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Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:17 pm
by detect_148
@Did Thank you as well. I appreciate your kindness.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:31 am
by detect_148
Update October 2016

Total Liquid: $79980.68
Net Worth: $173363.21
Annual Expenses: $19632.72
Progress Towards ERE: 35.32%
Time Remaining: 4 years

Thoughts: I have finally internalized my understanding of the Roth conversion ladder which I see as an ideal strategy for accessing my pretax funds after retirement. This is going to be my strategy going forward so that I can try to avoid as much income tax as possible. Furthermore, I've hit the spreadsheets and tweaked my analysis again. I'm looking at about 4 more years of working at my current pace, but between now and then I'm going to push for another job change and relocation to further compress that. I will now count my progress as a basis of total net worth rather than liquidity.

Overall this month was expensive because I paid for two flights, but this will allow me to visit with some good friends and get out and travel.

Success: I learned a few new recipes this month and started making some new products from my beehive. I'm finalizing a propolis intinction which I'll be able to use as a pseudo antibiotic and I processed some wax which I make candles out of.

Challenges: I've been climbing so much that I've been neglecting my cardio. I went biking with my cousin and he stomped me in terms of pace on uphill riding. Need to work on that.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:16 pm
by detect_148
I am very glad to be able to write this post right now. I have been absent for some time because I had trouble logging into my account (I am terrible with technology).

Since my most recent update late last year, there have been no major changes in my work situation, lifestyle, living situation, etc. I have just been enjoying myself as much as possible and continuing to work on hobbies and enjoy life. I have been doing a lot more reading and am currently working on a book about the history of the French Revolution. Most recent read was a book called "Autobiography of a Yogi". I'm finding religion/spirituality to be an important component of my ERE experience as it supplements all other practical reasons for rejecting a materialistic lifestyle.

Financially and in terms of my lifestyle, I have made some noteworthy steps towards FI. My income is now quite a bit higher due to a raise + title change without any change in job responsibility. I am slowly compressing my monthly spending and even managed (emotionally) to sell off my previously cherished set of golf clubs. Of course, I am still saving and investing as much as I can and have been helped by good market returns. I now have enough set aside that I would feel comfortable retiring to a country with a lower cost of living. I would like to spend time traveling abroad in India, Africa, and South America after retirement. However, I am currently happy with my life's circumstances and am feeling encouraged by the pace of my forward progress. For this reason, I intend to continue with the ERE path until I feel confident in my ability to afford retirement at home in the United States should that be my intent in the future.

These are the latest numerics:

Total Liquid Investments/Cash: $121,457.24

Total Net Worth (including retirement accounts): $259,913.94

Annual Expenses: $19,637.00

Progress Towards ERE: 52.94%

Time Remaining to FI: 2 years 6 months

Current goals are a continued focus on fitness/health and interpersonal relationships and developing my beekeeping hobby/obsession/potential future income stream. I'm now up to three hives and the honey is becoming bountiful.

Image

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:39 am
by Jason
One of my customer's is a European Fancy Food importer who recently expanded their product line to include natural honey. There has been a spike in natural honey sales because of its health benefits. Most store stocked honey is processed by the multi-national agro sucrose pushers. Bottle that shit up.

And now, in honor of your entrepreneurial endeavors, a brief time out to listen to my favorite song and reminisce of driving around tony Connecticut with my rich girlfriend calling me a stupid asshole after I spilled all our cocaine on her father's floor mats:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EgB__YratE

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:48 pm
by onewayfamily
Amazing progress mate!

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:44 pm
by detect_148
Update: October 2017

Thanks Jason and onewayfamily for the comments. I have had countless folks ask to buy my honey. People at work that I had never met before approached me to buy honey after hearing through word of mouth that I am a beekeeper. So this spring, I definitely do plan to bottle it up and sell it and give the people what they want.

Things are going pretty well here. I just got back from a week long desert/mountain camping trip in southern California and had a great time. The desert ecosystem was fascinating with the tarantulas, coyotes, sage, Joshua trees, landscape, striking night skies, and abandoned homesteads lining the highway. Metal detecting proved fruitless due to high iron content in the soil that kept tripping me up. I thought to myself whether or not I could move to the desert for retirement. I think it would be incredibly peaceful, have a much lower cost of living, and provide an interesting change of pace, but the amenities that I enjoy in the Bay Area are certainly lacking (weather, extensive library network, ocean, social networks, etc.). Work has been busy, but is not stressing me out too much. I have been busy preparing my bees for winter, doing final mite treatments before they start becoming more dormant. I'm also experimenting with solar wax bleaching and plan to make a batch of candles for the fall and holiday season as gifts. Also cashing in airline miles for gift cards to use as Christmas gifts for family. So many cheap ways to give!

In the financial world, I am continuing to save and reduce consumer expenses gradually. I have also improved my forecasting spreadsheet which I found had some errors and also added healthcare spending which has not been a part of my reported expenses up to now. This is mostly due to laziness from the relative inaccessibility of the information. In any case, I'm going to monitor healthcare expenses because it will help me hold myself accountable for unnecessary doctor visits and will also provide motivation to ditch my thieving dentist that also finds BS excuses to charge me for services that aren't covered by my insurance. Something I want to start learning about is Obamacare, healthcare systems, etc. so I can understand how to manage health insurance/health care spending in retirement.

Finances are pretty much on autopilot right now. The big challenge for me is to continue to have patience and focus on finding enjoyment in spite of the fact that I spend most of my days slaving away in the corporate world. I've thought about going into semiretirement early via a career change it something more fun (candle making / something bee related), but I have resolved to think that its a better idea to keep these as hobbies and stick with the high income job until I reach a 4% SWR.

Total Liquid Investments: $132,893.18

Net Worth: $289,181.37

Annual Expenses: $20,402.16

Progress Towards ERE: 56.70%

Time Remaining: 2 years 3 months

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:56 pm
by detect_148
Hello people,

So here is the current situation. Work has been a drag lately between long, stressful hours and several management changes that have dissolved my political alliances and changed the demands of my job. I've recently been informed that I will be demoted pending the hire of a person to fill my position. There is no change to my job title or compensation, just adding a layer of management above me that will absorb some of my responsibilities.

I could continue to grind it out and reach FI after about 18 - 20 months, which isn't very long in the scheme of things, but I am burnt out and it has become hard to keep going. I could leave, take some time off, pursue other things. I have plenty of financial security in place to do so, but if I need to come back to the corporate world, I anticipate that it will be hard for a number of reasons. I don't really want to be in that situation.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:13 pm
by halfmoon
detect_148 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:56 pm
I've recently been informed that I will be demoted pending the hire of a person to fill my position. There is no change to my job title or compensation, just adding a layer of management above me that will absorb some of my responsibilities.
If you'd rather be retired than pursue your career, how is getting the same pay for less responsibility a bad thing? It sounds as though you could cruise through the next 20 months, save like crazy, and leave in a pretty good position.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:01 am
by detect_148
Thanks Half moon, I was thinking the same thing myself at first. Unfortunately, they haven't found anyone to fill the job yet so my situation hasn't improved much. I'm now leaning in the direction of just looking for a new job and a fresh start. Every workplace has it's issues, but I've had enough for awhile of the cutthroat politics and toxic workplace culture. Thankfully I have the financial security to step away from it and I'm grateful to this community for that.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:40 pm
by detect_148
Long time without an update now. Lots of changes. I was able to work out a very favorable job transfer. Same company, same salary, much less stress. I'll also be relocating out of the Bay Area to the east coast to an area with an astronomically lower cost of living in comparison. To the extent that I could pay cash for a house if I wanted to for the first time in my life. I will really miss living in the Bay Area. Sure, folks like to complain about the traffic and the cost of living, but I feel like I really had my lifestyle hacked. I lived close to work with very little traffic. I rented a room from a nice family and I got along with the other tenants extremely well. I made a lot of great friends here and had a lot of memorable life experiences. The hiking and outdoors experiences were unforgettable.

My quality of life should improve on many fronts after I move due to how demanding work has become. I'll have time to exercise frequently again, pursue beekeeping more seriously, and really focus on my personal life. It will be a nice way to transition towards ERE as I anticipate that I am approximately one year away from being financially independent. At the moment I have around 18 - 19 years expenses and feel no necessity to push towards lower than a 4% withdrawal rate.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:08 pm
by detect_148
Hello Folks,

I hope you all are well this evening. Time for an update from my end. I have now been living in the southeast for roundabout two month's time. My new living arrangements worked out quite nice. I rent a spacious room in a home near downtown with three other roommates. Unfortunately, I'm a little further from work than I used to be, but I can walk to the required amenities including the library, grocery store, tennis courts, and a large urban park. I am happy with the location. I've done some hiking in some of the surrounding forests, but have a great deal more of the local scenic destinations to explore. My focus since the move has been acclimating to my new habitat and job. My work has been astonishingly agreeable by comparison to my last employment situation. I am in a low pressure work environment and position. The culture is much more low stress, slow paced, and go with the flow. In addition, the hours are more predictable, consistent, and notably less than previously.

As a result of these changes and also having more free time, my health has improved tremendously. I enrolled in a local gym and have been doing some weightlifting, but mostly rowing on the Concept 2. I alternate between doing 90 minute workouts and 10k distance workouts. My best 10k pace is just above 2:07/500m. I am normally very active, but had not been so in the first half of 2018 and it is great to be getting back into it.

My diet has also gone through some interesting changes. Though I am not currently bee-right, I have put a lot of work into gardening in the backyard. I have cucumbers, peppers, tomatoes, carrots, chives, kale (albeit sad and bug ridden), and basil. I hope to subsist, in part, off my harvest later in the summer and also share with the roommates and friends. I have also developed a budding interest in mycology spurred by the great abundance in boletus and chantrelles in this area. I have been gathering an average of 2 pounds per week of chantrelles for the past five weeks and subsisting off of them as a primary part of my diet. The fact that they are tantalizing and pull in around $40/pound in the local market makes it all the sweeter. I aspire to get better at finding and identifying edible boletus and hopefully morels in the spring as well. The only drawback to this new interest is that I can no longer enjoy the scenic views and forested canopies on my hikes. Rather, my eyes are glued compulsively to the forest floor, scouring constantly for my next prize. If anyone out there shares this interest and can offer any tips on foraging, I am all ears. I'd especially like to get better at tree identification so I can target specific mychorizal hosts.

Financially things are shaping up quite well. My net worth is right around 20 years of expenses and I'm feeling as though I've reached the home stretch. Barring any surprises I may be able to declare myself financially independent by early 2019, but I will need to dig into details at that point like healthcare costs and how to finance any immediate plans/life changes after leaving my job. Still, I may just try and hold out a year longer so I don't have to pay back my relocation expenses to my employer which are not anything to write off.

I hope you are all finding enjoyment and fulfillment in your experiences.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:21 am
by SavingWithBabies
Congratulations on the move and the positive changes in your work-life balance. It is interesting that the same company has much different work-life balances at different offices. But maybe local culture overrides the bigger? In any case, that sounds wonderful and foraging for mushrooms sounds like a lot of fun.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:06 pm
by detect_148
Long overdue update. Thanks SavingWithBabies for the comment. Even though I am working for the same company things have been a lot better because I am working with different clients in my new role.

Not much has changed in the way of lifestyle. I am living in the same location and working at the same job. Work is going swimmingly, low stress, good pay. Keeping up with diet, exercise and sleep routine. My garden is doing well. I grew many different types of plants from seed this year and have been using this produce to supplement my diet. My net worth has grown quite a bit since my last update, but my expenses have also crept up on me so I am making expense control my focus as I work on the last 6 months or so of this ere project. The increase in expenses is mostly related to eating at restaurants while going on dates. I currently have around 21 years of expenses saved. FI is possible at the moment through expense reduction without gains in net worth, but I will continue full time employment in tandem with expense reduction initiatives.

As I discussed in my last post, I have been working on mushroom and tree identification skills both of which have improved tremendously. I am now beginning to have an interest in mushroom cultivation as a food source and possible side hustle so that is an area I am now exploring and building skills in. Since last posting I have foraged oyster, lions mane, chicken of the woods, maitake, morels, and many other edible mushroom varieties.

I recently ended a 7 month relationship that ultimately was a very joyful and rewarding experience for both of us. We get along great and will remain friends. I became convinced that the relationship would significantly complicate my ere outlook due to partner's desire to have children and her student loans.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:15 pm
by detect_148
At this point I have reached the point where i have 25 times expenses saved, but I don't want to rush into calling myself FIRE ready. There are only a few things keeping me working at this point.

1) Lack of vesting. I moved for my current job and was given a relocation package that I will need to reimburse the company for if I leave (in part). I have about 8 months left until vesting.

2) Acknowledgement of the benefit of benefits. The benefits of my job distort my expenses in a way that I would need to compensate for if I quit working. For one, my healthcare expenses are significantly lower than they would be if I were unemployed. I have done some reading on how to work within the framework of the affordable care act to obtain coverage and claim the tax credit, but I want to understand it better and learn how to optimize the amount of my credit and the amount of tax deferred funds that I am rolling over to roth accounts each year. I know this is a common dilemma and well documented by others so I just need to take the time to work out an individualized strategy. I also am grateful for work for providing my with a nice telephone and data plan, but I will either learn to do without this or obtain a low cost alternative after retirement.

3) Fear of being destitute. I just got done watching a youtube video in which they interviewed homeless people in San Francisco. I like listening to the stories about their lives leading up to the position where they have now found themselves. There are a lot of differences between them and myself and the people on this forum that led to their decline. However, I am humble enough to know that I am human and therefore, fallible. Besides, I am not in 100% control of everything that could derail me, the most probable culprit being catastrophic health issues. I just need to understand the risk I am taking and always have a plan B. If anyone has any thoughts on this topic and how you manage it, I would appreciate some feedback.

4) Loss of power. I feel that there is immense power in having 'disposable' income in our society. It creates opportunity, flexibility, and it commands the respect, admiration, and attention of our peers. As much as I wish to be morally righteous enough to happily abandon it, I have some transforming to do in the meantime. Especially as a single man, I must acknowledge that there are few women that will date a willfully unemployed man. Am I willing to narrow my options even further in that department? I would be lying if I told you I didn't want to get laid at least once in awhile.

With all of that said, I am significantly motivated by the plethora of opportunities ERE will open up in my life once I choose to accept it. I am planning to help my family out with a few projects they are working on which will take a few months and then to depart to live abroad / travel inexpensively for some time. I do intend to be in the United States in the long run. With the inefficient and often unethical way in which our tax dollars are often spent, I also see it as admirable to not work when one is able and willing to do so (even though the spending deficit will be financed). Relying primarily on dividend, interest, business income, and capital gains offers some great advantages to minimize tax burden.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:02 am
by detect_148
Since declaring myself ERE I have had much more thought bandwidth to ruminate about things besides personal finance which has been a central motivator for the past few years (I see this pattern on other forums as well). Even after a couple of months of rumination I have noticed a change in myself and my attitude in a few particular areas that render several of the postulates in my last forum post almost unrecognizable. I will expand upon this statement for my own benefit to solidify my thoughts and hopefully perhaps for the benefit of others.

1. Health - I have always been labeled as a skinny person and I have always had a positive self perception of my body. This is primarily because I am tall and can carry much more weight than others with little perceptible change in my body composition. I have also always physically exerted myself to a substantially greater degree than the average USA citizen. Consequently, I didn't give much thought to my health and I left things on auto-pilot. I even have eating habits that were considered healthy by most people's standards. I rarely eat processed foods, cook most of my meals, target low sodium consumption, don't drink soda, rarely drink alcohol, etc. However, I have begun to more consciously think about this area of my life as it pertains to my future well being and potential long term health care costs and I have found that I am left wanting.

The first realization that I had was that I allow myself to indulge in sugar with complete lack of self restraint. Simply put, I have a sweet tooth. I was drawn to this realization by reading about the effects of sugar on the brain and the connection with Alzheimer's disease which I have, unfortunately, seen progressing in more than one of my elder family members. To increase my chances of long term health and wellness, I came to the realization that I needed to cut back on sugar, even though I may see no short term health benefits of doing so. To my surprise, I actually did see a few health term benefits of cutting back on sugar. For over a month now, I have consumed no foods with added sugar (I cheated twice because it would have been impolite to refuse as a guest). I noticed a significant reduction in my systolic blood pressure as well as a feeling of complete alertness upon waking (improved sleep quality, perhaps). I have also lost somewhere in the realm of 5 - 10 pounds coupled with more controlled portion sizes and increased exercise.

I have also begun working on improved body composition (lower fat percentage, increased muscle mass). This isn't for aesthetics, it is for myself and the long term health benefits. Furthermore, being as tall as I am, it may not even be noticeable to the casual observer if I were to lose 10 pounds of fat and replace it with muscle, but we shall see once I get there. The main thing is to cut back on visceral fat to protect my cardiovascular system which others in my family have struggled with. I would also like to build more muscle to make it seem within the realm of possibility to cycle to work on a daily basis and protect my joints for long term mobility. I believe that I have an ethical imperative to cycle to work to reduce my consumption of fossil fuels. Staying healthy will also decrease health care costs in the long run and decrease my dependence on the health care system which appears to be over utilized at the moment.

2. Personal Relationships - I am currently reading Dostoyevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov." The book was published not long before Dostoyevsky's death and he strikes me as equal parts philosopher and novelist. For this reason it was particularly interesting to read the passage in the book in which the elder monk, Father Zossima, spoke to his students on his deathbed. To me it felt like the author was speaking directly to the reader as a moral teacher. The chapter called, "The Grand Inquisitor" also takes on this air. In these passages, Dostoyevsky makes some observations about the nature of humanity that are central to ERE philosophy. For example, he examines the causes of economic inequality and why some become wealthy and most do not. He points out that the masses do not have a will to self mastery and revel in self destructive behavior because of their inability to satisfy their envy and greed. He also points out that the wealthy (and all people in general) have an ever increasing tendency towards self isolation in their quest of fulfillment and multiplication of personal desires. It appears clear that the tendency towards self isolation has increased significantly in western society in our current era with the improvements to information technology. Furthermore, the author points out that each individual is responsible for the well being of all other humans on earth and that heaven on Earth can be realized if only we all understood and embraced this.

These particular observations about humanity led me to begin critiquing myself quite harshly. As anyone does when they are building wealth, self mastery must increasingly be obtained in order to achieve success. This will differentiate one from the rest of society in a significant way even if it is not recognizable on a surface level. I do feel a great responsibility for other people and I would like to bring others with me on the ERE journey, but I have no idea how to do this and I'm not sure to what degree it is possible unless someone makes the decision to change entirely on their own. I have also, at certain periods of my life, had a tendency to isolate myself, especially due to lack of like minded people to affiliate myself with. I am getting better at being connected to my community since realizing the value of social capital, but it's something I need to continue to get better at. I think social capital is at least on par with and perhaps more valuable that financial capital in some respects. Once I retire, I want to find ways to continue to contribute to society and connect with others on a frequent basis. Perhaps this is just my extrovert showing, but I have seen the effects of isolation and what it does to people and it is quite depressing.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:50 am
by detect_148
A lot has changed in the past few months. I have been successfully living a lean, ERE lifestyle having cut out restaurants, caffeine, and peanut butter which were the last of my few remaining vices. I have also been doing hella burpees for physical fitness and reading and language learning for mental fitness.

Recently, a group of reptilian shapeshifters unleashed a contagion in the midst of the human race. Their aim is to eliminate those unfit for servitude so that the survivors can be enslaved or farmed for food. Those already in positions of control have orchestrated mass panic in order to issue a death blow to the current economic and political systems, ushering in a new world order of supreme reptilian authority.

You may be wondering how to adequately prepare for such a scenario. This is a great question and I will edify you on my response. I have not sold any of my financial assets at this time. Alas, money and other financial interests will be useless once the new world order has been established. Instead, I have begun buying more stocks in hopes that the humans will emerge victorious at which point I will emerge wealthy and assume a bourgeois, urban lifestyle. More likely, however, I will either be killed by the contagion or another panicked human at the grocery store seeking the last of the organic yellow onions.

I am also fabricating a bow and arrows out of locally harvested bamboo. There are several reasons for this. I anticipate the need to hunt birds and small mammals until spring and its natural forage emerges in my locality. Also, modern weapons are not useful against the reptilians, as their telepathy is able to manipulate electronics and objects composed of metal. As you read this, I am resoundingly certain that the reptilians are already on their way to my domicile to apprehend me, for I know the truth. I stand ready and waiting to plunge my arrows into their cold blooded eyes and feast on their flesh.

I invite all those of you brave enough to join me in a battle for the future.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:03 pm
by detect_148
I haven’t seen a lot of people talk about foraging on here, but I hope you folks have at least done some experimenting with it. I have gotten extremely good at foraging mushrooms over the past few years, but I never felt like I could use that skill to offset my food spending in any meaningful way due to their low calorie content. It was rather just a way to produce tinctures and add some flavor and variety to my home cooking. However, nut foraging has been a game changer for me. There was a bumper crop of black walnuts and pecans this year in my area and after spending the month of October gathering them, I now have easily several hundred pounds of nuts in shell. I’ve learned the process of dehusking the walnuts and drying/curing them and bought a device to easily crack their hard shells.

Nuts are expensive to buy in the store, but I never realized how easy it is to get them for free. On top of that, the flavor of foraged nuts is divine by comparison. Black walnuts are typically harder to find in the store and their flavor is completely different than the less favorable english walnut that is cultivated commercially. I’m sure these fresh nuts are much healthier than the store bought alternatives and with their high calorie content, long shelf life and nutritional content, they are of immense value to me.

Since last posting, I have been playing frisbee golf multiple times per week. It turned out to be favorable activity considering the covid situation throughout this year, but it is also free to play and I have never had to purchase a disc. If you look hard enough, it is easy to find lost discs in the woods and most people don’t bother to write their phone number on them. There is a large local community of frisbee golfers making it a good way to socialize too. Overall, it is a very ERE friendly pursuit.

As far as finances go, my net worth has blown up this year because of the stock market recovery and my expenses have gone down a bit due to changes in my spending habits related to Covid and also relocating to a more affordable dwelling. My withdrawal rate currently stands at 2.94%. I am in a solid position to leave my job whenever I want to. The only reason I don’t is because I am, admittedly, a coward. To overcome this, I need to become more comfortable with the uncertainty of changing my life in a meaningful way and develop a more clear vision of what I want out of life because up to this point, I’ve been pretty much mindlessly drifting along with no macro sense of direction. I think my motivation for ERE has mostly come from a mistrust/hatred of authority and desire to carry my childhood with me into adulthood. In spite of having achieved ERE, my childhood is nonetheless over and I need to come to grips with that so I can move forward.

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:41 am
by wolf
detect_148 wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:38 pm
Total liquid assets: $15900.47
Total annual spending: $21362.28
Progress towards ERE: 2.97%

Thoughts: :o I have a long way to go!
Not as long as you thought back in 2015. Wow, impressing progress, considering your age! Well done. What are your plans for the foreseeable future?

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:27 am
by basuragomi
Thanks for the frolf tip. There is a frolf course a bike ride away and I always wanted to try it out but asking gearheads for disc recommendations is an offputting experience.

What happens if you re-examine your vision for life and you still find a place in it for paid employment? Is it still cowardice if you work because you enjoy it?

Re: The Path to Freedom

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:53 pm
by 7Wannabe5
Frolf can also be a lucrative activity. I used to hike in an area frequented by frat boy frolf players and they always left tons of returnable bottles and cans strewn about.