Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Where are you and where are you going?
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Jean
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Jean »

I disagree. I'm weird by many metrics, and i'm happy in an 800 inhabitants village. Weird people aren't supposed to group together.

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C40
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by C40 »

TopHatFox wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:31 am
What's the happy medium: Not too small, not too big; a niche in semi-big; or small but with the most fitting people; or maybe even one of the last three choices near big ass city?
There are only happy mediums for individuals. An article saying introverted people get depressed by [xyz] does not apply directly to you.

What matter is what YOU want, what makes YOU happy, what different scenarios YOU can deal with/enjoy, etc.

You could map out a handful of different things to consider. There are almost endless options, so you just need to decide and consider the ones important to you. (But be careful to also be aware of other things you had assumed would be relatively the same, but then end up being an issue).


[warning - poorly structured rambling below that is just my own personal thoughts as much as being any advice]

Within city size choice, there are things like:

Polulation stuff:
- # of people. (as it relates to the pool of people you might possibly befriend, love, be annoyed by, etc.)
- Various demographics (income, education, intelligence, race, religion, politics, outdoorsiness, environmentalism, self reliance, mood, mental health, fitness, age, parents/childless, hobbies, motivations).

City size (in area), density, etc. Some people love being in a city basically all the time. I like to be able to get out of it easily/quickly, or at least have places in the city (large parks, good bike paths) to feel 'away'/separate' from it. It has worked well for me living on the very edges of cities, and also living right in the middle of a city next to a gigantic park. One of the big factors here is where 'your people' live. If you like to 'get out' of it, like me, large cities get tricky because 'your people' generally go live right in the middle of the city. So living out on the edge can suck if you live 20 miles from the people you want to hang out with. IMO, that's a big part of the benefit of living in a city that is not huge. (and one of the big reasons I like Tucson (10-15 mile diameter of city) much more than Phoenix (like 70+ mile city diameter)

For me, so far I think there isn't ever going to be one city that is good in all the ways I want. They're at least one of: too big/spread out, too expensive, too cold, too few people I like, and so on. The well-known cities that are small but with many fun people are often now overpriced because of it (Bend, Boulder, etc.).

I feel like, for me at least, the most important way for a city to be great for me is to have to have a few really close/good friends there. Then the other things I care about (cost, size, outdoors accessibility) just need to be 'good enough'. Some of the other things, while important, can be made up for. If I live in a huge city or an area with shitty outdoor activity options, having a decent sized yard where I can do a bunch of gardening stuff can make up for it pretty well. If the city is too expensive, living with close friends might be able to make up for it. and so on. But in a place where I feel like a hermit/outsider/friendless would be a huge problem in the long run even if the other stuff is good.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@C40, that makes sense. Okay, thennnnn, I'd say I hate cities and they provide the means by which I am more likely to be depressed. Dirty, grey, status-in-your-face, advertising-centric, overwhelming, overpopulated, hyper competitive - these are all things that provide the means by which I am more likely to be depressed. : ).

So, I'd personally hate to be in the city full-time. I also know from experience that I don't like being in the middle of nowhere with no one to <3 or talk to (so no to living in most of AK). As to what that leaves me with, hmmmmm. It seem like those high-price, small cities are the way to go. Wish they weren't so damn expensive. I guess I could pick up some sweaters + sun lamps and deal with the cold in a place I'd otherwise likely fit with, such as Missoula.

@C40, What are some other examples of small, intellectual cities such as Boulder? I suppose I should take a look at your location spreadsheet...

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C40
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by C40 »

While you are still quite young, college towns are probably a decent option.

You could just make get a list of universities by student size, then list out the population of each city. Then check/see if the city/area meets your other desires. Or if you want to avoid college towns, do the same thing.

If you want to look in specific areas, this map may be useful https://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/CollegeMap/

Other examples:
Boulder. Maybe Longmont? Maybe a couple others around there.
Bend, OR
Flagstaff, AZ
Bozeman, MT (I like it better than Missoula, but that's another one)
Park City, UT (?) Or Provo?
Eugene, OR (?)
San Luis Obispo, CA
Boone, NC (maybe.. but I don't recommend NC though)

It's difficult to just make up a list.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

C40 probably knows better than me but I liked Asheville, NC the weekend I spent there. Lots of schools in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area- it might be a little plastic but at least it’s economically vibrant. All the northerners fed up with high costs of living and cold weather are setting up shop down there. Chapel Hill seemed a bit too preppy and exclusive but you might like granola-crunch Carrboro. I get impatient with hippies so I preferred Durham to either.

You’re still young and it’s nice to be gainfully employed.

George the original one
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by George the original one »

TopHatFox wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:31 am
What's the happy medium: Not too small, not too big; a niche in semi-big; or small but with the most fitting people; or maybe even one of the last three choices near big ass city?
A college town, while you're still young enough to find the people you want to meet.

George the original one
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by George the original one »

C40 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:56 pm
Bend, OR
Eugene, OR (?)
Bend has the right people, but it is the worst example of suburban sprawl in Oregon. Skiing and biking are prime activities that don't require a vehicle, but a car is nearly essential if you don't have a bike and the traffic is lousy because the road system was uncoordinated. Winter is 6+ months long.

Fox will more likely be at home in Eugene. Biking, boating, and environmental activities abound. Public transit that reaches into the suburbs. More temperate climate, with far less winter, but you can't ignore that it's a bit on the rainy side from Oct to April. Like all the west coast, however, the dry season is wonderful.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Kriegsspiel »

bigato wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:08 pm
Also, the poster has said that living in big cities makes him depressed, you probably could try to assume that he is not lying.
To clarify, the bit I was responding to was the IntrovertSpring section THF mentioned. C40 said it in a better way. My suggestion was so basic that it doesn't really matter.



If you think being anxious walking down a sidewalk full of people is not a problem, then we may just agree to disagree.

prognastat
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by prognastat »

bigato wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:19 pm
If it holds true that would pretty much take almost 85% out of the equation. Not a great proposition given that 27% of the population is between 20 and 40*, 15% of that would be about 4% and that's not even limiting it to people with compatible values, interests etc. Those aren't great numbers.

I have almost no friends at this time. The cause of this was two fold. One being struggling to find friendships in the first place and the other one an extremely insecure ex-wife that would pretty much make the few attempts I made failed. Now that I've been divorced one of my goals is to build a better network of friends as I do think this is a pillar of your mental health. Even more so since I have no family in the country.

In the past I would build friendships based on similar interests that I could talk about those interests, but this would generally be it. None that extended to values, principles or anything like that. Honestly most people I used to know or still know don't seem to put a lot of thought in to those. I'm hoping as I start some hobbies that include social interaction with people this will help facilitate the start of some friendships.

* a reasonable age range around mine, not to be too ageist but don't really want to be hanging out with kids and not that I'm completely ruling over 40 out yet the odds would probably be much lower due to differing interests, levels of activity etc.

Frita
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Frita »

College towns are super for all ages! Bozeman, MT, is terrific BTW and was our #2 choice. Ft. Collins, CO, was #3. Skip Provo, UT, unless you’re Mormon. (The BYU Creamery is awesome though.). Butte, MT, is another consideration,especially if you’d like a historical home for a low price.

ItsALongStory
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by ItsALongStory »

Other potential options could be
Flagstaff, AZ
Reno, NV
Boise, ID

The problem might lie more in your job expectations than the potential cities, it seems like you are looking for something very specific so without knowing how much flexibility there is on that front it may be a waste of time to suggest many of these places.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I agree that a college town is likely the best pick for you. A further note would be that not all college towns are created equal. For instance, a world-class university center can offer many of the cultural advantages of big city living without the size, but a small private liberal arts college town in an otherwise very rural setting will likely be your least expensive choice.

Another thing to bear in mind is that there are many different cultural flavors of rural in the U.S. For instance, in my realm the farming areas tend towards a mix of new school religious right wing conservative (big box church and an ATV) or old school conservative laid-back Quaker-like(historical museums and craft fairs) , and the wooded North is more counter-cultural libertarian who likes to hunt.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

Lots of good stuff here. I think next step is to make a route connecting many of these and go on a sleep-in-the-car road trip in the summer. I have about 3-4 weeks vacation and the summer is pretty dead around here.

I think I would like to get a PsyD, as long as it's free. MPA + PsyD will let me do just about whatever an INFJ could want, and could offer opportunities after FI. So I'm thinking of applying at a job at a university where I can get that for free while I work there, continue to accumulate, and hit on the crunchy locals. <3

------------------

Had a random thought as I was riding the bus today. It seems that if you devote a part of your life towards future-building--which, let's be frank, is what we're doing when we sign up for FIRE accumulation--then eventually that "future you" you're saving for, becomes "present you." At that point, present you becomes happier, thanks to all the options--education, money, skills--now "past you" put in place. So maybe happiness increases as one progresses along the FIRE path, and it's probably lowest at the beginning. That probably also means that difficulty of the FIRE path decreases as one progresses along it.

For those further along the path than me,when did you notice that your hard work accumulating was paying off?

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

It happened in phases.

In 2015 when I first hit ~$100k in investments, I realized I could never contribute to retirement funds again, and still end up a millionaire at traditional retirement age.

Then in 2017 when I cracked $300k realizing I could draw $10-12k/yr and supplement the rest of my lifestyle working any job 2-3 days a week. That was a huge game changer in attitude toward the corporate world.

Now that I'm barebone FI, I'm questioning every decision to trade time for money. Which is a blessing and a curse :)

Keep it up! Most of your dilemmas are not financial in nature.

Stahlmann
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Stahlmann »

it must be fun to live in your bubble.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

I like bubbles. bubble bubble bubble

The real world sucks, but bubbbbbbles are the best. ^_^

theanimal
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by theanimal »

TopHatFox wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:49 am
At that point, present you becomes happier, thanks to all the options--education, money, skills--now "past you" put in place. So maybe happiness increases as one progresses along the FIRE path, and it's probably lowest at the beginning.
There's plenty of evidence on this board and elsewhere demonstrating that the opposite is true. More money or freedom isn't going to make you happier if you aren't happy now. Happiness is internal.

Lemon
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Lemon »

I am not that much further along than you (although 1 'stage' up from your cash descriptions).

The money doesn't make me happy. Hitting a milestone feels nice but that bit is somewhat of an automatic process, insofar as it is a number that trends up and at some point will be a sufficiently big ball of money I never need to work again. In theory.

What has made more happy is the other parts of ERE/my own life. Getting healthier (in which I include sleep/exercise/eating/etc.). Spending time with Partner/friends/family. Purposeful work. Slowly adapting to my surroundings and adapting them to me. It isn't perfect, but that is an impossible ideal.

In that sense I would disagree with @theanimal. Happiness is not entirely internal. Environment is a big part. It is hard to be happy when an environment is against your value and assaulting the lower rungs of the hierarchy of needs. If where you are is totally incompatible with you then looking elsewhere is worth doing. But it doesn't solve everything. You do have to put in the effort yourself. I would recommend 'How to be miserable' as a book that might be worth trying.

theanimal
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by theanimal »

I agree with Crazylemon.

I'm mainly advising to be wary of the idea that achieving FI is some magical cure all and all your problems are going to go away. If you're not happy now, there's a pretty good chance FI is not going to solve your problems. I'd recommend checking out the journals of C40, Akratic and M741 if you are looking for more reading on those who have talked about related issues.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Stahlmann wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:18 am
it must be fun to live in your bubble.
You know Stahlmann, a lot of the people I thought in my twenties were living charmed lives compared to me have gotten rocked in the last few years. Unemployment, ruin, drugs, death.

You have to persevere.

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