Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

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fingeek
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by fingeek » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:23 am

Thanks for sharing. Sometimes we just need to vent, and have someone to listen.

Augustus
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Augustus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:05 pm

I think you and I, and a few others on this forum, are hitting what might be termed as a "mid-life crisis" (substitute your word of choice that carries less baggage) all at the same time. It's kind of interesting. I was sitting and wondering why I've been so anxious and blue lately, especially after my peak happiness event earlier in the year. I've realized two things in my ruminations.

One, is that there is a bunch of shit that I feel is "wrong" right now in my life and I'm not happy about, it's not just one thing, and it's tempting to conflate or only focus on one aspect my problems even though it's counterproductive. On my end I've managed to stress myself the hell out with money and work pressure, and the emotional response to that is spilling over into other areas of my life, which is not good and I'm trying to correct.

Two, which it sounds like you may be feeling, is that I've run out of dreams (I read that in another journal a day or two after I had independently come to the same conclusion). I was sitting and thinking what's the purpose of life? What I came up with is that I aspire to certain ideals, dreams I call them, such as family, being kind, starting a business, surfing, etc. Taking those dreams and giving them life gives me purpose. At this point in my life I've either accomplished a lot of them or I've left them by the wayside because I either don't want them or I don't believe them anymore. I realized that I've run out of dreams. Objectively I should be totally thrilled, if I went back to chat with my 20 year old self, who wanted to accomplish these dreams, he'd be patting me on the back and telling me I did an amazing job. But that's not what's happening, instead I feel aimless and depressed by it, I've been questioning everything, and I feel adrift.

A concept I've developed over the years is mental "traction" to reality. When you feel like you know what you're doing, when the model in your head matches what you're seeing, and it's easy to make decisions and you feel in control. I've lost that mental traction at this point, and it's really dispiriting. A lot of times lately I just feel out of control. There is no right decision that I can think of to make to fix things.

I've got no specific advice for you. A few things have been helping me though. I read about the concept of Ikigai, which is at least helping on a day to day level. I've run out of big goals in life for the moment, things that take multiple years to achieve, and I don't really feel inclined to pick up any more right now, so I've been switching focus to really reveling in the enjoyment of certain things/moments throughout the day. My overall mood may be anxious, but I can enjoy the hell out of a good cup of coffee, or hugging my kid or wife, and I do. Rome may be burning, but my coffee is fantastic and I love my family. It helps.

One interesting thing that helped my marriage feel a lot closer and more tightly connected, I was feeling distant for a while too, was actually my extreme anxiety over the past couple of months while I was looking for new work. It made me REALLY grateful to have wife and kid, while I was feeling shitty and anxious about my career and money woes.

To go full circle, if there's a bunch of shit in your life that's stressing you out and making you feel bad, it might not be your marriage that's the problem. Your marriage might be collateral damage. If you fixed some of that other stuff, it might change your view on the marriage overall. I'd also be careful even saying the word "divorce," that might put both parties in the defensive, thinking about how each party will defend themselves and how they can be okay on their own, which is going to do the opposite of trying to make you both try to feel closer. You mentioned in the past that you're emotionally closed off, maybe you just need to explain to your wife how shitty you're feeling right now about everything overall instead, that puts her in a position to try and help you, and it feels good knowing that someone has your back when life seems intent on breaking you down. You're the one that has to live through it though, you gotta do what you gotta do. If you lived in a paid off house, part timing as a ski instructor or some other sport you enjoyed, and had no money worried, would you still be thinking divorce?

These are complex problems with no simple easy to arrive at solutions. The number of variables involved make it practically impossible to predict what will happen, and there's no way to go back and undo mistakes. Yay relationships!

7Wannabe5
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:23 am

But what these recent thoughts/experiences have shown me is that I haven’t been feeding a very important part of my soul - the part of my soul that misses these certain positive emotions of connection and understanding and love and intimacy. I didn’t do anything drastic. I started a conversation with my wife that went “Our relationship is stale. We’re living parallel lives. We don’t understand each other. I am lonely in this marriage. This can’t continue. What now?” Can I find intimacy and connection outside of my marriage? Absolutely. I work very hard on my friendships, actually. But I also want it IN my marriage. If that’s not possible, fine, let’s call it a friendship or a co-parenting relationship or something else, but it’s not a marriage, not to me anyway. These are difficult conversations to have, yes, and they are consciously difficult, but NOT having the conversation was also difficult - sub- or unconciously difficult. I’m for truth and openness and, yes, courage to bring these things to the light so open, honest, conscious decisions can be made. Call me crazy, but I don’t want to just survive any more. I want to live, and love.
Oh, I well remember when I was at similar fork in the road. However, my ultimatum was more along the lines of "If we don't start having regular sex, regular "date" nights, and working on projects together, I am outta here." Putting aside the issue of whether these sort of ultimatums towards difficult conversations, resolution, or date in divorce court "work"*, what I might suggest would be that it is unlikely that you are going to get what you want in contract renegotiations if you don't describe it more concretely. We can really only know or interact with other people through their behaviors inclusive of conversations. So, what are the sorts of scenes you imagine happening in a relationship that includes more of what you mean when you use the word "intimacy?"

I couldn't decide whether to post this bit on your thread or Gravy Train's. Ten years after I was in the phase you are in and less than 6 months after the end of my second briefer "marriage", I was on a second date with an attractive man of the sort I usually date. We were walking around downtown Detroit after dark and he was telling me an amusing story about working there in the late 70s. I was getting a bit sleepy, because my bedtime is usually before 9 PM, and I was distracted by my own thoughts, so I unconsciously put my hand out as if I expected him to take hold of it. Later he texted that he thought it was "sweet" that I made that gesture, and only then did I realize that I had made the intimate gesture, and I was a bit freaked out by that realization. My point being that there are these strands running through you, some inherent and some gained through experience interacting with others in various forms and phases of relationship, and you won't necessarily know what belongs to you "This is how I am 7 years into a relationship." or "This is how I am when I fight with an ENTP" or, even, "This is how I am walking through the city after dark with a man I momentarily forgot wasn't my husband." or what doesn't until you've visited that place more than once.

The doldrums are absolutely to be expected in any long term relationship, and mid-life crisis is absolutely to be expected in any human experiencing hormonal decline (oddly doesn't seem to happen to lifelong single men until their mothers die) in currently infertile relationship, but it is also true that more or less than that may be going wrong or going on in your marriage. It really is difficult for outsiders to judge, especially given only the written version of one half of the story.

Second question would be if you are truly committed to getting down and dirty in the crucible trying to achieve a greater state of intimacy/passion in your marriage, are you ready to do your half of the work in terms of listening to what your wife has to say on how you may be exhibiting behaviors that are making it difficult for her to achieve or desire intimacy with you? For example, one of the things my ex threw out at me (after breaking the edge off of a counter top, because he was so p*ssed" was "You are too nerdy to f*ck."

*Hindsight being 20/20, I3 years down the road from my years of marital dissolution, I would say that I wound up with the right result even though my method was half dysfunctional.

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:59 am

Augustus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:05 pm
I think you and I, and a few others on this forum, are hitting what might be termed as a "mid-life crisis"
May we all live long enough to help Suo work through his walker vs. wheelchair crisis.

P_K
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by P_K » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:07 pm

Thanks for sharing, Suo. Wishing you and your family the best, and hoping for as speedy and amicable a resolution as is possible for something so difficult.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 am

After carefully thinking Suo’s situation, I believe his root problem is lack of capability to sense empathy. This makes his life similar to an elephant in a glass house. Propably he has chosen law practising as profession because it is an area of life where empathy has no role. Also his love for nature can be explained as nature has no empathy, so it is perfect sanctuary.

Assuming the above is true, the logical thing for him would be to hire an assistant to act as a surrogate for sensing empathy. His wife or some of his children would be natural candidates for that purpose.

What Suo is currently doing is exactly opposite. He is pushing his wife further away from himself by creating intentional conflict.

My recommendation would be Suo to open up to his wife and ask her help in explaining how and why different people behave as they behave (case by case, when situations come)

Woody Allen has a classic movie about a movie director who becomes temporarily blind but hiding blindness still keeps going and manages to direct the movie with the help of some trusted (surrogate) people as his eyes.

Gravy Train
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Gravy Train » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:39 am

Nuuka wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 am
I believe his root problem is lack of capability to sense empathy.
I have to respectfully disagree here, Nuuka. Based off of Suo's comments in my own journal and elsewhere, I've found him to be very empathetic. I also disagree that lawyers are not empathetic nor do they need to be so; my experience has been quite the opposite, regardless of their specialty (finance, PI, etc.). That's kind of part of the gig. To be able to put yourself in another's shoes and argue eloquently on another's behalf requires at least some empathy, don't you think?

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:25 am

Nuuka wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 am
Woody Allen has a classic movie about a movie director who becomes temporarily blind but hiding blindness still keeps going and manages to direct the movie with the help of some trusted (surrogate) people as his eyes.
Not to go all higher film criticism on you, but In the future, it might be more effective using the artistic work of a man/woman not frighteningly devoid of empathy as an example of how not to be devoid of empathy.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:58 pm

Gravy Train wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:39 am
I have to respectfully disagree here, Nuuka. Based off of Suo's comments in my own journal and elsewhere, I've found him to be very empathetic. I also disagree that lawyers are not empathetic nor do they need to be so; my experience has been quite the opposite, regardless of their specialty (finance, PI, etc.). That's kind of part of the gig. To be able to put yourself in another's shoes and argue eloquently on another's behalf requires at least some empathy, don't you think?
Be careful. If you read carefully, Suo is symphatetic towards to the reader not to his family. Being able to address private discussion typical to narcistic persons are capable of entering inside your skin.

About your point about attorneys in general being polite and synphatetic it has no relevance to Suo’s case. Of course they are trained with their opening speeches and customary responses. Suo as intelligent has surely learnd those and can play the ordinary cases.

Apologies, but I found nothing to weaken my case.
Last edited by Nuuka on Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:04 pm

Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:25 am
Not to go all higher film criticism on you, but In the future, it might be more effective using the artistic work of a man/woman not frighteningly devoid of empathy as an example of how not to be devoid of empathy.
I agree that Woody is not in the best reputation because of the Mia Farrow dispute and the love affair with the chinese origin minor. I am aware of that.

But I still think considering the string of movies that Woody has produced that he clearly proofs capability of understanding complexity of human life and nuances of it. Perhaps the artist has to go to the bottom to truly understand life. Anyway, I think this movie gives Suo a chance (assuming that I am right on the diagnosis)

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:43 pm

So Suo is a sociopath and he can be reformed by watching Woody Allen movies. If only there was another filmmaker who understood the complexity of human life to make a movie about that.

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jennypenny
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by jennypenny » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:48 pm

I think we should stop shrinking Suo. He’s unhappy and just needs a place to vent. We’ve all been there.

Only he can decide what’s best. I hope he finds a way to get happy (no matter what it is).

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:59 pm

Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:25 am
Not to go all higher film criticism on you, but In the future, it might be more effective using the artistic work of a man/woman not frighteningly devoid of empathy as an example of how not to be devoid of empathy.
Yeah what’s next, quoting Aristotle or Casanova as you ask about IVF and freezing a woman’s eggs?
Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:43 pm
So Suo is a sociopath and he can be reformed by watching Woody Allen movies. If only there was another filmmaker who understood the complexity of human life to make a movie about that.
I’m still young Jason.
Nuuka wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 am
Woody Allen has a classic movie about a movie director who becomes temporarily blind but hiding blindness still keeps going and manages to direct the movie with the help of some trusted (surrogate) people as his eyes.
Not the same film but of interest:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2dD7upKpLks
jennypenny wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:48 pm
I think we should stop shrinking Suo. He’s unhappy and just needs a place to vent. We’ve all been there.

Only he can decide what’s best. I hope he finds a way to get happy (no matter what it is).
Suo. I understand you need to vent, my friend. I am sorry about the HORROR. :lol: :lol:

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:11 pm

I, for one, hope Suo never gets happy. Well, let me take that back. I hope he becomes happy, but then winds up sad again. Like a cycle. That to me is optimal Suo.

But if people believe strapping him to a chair and Kubricking him to a weekend of "Take The Money and Run" will help, I can well, empathize.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:30 pm

Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:43 pm
So Suo is a sociopath and he can be reformed by watching Woody Allen movies. If only there was another filmmaker who understood the complexity of human life to make a movie about that.
I think the openess of the relation between Suo and Mrs Suo is the key to the future. In a way I think Suo was also seeking for this openess. Instead of demanding (for Mrs Suo to change), he should be asking for help (from Mrs Suo to interprete empathy signals from Suo’s life stream).
Last edited by Nuuka on Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:44 pm

I don't know. I don't really see Suo as a Jane Austen type of guy. Unless you can work in some Fight Club. Maybe remove that ballroom shit and replace it with some bare knuckle action. I could see that working.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:59 pm

Jane Austen? I dropped the ball

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:02 pm

Good. Now just throw in a fight scene.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:52 pm

Jesus Christ. What the fuck is wrong with you people? Get the fuck out of my journal.

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:46 am

In all due respect, you could show some empathy on the matter. We're just trying to help.

Have you seen "Broadway Danny Rose?" I think it might worth your time.

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