May 28, 2017 4:08 pm

Different foods have different thermogenic properties. So x calories of one food may not be the same as x of another in metabolic terms. Coconut oil and fructose are highly thermogenic for example.

Also, in those fasting studies, the control mice are basically fed poison. The calorie restricted mice didn't get as much poison in their food and didn't store it at all since they were fasting. So all those studies show is that less poison in your food/not storing poison in your cells makes you live longer. If you don't restrict calories but just eat healthy food you can get the same results as the fasted mice.

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Re: brute journal

Post by James_0011 » Sun May 28, 2017 4:10 pm

Also @Brute

I think you missed ray peats point, he specifically eats fruit for the hormonal effects not vitamins.

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Re: brute journal

Post by James_0011 » Sun May 28, 2017 4:13 pm

@Thedinosaur

I don't have the papers now but there is research showing that people in Victorian England ate significantly more calories than modern Americans and were much leaner. The only difference is that they ate high quality food.

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Re: brute journal

Post by jennypenny » Sun May 28, 2017 4:32 pm

You guys are harsh giving brute grief in his own journal. :P

+1 to most of what brute says about diet. I also sleep great now (and need very little sleep overall between diet and doing the polyphasic thing). I can't say a low carb diet is good for everyone but for some people it's literally a lifesaver.

Dr. Valter Longo at USC has done a lot of research on fasting diets if someone is curious about the research. Sachin Panda as well. I'm pretty sure there's a thread on here somewhere about it. Anecdotally ... I was part of a running group that was mostly physicians when I first had a few melanoma removed. They all told me to go low carb (I was already) because they said it would help starve the tumors. Another reason to keep glucose low.

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Re: brute journal

Post by ThisDinosaur » Sun May 28, 2017 4:34 pm

@james, which studies have poison in the control?

Wrt Victorians, remember that the calories measures by a bomb calorimeter may not be the same as the calories available to your body. It takes energy input to break down food enough so your cells can utilize the component molecules. Calories from processed (cooked, hulled, ground) foods are more available.

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Re: brute journal

Post by ThisDinosaur » Sun May 28, 2017 4:48 pm

@jp, im not picking on brute. If he's right, I'd like to be convinced.

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Re: brute journal

Post by jennypenny » Sun May 28, 2017 4:54 pm

@TD -- Found the thread with some links you might want to check out ... https://forum.earlyretirementextreme.co ... =26&t=6950

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Re: brute journal

Post by James_0011 » Sun May 28, 2017 5:12 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 4:34 pm
@james, which studies have poison in the control?

Wrt Victorians, remember that the calories measures by a bomb calorimeter may not be the same as the calories available to your body. It takes energy input to break down food enough so your cells can utilize the component molecules. Calories from processed (cooked, hulled, ground) foods are more available.
All of them. Rat "chow" is an industrial junk food and is fed to rats in almost all studies involving feeding.

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Re: brute journal

Post by C40 » Sun May 28, 2017 6:24 pm

I'd like to eat more meat, but the main reason I don't is the cost. I'd particularly like to start eating meat from grass fed quadrupeds, but that can be super expensive. Does BRUTE have any advice on getting meat inexpensively?

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Re: brute journal

Post by C40 » Sun May 28, 2017 6:34 pm

Also, I've been meaning to learn more about fats, and to adjust my fat intake accordingly. I haven't learned that much so far. I think BRUTE knows much more than me about this, so if BRUTE has any advice on if/how I should eat better fats, I'd appreciate it. Here's where nearly all my current fat intake comes from:

- Olive oil that I've used for cooking 2-3 meals per day. I'm not sure how much I end up eating. I go through something like 300ml per week. Maybe a bit more. I've been thinking about changing to steaming my food.
- Butter from grass fed cows. Maybe two tablespoons per day. I put this on my food after cooking it, so I'm eating all of it for sure
- Fish oil or flaxseed oil. About 2 softgels per day.
- MCT oil, about one swig of it per day
- The fat in whole chickens, about two chickens per week.
- About one can of Sardines per day (3.75oz of sardines), ideally wild caught from north in the pacific, but often maybe from the north pacific (canned in Poland if I recall correctly)

As I've made changes by adding the butter and MCT oil recently, I haven't noticed any difference in how I feel (whereas I notice huge and almost immediate differences by changing the ratio of grains vs. vegetables). Do you think I should make changes? What changes?
Last edited by C40 on Sun May 28, 2017 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: brute journal

Post by C40 » Sun May 28, 2017 6:37 pm

A lot of studies with rats are totally inaccurate. For example, things like putting a rat in a plain box all alone with absolutely nothing to do, and then adding a button that gives them cocaine. Of course they're going to use the cocaine when that's the only thing to do besides staring at a wall or walking in circles.

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BRUTE
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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sun May 28, 2017 7:13 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 3:32 pm
How do you account for the thermogenic effect of food, or the basic thermodynamics of energy in / energy out?
brute doesn't account for those. that's not to say they're not real, but brute thinks both are of minor importance, most of the time, for most humans.

the only actionable idea out of the thermogenic effect of food is eating tons of protein. turns out the amount of protein humans can digest is pretty limited, and most humans in the west get enough protein already. so shifting consumption towards more protein, in order to gain a bit of thermogenic inefficiency, is more of a gadget than a strategy or even tactic.

thermodynamics is not interesting to brute because it's a tautology. of course it's true, it's like saying that in order for the tub to contain less water, water must have left the tub. now what?

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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sun May 28, 2017 7:15 pm

James_0011 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 4:10 pm
Also @Brute

I think you missed ray peats point, he specifically eats fruit for the hormonal effects not vitamins.
brute has to admit he didn't all of Peat's posts, but he did skim about 10-15. he must've missed that part. he saw a bit about how sugar or fructose specifically counters free fatty acids in the blood, but since he loves free fatty acids, did not pay a lot of attention.

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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sun May 28, 2017 7:28 pm

C40 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 6:24 pm
I'd like to eat more meat, but the main reason I don't is the cost. I'd particularly like to start eating meat from grass fed quadrupeds, but that can be super expensive. Does BRUTE have any advice on getting meat inexpensively?
to be honest, there's probably not a good way to do it super cheaply. looking at C40s blog, he seems to spend about $300/mo on food. brute spends $300-400, depending, and that includes some free meals here or there, fasting a bit, but also a pretty lavish steak habit, avocados, 90% cocoa dark chocolate, MCT oil, grass fed butter.

it's going to be hard to get to rice & beans level. pretty much the cheapest meat brute's seen is bulk ground beef for $2.99/lb. that's a pretty fatty ground at 72/28, and it's probably not high quality meat. it tastes decent though.

there are some cheaper cuts out there like chuck roast, round, tri tip, but brute isn't a huge fan. maybe if C40 is into stews. but brute would rather just spend his time between ground beef/pork ($3-5/lb) and mid-end steak ($12-18/lb), and completely avoid the middle. brute's done steak-only for 30 days, and it's not that expensive - a bit above $400 for a month.

on an all-meat diet, humans typically eat between 1-2lbs of meat per day. 1lb would be pretty restrictive for the average human, of above mentioned fatty ground it would be around 2,500kcal. 2lbs would be for a pretty active or big human being. so theoretically, C40 could get away with $90-180/mo, but that would mean eating only ground beef and nothing else.

brute finds ground beef with nothing else pretty bland. just adding a bit of dairy like cream cheese or sour cream makes a huge difference. steak, on the other hand, is great on its own, in almost all forms.

lots of bacon & eggs could also be a cheap strategy.

to be honest, if there isn't a pressing need to control obesity or diabetes, it probably doesn't matter much for C40. brute would simply swap in high-end beef or game for enjoyment from time to time. it's more expensive, but it's more delicious. C40 can balance those going forward.

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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sun May 28, 2017 7:34 pm

C40 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 6:34 pm
Also, I've been meaning to learn more about fats, and to adjust my fat intake accordingly. I haven't learned that much so far. I think BRUTE knows much more than me about this, so if BRUTE has any advice on if/how I should eat better fats, I'd appreciate it. Here's where nearly all my current fat intake comes from:

- Olive oil that I've used for cooking 2-3 meals per day. I'm not sure how much I end up eating. I go through something like 300ml per week. Maybe a bit more. I've been thinking about changing to steaming my food.
- Butter from grass fed cows. Maybe two tablespoons per day. I put this on my food after cooking it, so I'm eating all of it for sure
- Fish oil or flaxseed oil. About 2 softgels per day.
- MCT oil, about one swig of it per day
- The fat in whole chickens, about two chickens per week.
- About one can of Sardines per day (3.75oz of sardines), ideally wild caught from north in the pacific, but often maybe from the north pacific (canned in Poland if I recall correctly)

As I've made changes by adding the butter and MCT oil recently, I haven't noticed any difference in how I feel (whereas I notice huge and almost immediate differences by changing the ratio of grains vs. vegetables). Do you think I should make changes? What changes?
it depends on C40's goals. judging from his blog, C40 is a very active, outdoorsy, relatively lean, male in his mid 30s. there seems very little direct need for dietary intervention. C40 is already consuming plenty of the good fats, and apparently few of the bad ones (pressed grain/vegetable oils).

brute would recommend trying to get more calories from fat in general. fat is very energy dense and very delicious, especially the saturated ones taste great. many humans just don't realize how little mass they need to eat on a high-fat diet, and how good it can taste. on the other hand, meat doesn't store well in a van compared to fruits or vegetables. lard and other saturated fats don't need to be refrigerated though.

some marathoners swear by ketosis for ultra endurance. apparently, there's no wall or bonking in ketosis. C40 could explore that for the hiking or biking if he's interested. brute finds that for more metcon workouts (e.g. not slow-endurance), he performs worse on keto/while fasted, whereas it doesn't seem to matter much for high intensity/short duration like lifting. brute doesn't like slow-endurance, so he hasn't tested that out himself.

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Re: brute journal

Post by James_0011 » Sun May 28, 2017 8:07 pm

C40 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 6:34 pm
Also, I've been meaning to learn more about fats, and to adjust my fat intake accordingly. I haven't learned that much so far. I think BRUTE knows much more than me about this, so if BRUTE has any advice on if/how I should eat better fats, I'd appreciate it. Here's where nearly all my current fat intake comes from:

- Olive oil that I've used for cooking 2-3 meals per day. I'm not sure how much I end up eating. I go through something like 300ml per week. Maybe a bit more. I've been thinking about changing to steaming my food.
- Butter from grass fed cows. Maybe two tablespoons per day. I put this on my food after cooking it, so I'm eating all of it for sure
- Fish oil or flaxseed oil. About 2 softgels per day.
- MCT oil, about one swig of it per day
- The fat in whole chickens, about two chickens per week.
- About one can of Sardines per day (3.75oz of sardines), ideally wild caught from north in the pacific, but often maybe from the north pacific (canned in Poland if I recall correctly)

As I've made changes by adding the butter and MCT oil recently, I haven't noticed any difference in how I feel (whereas I notice huge and almost immediate differences by changing the ratio of grains vs. vegetables). Do you think I should make changes? What changes?
Please consider re thinking the fish oil:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtml

I think general it's super important to carefully evaluate what one puts into their body. You seem to be on the right track!

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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Sun May 28, 2017 8:41 pm

while brute isn't sure that fish oils in that dosage are super harmful, he personally doesn't take any. tried it once, didn't notice any difference. strangely, he didn't get any fishy burps either, which many humans report.

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Re: brute journal

Post by James_0011 » Mon May 29, 2017 7:11 am

BRUTE wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 8:41 pm
while brute isn't sure that fish oils in that dosage are super harmful, he personally doesn't take any. tried it once, didn't notice any difference. strangely, he didn't get any fishy burps either, which many humans report.
You're into paleo stuff right? From that perspective there is no way that humans are adapted to omega 3 consumption - humans are tropical animals and omega 3s only exist in cold waters. There are no omega 3 rich fish in the Tropics. The omega 3s won't oxidize in the cold water but will at normal human body temperature.

Also think about bears, they eat a lot of salmon and other omega 3 rich fish before they hibernate in order to slow down their metabolism and enter a torpor for winter. When they come out of hibernation they switch to berry consumption amoung other things and don't start fish again until the fall before hibernation.

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Re: brute journal

Post by ThisDinosaur » Mon May 29, 2017 9:22 am

BRUTE wrote:
thermodynamics is not interesting to brute because it's a tautology. of course it's true, it's like saying that in order for the tub to contain less water, water must have left the tub. now what?
No, my question is, how can one lose weight without reducing calories? I used to believe the hormone hypothesis, too. I argued its not how much you eat, but what you eat, that determines body composition. That the difference lies in changes in BMR. But I changed my opinion when i realized that growing more fat, an anabolic process, requires a larger input of energy/calories than is even stored in the fat itself. The connection between diet and markers of bad health is obesity. And obesity is about calories.

@james, I liked that link. I'll be reading more Ray Peat. Here's a good exercise for anyone who is interested in this stuff. Pick your favorite nutrient or health food. Now find all the articles you can that describe why its bad for you. Give the author the benefit of the doubt and try to really understand their argument.

@jp
Ive read through that thread before. I think a lot of the evidence for IF is strong. I dont do it, though, because i found that my willpower to make good food choices was reduced after i have been fasting. Strictly a behavioral issue for me. Ive never been overweight, so i have very little motivation to starve myself only to binge later.

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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Mon May 29, 2017 11:46 am

James_0011 wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 7:11 am
You're into paleo stuff right?
not too much. it's a nice narrative with too many exceptions to be useful beyond that.

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Re: brute journal

Post by BRUTE » Mon May 29, 2017 11:48 am

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 9:22 am
No, my question is, how can one lose weight without reducing calories?
again, it's tautological, if "lose weight" means "lose body fat". there are x calories stored as body fat in ThisDinosaurs body. if he reduces the fat, he reduced the calories.

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