Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Where are you and where are you going?
EdithKeeler
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by EdithKeeler »

I have zero to offer re relationship advice. All I can say is I’m sorry you’re going through this. I know you mentioned couples therapy, but I can’t recall if you’ve done therapy on your own. If not, might be helpful to have a handful of appointments to talk through this stuff with a professional. Just to get a different perspective.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen »

@peanut I don't know what kind of relationships you've been in, but if we stop talking...it's over. I mean, it might be over anyway if we can't figure out how to "talk better", but not talking at all, shit...

@ek I think I've spent 1.5 jacobs on personal therapy. I know there's a bias towards "stick together", but...I dunno...at what point do you say "I've done enough"? Is 18 years enough? Would 20? 30? 50? How much self-flagellation must one endure before it's socially acceptable to leave? I assume the answer is "infinity", so I'm just going to do what I can and, you know, if it's better to put the energy into being good co-parents as opposed to life partners, then so be it.

Yay relationships.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by EdithKeeler »

Only you can decide what’s best for you, and it’s good that you’ve had some private head shrinking, just so you know all the angles, the pros and cons, and will be okay with your decision, whatever happens.

I think there probably is a bias for staying together, because the status quo is always easier. Easier for the kids (unless there’s constant fighting and abuse—that’s a different deal), easier re the money and property, easier re the social network, easier for the parents and in laws.... because there’s no guarantee it’ll be better after the split. How many times do we have in our mind the way we think it’ll be, and the reality is much different. The new guy farts in bed, too, the new chick is a slob, etc.

But people change, go in different directions.... it happens. Life is too short to be truly miserable. What percent of bad stuff makes the relationship a total loss? Only you can know. Good luck.

Peanut
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Peanut »

I don't mean stop talking to each other. I mean try not talking to each other (or for that matter, anyone else) about your relationship. Do something together without the kids and talk about that instead. I don't know what you like to do. But it could be anything and something new is perhaps better. Something new with adrenaline is perhaps better still. Indoor skydiving, that kind of shit. Real skydiving. That way you'll figure out if there are ways that you can relate to each other that is enjoyable and energizing for both of you. It's real basic on some level. Like, can you enjoy each other's company? Once you're sure you can I think things can fall into place.

Me, I've been with DH more than half my life. I remember when we went back to the opera for the first time in a long time after moving to a new city. It was crazy to be nervous and not know quite how to act. It was the setting, being alone after not having been alone together for a long time after having our first kid, all of that. Like a reintroduction. The foregoing examples are $$$ but of course there are many free activities that can do the same work. Way back when he suggested we get CPR certified together. I still remember him accidentally popping off the baby doll's head... And I think volunteer work can be a great bonding experience. Serving shelter dinners with your kids. Look around and you will see most of the men there seeing you and your family as an unattainable fantasy.

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fiby41
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by fiby41 »

Peanut wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:43 am
IME ultimatums rarely work the way you want them to.
Ultimatums are a declaration of powerlessness.
Smashter wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:01 am
How is having a tough conversation about what he truly wants such a bad thing?
I can not negotiate genuine desire.
seems like they built a family together, they probably have volunteered at church together, and they have traveled together.
If I assume this gives him relational equity he couldn't feel discontent about staleness in the same breath.

SUOMALAISEN can look up 'Rian Stone married dread game' on YouTube.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka »

I will now assume role of Devils Advocate

< begin Devil’s Advocate >
Nuuka wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:23 pm
But there are some disorder sowing people that create selective chaos intentionally but they are not stupid. I think you may have encountered people with various degree of narcistic or sociopath or even psychopath behaviour charasteristics. These are really difficult to notice and deal with. They can please you in the beginning and show their true face later. Basically their strategy is to create chaos, put the blame on others, then when others beg for help, they stop causing the chaos and continue knowing that they are now in control. Same will happen again if they need boost to their weak self image. Basically this is child needing care from mother and getting always the attention by crying (chaos sowing) and never learned where is the border between self and mother. These peple are ruthless since they have no internal sense of empathy. This is why they can do well in business world (until they are isolated by everyone running out or building shields around).
Does Suo’s behaviour match the above description? Suo is feeling low, so he needs boost, so he creates chaos situation in his marriage. Mrs Suo tries to cope by building a shield. Suo notices increased lack of intimacy due to shield.

A new round will come when Suo feels low again. ... Next round the shield will come up a little bit more

Suo: how was your relationship with your mother?

< end Devil’s Advovate >

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen »

Oh jesus some of you are just...so...missing...the...point... To those that aren’t, I appreciate your thoughts and empathy. I wasn’t really looking for advice, as I know what to do and how to do it. It just sucks. So I came here to express that it sucks. If you can’t understand what I’m going through or what I’m trying to say, that’s ok. Maybe Daylen could pop in here and type everyone and explain why some can’t see me. Be that as it may, I debated whether to post something so intimate, knowing that it could turn into a shitshow, but I did it for two reasons: 1) it’s real, why hide it, and 2) there are SERIOUS financial implications (on the order of $1 million in a certain accounting)...but some things are more important than money. Or, looked at another way, I am in a financial and skill position that I could make two households work, so money doesn’t control my choices. This is (mental and financial) freedom - to consciously choose my path through life.

C’est la vie.

fingeek
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by fingeek »

Thanks for sharing. Sometimes we just need to vent, and have someone to listen.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

But what these recent thoughts/experiences have shown me is that I haven’t been feeding a very important part of my soul - the part of my soul that misses these certain positive emotions of connection and understanding and love and intimacy. I didn’t do anything drastic. I started a conversation with my wife that went “Our relationship is stale. We’re living parallel lives. We don’t understand each other. I am lonely in this marriage. This can’t continue. What now?” Can I find intimacy and connection outside of my marriage? Absolutely. I work very hard on my friendships, actually. But I also want it IN my marriage. If that’s not possible, fine, let’s call it a friendship or a co-parenting relationship or something else, but it’s not a marriage, not to me anyway. These are difficult conversations to have, yes, and they are consciously difficult, but NOT having the conversation was also difficult - sub- or unconciously difficult. I’m for truth and openness and, yes, courage to bring these things to the light so open, honest, conscious decisions can be made. Call me crazy, but I don’t want to just survive any more. I want to live, and love.
Oh, I well remember when I was at similar fork in the road. However, my ultimatum was more along the lines of "If we don't start having regular sex, regular "date" nights, and working on projects together, I am outta here." Putting aside the issue of whether these sort of ultimatums towards difficult conversations, resolution, or date in divorce court "work"*, what I might suggest would be that it is unlikely that you are going to get what you want in contract renegotiations if you don't describe it more concretely. We can really only know or interact with other people through their behaviors inclusive of conversations. So, what are the sorts of scenes you imagine happening in a relationship that includes more of what you mean when you use the word "intimacy?"

I couldn't decide whether to post this bit on your thread or Gravy Train's. Ten years after I was in the phase you are in and less than 6 months after the end of my second briefer "marriage", I was on a second date with an attractive man of the sort I usually date. We were walking around downtown Detroit after dark and he was telling me an amusing story about working there in the late 70s. I was getting a bit sleepy, because my bedtime is usually before 9 PM, and I was distracted by my own thoughts, so I unconsciously put my hand out as if I expected him to take hold of it. Later he texted that he thought it was "sweet" that I made that gesture, and only then did I realize that I had made the intimate gesture, and I was a bit freaked out by that realization. My point being that there are these strands running through you, some inherent and some gained through experience interacting with others in various forms and phases of relationship, and you won't necessarily know what belongs to you "This is how I am 7 years into a relationship." or "This is how I am when I fight with an ENTP" or, even, "This is how I am walking through the city after dark with a man I momentarily forgot wasn't my husband." or what doesn't until you've visited that place more than once.

The doldrums are absolutely to be expected in any long term relationship, and mid-life crisis is absolutely to be expected in any human experiencing hormonal decline (oddly doesn't seem to happen to lifelong single men until their mothers die) in currently infertile relationship, but it is also true that more or less than that may be going wrong or going on in your marriage. It really is difficult for outsiders to judge, especially given only the written version of one half of the story.

Second question would be if you are truly committed to getting down and dirty in the crucible trying to achieve a greater state of intimacy/passion in your marriage, are you ready to do your half of the work in terms of listening to what your wife has to say on how you may be exhibiting behaviors that are making it difficult for her to achieve or desire intimacy with you? For example, one of the things my ex threw out at me (after breaking the edge off of a counter top, because he was so p*ssed" was "You are too nerdy to f*ck."

*Hindsight being 20/20, I3 years down the road from my years of marital dissolution, I would say that I wound up with the right result even though my method was half dysfunctional.

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason »

Augustus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:05 pm
I think you and I, and a few others on this forum, are hitting what might be termed as a "mid-life crisis"
May we all live long enough to help Suo work through his walker vs. wheelchair crisis.

P_K
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by P_K »

Thanks for sharing, Suo. Wishing you and your family the best, and hoping for as speedy and amicable a resolution as is possible for something so difficult.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka »

After carefully thinking Suo’s situation, I believe his root problem is lack of capability to sense empathy. This makes his life similar to an elephant in a glass house. Propably he has chosen law practising as profession because it is an area of life where empathy has no role. Also his love for nature can be explained as nature has no empathy, so it is perfect sanctuary.

Assuming the above is true, the logical thing for him would be to hire an assistant to act as a surrogate for sensing empathy. His wife or some of his children would be natural candidates for that purpose.

What Suo is currently doing is exactly opposite. He is pushing his wife further away from himself by creating intentional conflict.

My recommendation would be Suo to open up to his wife and ask her help in explaining how and why different people behave as they behave (case by case, when situations come)

Woody Allen has a classic movie about a movie director who becomes temporarily blind but hiding blindness still keeps going and manages to direct the movie with the help of some trusted (surrogate) people as his eyes.

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason »

Nuuka wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 am
Woody Allen has a classic movie about a movie director who becomes temporarily blind but hiding blindness still keeps going and manages to direct the movie with the help of some trusted (surrogate) people as his eyes.
Not to go all higher film criticism on you, but In the future, it might be more effective using the artistic work of a man/woman not frighteningly devoid of empathy as an example of how not to be devoid of empathy.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka »

Gravy Train wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:39 am
I have to respectfully disagree here, Nuuka. Based off of Suo's comments in my own journal and elsewhere, I've found him to be very empathetic. I also disagree that lawyers are not empathetic nor do they need to be so; my experience has been quite the opposite, regardless of their specialty (finance, PI, etc.). That's kind of part of the gig. To be able to put yourself in another's shoes and argue eloquently on another's behalf requires at least some empathy, don't you think?
Be careful. If you read carefully, Suo is symphatetic towards to the reader not to his family. Being able to address private discussion typical to narcistic persons are capable of entering inside your skin.

About your point about attorneys in general being polite and synphatetic it has no relevance to Suo’s case. Of course they are trained with their opening speeches and customary responses. Suo as intelligent has surely learnd those and can play the ordinary cases.

Apologies, but I found nothing to weaken my case.
Last edited by Nuuka on Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka »

Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:25 am
Not to go all higher film criticism on you, but In the future, it might be more effective using the artistic work of a man/woman not frighteningly devoid of empathy as an example of how not to be devoid of empathy.
I agree that Woody is not in the best reputation because of the Mia Farrow dispute and the love affair with the chinese origin minor. I am aware of that.

But I still think considering the string of movies that Woody has produced that he clearly proofs capability of understanding complexity of human life and nuances of it. Perhaps the artist has to go to the bottom to truly understand life. Anyway, I think this movie gives Suo a chance (assuming that I am right on the diagnosis)

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason »

So Suo is a sociopath and he can be reformed by watching Woody Allen movies. If only there was another filmmaker who understood the complexity of human life to make a movie about that.

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jennypenny
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by jennypenny »

I think we should stop shrinking Suo. He’s unhappy and just needs a place to vent. We’ve all been there.

Only he can decide what’s best. I hope he finds a way to get happy (no matter what it is).

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:25 am
Not to go all higher film criticism on you, but In the future, it might be more effective using the artistic work of a man/woman not frighteningly devoid of empathy as an example of how not to be devoid of empathy.
Yeah what’s next, quoting Aristotle or Casanova as you ask about IVF and freezing a woman’s eggs?
Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:43 pm
So Suo is a sociopath and he can be reformed by watching Woody Allen movies. If only there was another filmmaker who understood the complexity of human life to make a movie about that.
I’m still young Jason.
Nuuka wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 am
Woody Allen has a classic movie about a movie director who becomes temporarily blind but hiding blindness still keeps going and manages to direct the movie with the help of some trusted (surrogate) people as his eyes.
Not the same film but of interest:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2dD7upKpLks
jennypenny wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:48 pm
I think we should stop shrinking Suo. He’s unhappy and just needs a place to vent. We’ve all been there.

Only he can decide what’s best. I hope he finds a way to get happy (no matter what it is).
Suo. I understand you need to vent, my friend. I am sorry about the HORROR. :lol: :lol:

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason »

I, for one, hope Suo never gets happy. Well, let me take that back. I hope he becomes happy, but then winds up sad again. Like a cycle. That to me is optimal Suo.

But if people believe strapping him to a chair and Kubricking him to a weekend of "Take The Money and Run" will help, I can well, empathize.

Nuuka
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Nuuka »

Jason wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:43 pm
So Suo is a sociopath and he can be reformed by watching Woody Allen movies. If only there was another filmmaker who understood the complexity of human life to make a movie about that.
I think the openess of the relation between Suo and Mrs Suo is the key to the future. In a way I think Suo was also seeking for this openess. Instead of demanding (for Mrs Suo to change), he should be asking for help (from Mrs Suo to interprete empathy signals from Suo’s life stream).
Last edited by Nuuka on Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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