Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Where are you and where are you going?
2Birds1Stone
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

TopHatFox wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:39 pm
What'd you do to earn 6 figs again, sales, coding, engineering, or?
Sold software to mid/large sized companies for 5 years. No prior experience, grossed $109k first year, $175k my best year. Top reps (top 20%) typically make $250-300kyr, and top 5% earn $400-500k/yr. That's once you've cracked into the enterprise space (selling to Fortune 1000 in field). I started off in inside sales and did that for my first 2 years.

bostonimproper
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by bostonimproper »

Unless you have a sincere interest in engineering outside the $, I'd recommend software sales over development any day of the week. Too many bootcamps churning out unprepared entry-level applicants for junior development positions -> lots of competition to break into the role. If you're good at it, compensation potential is basically the same. Plus you get a lot more time talking with people which, from what I can tell from your journal, seems to be your strength/important to you.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:14 pm
Sold software to mid/large sized companies for 5 years. No prior experience, grossed $109k first year, $175k my best year. Top reps (top 20%) typically make $250-300kyr, and top 5% earn $400-500k/yr. That's once you've cracked into the enterprise space (selling to Fortune 1000 in field). I started off in inside sales and did that for my first 2 years.
Hm, do you still have your old contacts, like someone I could e-mail? I think what I didn't like about my executive recruiting role was that it was predominantly research oriented rather than talking to people/giving presentations.

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Viktor K
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Viktor K »

I've been thinking of trying to learn a programming language or something.
It's easy to figure out if it's a path you want. Literally, will take less than an hour. If you're visual-linguistic, kinaesthetic learner like me, Codecademy/FCC are probably your best bet. Read how to do something, try it in their editor. FCC has projects that you can add to your portfolio later when trying to get a job. Other types of learners may prefer YouTube or udemy style courses instead.

Ideally, if you get any satisfaction in working through the tutorials and then overcoming all the tiny challenges in building a project, then it's just a matter of time to get a first job doing it. Codecademy has Python, C#, and JavaScript. FCC is pretty exclusively catered to JavaScript (i.e. web development).

I didn't spend a $ on learning to code and, while I was learning, it was just like any of my other hobbies. There were times when I was out and about and just wished I was back home figuring out that solution to whatever problem I was working on. It's a social enough job, I have to talk to customers (I build code for a company, so my customers are my coworkers that use our platforms), teammates (I have question how to do something, other dev has question how to do something, etc), but it's not really a "Oh, let me help you with processing your life" style of conversations. That's why I suggest just you see if you enjoy coding/learning to code, before considering it as a career.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

Viktor K wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:32 am
It's easy to figure out if it's a path you want. Literally, will take less than an hour. If you're visual-linguistic, kinaesthetic learner like me, Codecademy/FCC are probably your best bet. Read how to do something, try it in their editor. FCC has projects that you can add to your portfolio later when trying to get a job. Other types of learners may prefer YouTube or udemy style courses instead.
I agree that trying it sounds like a great idea before jumping into a career. Are Codecademy & FCC free, and which of the two would you recommend I try first?

Also, will I need a CS degree or masters or certs to get a job if I end up liking it? How long did it take you to learn to become proficient enough to do it as a job, and how'd you find your job?

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Viktor K
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Viktor K »

Codecademy is free but has a Pro version which I didn't use until I got a job because they reimburse me. And if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't pay for it because the added features aren't worth it. Unfortunately, some of their languages (e.g. Python) are locked behind the Pro membership. FCC is 100% free.

For web developer, my recommendation is somewhat counter-norm in that I suggest JavaScript first. First, it's what I did. So, it has to be right. Really, though, I still see many people do HTML and CSS, spend way too much time mastering those, then hit JavaScript like a wall.

My 100% free path was:
  • Codecademy JavaScript: Way meatier than it needs to be at the end, but a very in-depth look. I recommend taking notes to help cement the knowledge of each section.
  • FCC's HTML, CSS, and JS sections: These have changed and are more in depth than when I did them. A lot can be skipped until later. The JS is like a review after Codecademy. But FCC has projects built into their curriculum and they're super useful.
  • Codecademy PHP and all their free SQL courses: This step can potentially be skipped. I don't recommend PHP, but SQL is still widely used and really easy to learn. I did this part because I was making my own website and was thinking about maybe doing WordPress freelancing. Important to note, a lot of companies do use SQL, mine included.
  • Did some personal projects in here, namely making my first portfolio website.
  • Codecademy React course: Super good React course, although I haven't seen the latest version. React uses JS and is one of the pretty much required frameworks for a web developer. Alternatives to this are Vue.js (used by my job, growing, 3rd most popular I think) or Angular (wouldn't recommend for new developer/current market. Learn it if it's what's used in your market).
  • Built a bunch of personal projects using React in here. Mostly stuff to help with running my D&D campaign. And learned and started using Github
  • FCC's full-stack section: This teaches you MongoDB (a noSQL database, the alternative to SQL in the market, but personally none of the jobs I applied for used it), Mongoose, Express, and Node (can write JavaScript on the backend as opposed to Python/C#). The projects in this section are what I featured on my Resume and portfolio to get a job.
If you can get through Codecademy's JS course, then you can do the rest. That's another reason I recommend starting with it.

You don't need a CS degree but it would make getting your first develop job interview easier. I have an International Affairs and Chinese double major.

What you need to get a job are:
  • An effective, polished resume
  • Cover letters?
  • Portfolio
  • Polished LinkedIn
  • Patience
I believe I succeeded because I a) liked the challenge and learning, b) enjoy problem solving more than I thought, c) wanted a hard skill that could earn me money (thanks ERE community), d) practiced enough self-discipline to code or study nearly every day, e) can easily get hyper-focused on finishing something.

Bootcamps are an alternative. 3 months, paid, and you'll come out with more or less the same knowledge/skills that I have, maybe minus some gaps since I didn't know what I didn't know. But you need to be the best of the bootcamp graduates, since dozens are graduated every day. And there's a huge financial opportunity cost. I would recommend the FCC forums if you try coding, like it, and want to take a crack at doing it professionally, eventually. Very helpful community that I disappeared to for a few months earlier this year while I was nearing job-readiness and during my job search.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@Viktor, cool, I'll start an account at CodeCademy and work my way through the tutorial. Maybe AC just made its intro class seem impossible and that's why me and 3/4's of the class quit, or maybe coding is just not for me; we'll find out! Either way, coding is one of the only skills that pays a lot for remote work, so it's worth looking into. What are good coding bootcamps, and are they really paid, I've heard some cost 15k?

@2Birds, Sales does too, and maybe you can help there too!

----------

On relationships, for any of you struggling, I found Game by #1 public enemy Roosh V to be one of the best books for contemporary millennial/gen z dating. It's super red-pill, but I think my style is now a mixture of AC PC rhetoric combined with red pill cynicism haha. As far as the role of relationships, nowadays they simply seem to be an interesting way to pass the time, emotionally and physically. It's a weird balancing act between liking the women enough to want to get attached, but realizing that they can leave at any point and then you have to enjoy your life enough to do it while alone, or find another one. Perhaps monogamy is foolish in that way, because if that one person leaves you have nothing + pain in line with how long the relationship was and how attached you were. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I've leaned on poly and still do. I've also noticed that if you do go through the bullshit of attracting a woman to say she wants to be your gf, you find out if that's really true after about the 3 month mark, and then again after a week or more of living together down the line. It seems almost parallel to the bullshit of securing a job, and then making it through the 3-month trial period.

-----------

I'm finding it hilarious that as of April 2020, I'll have gone through 26 years of formal education just to then have to self-teach myself trade skills or coding to get a good paying, flexible job. Either I fucked up (probably), or the education system wasn't made to work for its students in the first place.

CS
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by CS »

You don't give anything enough time to know for sure, from what I see.

See the Valley of Disappointment in Atomic Habits for more info...

EdithKeeler
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by EdithKeeler »

I’m really confused. Isn’t coding kind of the antithesis of the job counseling and a life hiking trails, etc?

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C40
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by C40 »

I haven't read the post details but that was my first thoughts as well. "He'd hate coding and would move on within a year". I say this having done some coding myself (just in college, fairly simple stuff) and knowing how it feels when things aren't working out and the things you're trying aren't helping - and how that will feel with the pressure of a boss asking "why haven't you fixed that little issue yet?".

There are other ways to have flexibility/independence and also connect with people. For one example, see this: http://www.teacherdiane.com/ I think/know she makes pretty decent money. Much of it from the 1-on-1 sessions with folks who pay good money for it. Other jobs can be done like this. Counseling? Therapy? Etc

Also - as a side note for those dating or who like having good conversations - that website has a good set of conversational questions - in the "Free Materials" dropdown - Random Questions. I'm putting them into a list for myself

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fiby41
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by fiby41 »

Re: RooshV, from what I've read (Bang Ukraine before amazon removed it) I wouldn't say he's redpilled. He didn't want to be identified with that label either according to a blog post.

daylen
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by daylen »

I actually think learning to code is a great idea. BRUTE loved it and he was an INFJ. It will help Fox develop third slot Ti and often requires people interfacing (Fe) to fit it all together. Compatibility is the primary source of problems and communication is the primary source of solutions. The software world is dominated by Fe-Ti users (less likely to get frustrated by something not being 'fixed' and more likely to turn failure into a general solution for later :P ).

Do not bother with a boot-camp, though. It will be a waste of money. Either conjure up the willpower to learn on your own or look somewhere else.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

fiby41 wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:57 pm
Re: RooshV, from what I've read (Bang Ukraine before amazon removed it) I wouldn't say he's redpilled. He didn't want to be identified with that label either according to a blog post.
I think he's god-pilled at the moment. He has an interesting Youtube series traveling around the US at the moment. It's actually been super helpful to see different places with an online tour-guide. I loved the shots of the rockies west of CO and the forests around Oregon/Washington.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@Edith & C40, I just don't want to bunker down and do another stupid MS degree, even if it is in psychology, and especially if it leads to relatively low pay. Let alone a phd that is likely to take 7+ years of grueling hard work.

Using the MPA now to get a non-profit job while trying out coding and entrepreneurship for a minute doesn't sound half-bad.

All of this is coming up 'cause I'm reaching out to all sorts of alumni and hearing wtf they did with their relatively useless liberal arts degrees. Lots of social entrepreneurs, and many of them are succesful. I'm wondering if I can latch on to one of their projects and learn the ropes, especially out west. I think that would be f-ing awesome. $ + meaning + immediate + out west.

Time to reach out to more alumni.

---------------

I think I've figured out some societal status strata, as far as job & income in the West is concerned:

1. You have the people that are totally screwed, such as homeless people, undocumented people, or prisoners
2. The people working menial jobs for very low wages, such as those working at a retail store or Starbucks
3. The people who have a low-standing office job, maybe pays 25-40k/yr and has some responsbility
4. The people who have a mid-tier office job, maybe pays 45-60k, and comes with more stress and responsibility
5. The people who have a high-end office job, maybe pays 70k-100K, and comes with tons of stress and responsibility
6. The people who work in sales, programming, as doctors, as successful lawyers, as consultants, and earn 100K+
7. The executives at the very top of the company, that can earn 500K+
8. Super successful entrepreneurs that can earn 1M+
9. A-list Actors or entertainers that can earn multiple M's at the total cost of their privacy
10. Billionaires that can control entire industries or even countries

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

Ah, fuck it, if I can find an alum and a 50k/yr job that I can see myself doing in CO or MT, I'm movin'. Better to move squarely in my mid-twenties rather than late-twenties. I'll just have to be really careful not to quit and end up back in Miami. From watching a bunch of US travel videos, it seems like most places are fairly similar these days aside from:

1. Geography/Seasons/Climate: some places have more immediate access to mountains or other nature, and 4 seasons
2. Taxes: some places tax the hell out of you; others tax minimally
3. Openness: some places have people that generally aren't open to talking to new people, others do
4. Cost of Living: some places are prohibitively expensive to live in; others are a lot cheaper

After trying out MA, FL, and NY, I'd want:

1. Four seasons and immediate access to mountains, rivers, etc.
2. Just federal taxes if at all possible
3. A smaller place where people are open to socializing generally
4. Some place where $500/room within walking distance of work is possible

classical_Liberal
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by classical_Liberal »

@tophatfox
As someone who has traveled through those areas quite a bit, I highly encourage you to visit the town you are looking at relocating to and get a feel for it. In my experience the small cities in MT, WY, ID can have a vastly different feel. Some have a dirty, dying, industrial feel (ex Billings MT), some have a tourist feel (ex Jackson WY), and some have a cool revitalization of small downtown feel (ex Cheyenne WY). Anything in Northern Colorado on the Eastern slope tends to be much more expensive. Remember, everything is MUCH further away in these areas than someone from anywhere on the East coast is used to. If you don't like the town you choose it could easily be 4+ car hours to the next decent sized town. So choose wisely.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

Yeah, I'll have mid Dec to early Jan off, so I may need to plunk down 1-2k for a road-trip for research 8-)

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unemployable
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by unemployable »

As you know, I live in the Colorado mountains and have for more than nine years now. Why do you feel you'd be compelled to move back to Miami? How would you be better off broke there as opposed to broke here?

If you haven't set up a job here before moving out, I think you're probably looking at grunt work (low level admin/clerical) or the service industry and trying to move up from there. Although rents are kind of high in most of CO nowadays -- thanks, millennials! -- the service industry tends to pay relatively well. The Wendy's nearby is advertising $15/hr, which makes me wonder why we need a minimum wage at that level. You may want to consider working two jobs for awhile, and I wouldn't shun manual labor.

I'd check out Grand Junction and Durango if you can; they're cheaper than the Front Range (GJ moreso) and you don't have the tourism/weekend warrior crush of the areas closer to Denver.

Yes, a fact-finding mission will cost you money. Sleeping in your car is an acquired skill and if it is part of your plan, I suggest you work on it. Gas between here and Alabama is like $150 and you're going further on both ends.

Western winters are a different breed from Northeastern/Midwestern ones. They have a higher mean but also a higher standard deviation. Most days are bright and sunny as it turns out. But you can get a foot or two of snow no problem and the cold fronts can be vicious. Compare to Northeastern winters with day after day after day of 25° gray skies. I woke up to -4 Fahrenheit this morning, and it's supposed to be colder tonight. And it's still October. It snowed in June here this year, at my elevation. Twice.

Especially if you live in Montana, plan on long drives to fun stuff. If you go without an hour-plus drive to the nearest large city with a Wal-Mart for awhile, some smaller towns will still have chain grocery stores and similar amenities with very reasonable rents. I'll let you discover those yourself. What I've also heard is never move anywhere in MT in winter without housing and a job already lined up, unless you don't need a job for money.

I think MT is a great place to ER or semi-ER but not so good if you're still in the accumulation phase.

The only tax I can think of that sticks out as high among Western states, other than what California shoves at you, is Oregon's income tax, just pure death for ER. Colorado income tax is a flat 4.63% of Federal taxable income, that is after all Federal deductions, which I find reasonable.

Any reason you've ruled out the Reno/Carson area? Close to all the good California mountains without the California cost of living.
Last edited by unemployable on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

George the original one
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by George the original one »

TopHatFox wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:02 pm
I'd want:
1. Four seasons and immediate access to mountains, rivers, etc.
2. Just federal taxes if at all possible
3. A smaller place where people are open to socializing generally
4. Some place where $500/room within walking distance of work is possible
I think you should plan on only getting 3 out of those 4 items...

Seven states—Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming—levy no personal income tax. Two (New Hampshire and Tennessee) don't tax wages, but do currently tax investment income and interest. Both are set to eliminate those taxes soon. Of those, only New Hampshire has no sales tax (While Alaska has no sales tax, the municipalities, where you'd likely live, are allowed sales tax).

You know what Florida is like and Texas isn't much different (e.g. not 4 seasons). Alaska has 3 seasons. Nevada, South Dakota, & Wyoming are not exactly known for rivers.

You need to check New Hampshire & Tennessee investment tax rates because they otherwise likely meet your criteria.

Washington likely won't have $500 rooms within walking distance of work because its hard to even find $500 rooms, let alone within walking distance of work.
***
Something you didn't mention that should probably be amongst your criteria: Medicaid expansion. If that's important, then of the no state income tax choices, Florida, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming would be ruled out.

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unemployable
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by unemployable »

George the original one wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:20 pm
Two (New Hampshire and Tennessee) don't tax wages, but do currently tax investment income and interest. Both are set to eliminate those taxes soon.
Tennessee's will be 1% for 2020 and is going away in 2021. https://blog.rodefermoss.com/tennessee- ... l-schedule

NH's won't be going away completely until 2024. https://mcdonaldhopkins.com/Insights/Bl ... est-income

TN has a rather high sales tax, and it applies on groceries. NH has a high property tax. From my research, the overall tax burden in both states is about as good as it gets, slight edge to Tennessee I'd say. A $75k house in rural or small-town Tennessee pays about one-tenth the property tax as one in NH would (everything in NH is in a town).
George the original one wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:20 pm
Washington likely won't have $500 rooms within walking distance of work because its hard to even find $500 rooms, let alone within walking distance of work.
East of the Cascades that would be no problem. Spokane in particular is barely an hour to the Montana line.

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