Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Where are you and where are you going?
ThisDinosaur
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by ThisDinosaur » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:44 am

suomalainen wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:20 am
if she can save money from the food or whatever budget to buy her chairs, whatever.
I predict she will not like this idea. Like, *very dramatically* not like it. Then you may be tempted to say something like, "If you're not going to negotiate, then I won't either." Then the ATM won't see any action for a couple days. Call it a hunch.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Hristo Botev » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:51 am

Man, I got to my desk at about 8 this morning and told myself I'd spend 10 minutes or so reading the first few pages of Suo's journal, before getting down to actual work, given that Suo and I appear to have some significant things in common (age, job, kids; generally struggling to keep expenses in check with a full household and a high income that makes expense-cutting less of a priority than it should be). ~4 hours later with half of the workday gone (and I bill by the hour) and I all I can say is damn, I was not expecting the journal to take the turn it did in those last 6 pages. All I'm going to say Suo is, I get it; and I very much appreciate you putting it all out there.

Augustus
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Augustus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:43 pm

suomalainen wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:20 am
*** I love Augustus' verbiage on these matters. It's so condescending (to women) yet comfortingly empathetic, so it's somehow not offensive. Maybe the ladies would disagree.
it's the same formula again man. i'm getting all emo which proves i care about them and their plight, so my AOSYWG is low. the men in their lives are completing the other ratio adjustments, so all is well in the world.

if you play the "find a way to make it work in my budget" then you're not getting all emo about it and you're proving to your wife you don't care unfortunately. first you have to get all emo and explain how the furnishings of your little nest matter to you too, and you appreciate her efforts to make a nice comfortable home, because ultimately what she's signaling here is she loves you and wants you to live in a home that makes you happy as well, thus she cares about you. then have some nice sex after she knows you truly do care about her efforts to make you happy. THEN you throw out some crap about the stress that it puts on you and how you feel like you're going to have a panic attack and can she understand how stressful it is and you hate your boss and blah blah blah. then discuss and maybe come somewhere reasonable. may take a few weeks before anything decent happens, so just delay without rejecting outright until then. i've found there's just zero utility in arguing, all it does is piss everyone off. i shut my mouth without coming off as an asshole, say i'll think about it and i understand or some shit, then i talk about it when she's in a better mood i.e. back on her rocker.

sound right ladies?

honestly though, your wife is going nuts. i think she needs to get out of the house and get a job. but uh, don't phrase it like that haha. it sounds like she's suffering self esteem issues and is trying to self medicate with shopping therapy. your wife sounds similar to my wife in that respect, if my wife stays home all day she loses her shit. when she's working as a gainfully employed adult, she no longer feels inadequate and her self esteem lifts, and she's fulfilled or something. i on the other hand am perfectly happy being a bum.

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Bankai
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Bankai » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:12 pm

Thought experiment:

What conditions would need to be met for you to be happy long term (in your relationship)?

What's the probability of each of these conditions being met?

What's the probability of all of them being met?

Augustus
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Augustus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:24 pm

Bankai wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:12 pm
It's not quite that simple. You lose half your shit if you divorce, and that is on purpose. I have a general rule in life where every thousand dollars of cost there is, i need to sleep on the decision for 1 night per $1000. A divorce would cost me roughly 300 nights of sleep, on the low side, not factoring in alimony, so just round that up to 2 years of sleeping on it before making a decision. Suo has skin in the game, it's better for everyone if he can make it work, even if it takes a ton of effort. Then there's emotional collateral, like your kids lives being turned upside down and possibly hating you forever.

AND THEN, factor in running not one but TWO large suburban households since you're splitting kid custody. I do believe even a man like suo could go negative savings rate in that situation.

they (the man) have engineered this on purpose in order to make this a really serious decision to make. it's probably a good thing that it is so painful to divorce, otherwise everyone would do it.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by EdithKeeler » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:02 pm

honestly though, your wife is going nuts. i think she needs to get out of the house and get a job. but uh, don't phrase it like that haha. it sounds like she's suffering self esteem issues and is trying to self medicate with shopping therapy.
I think this is spot on. I think she’s thinking you get to go out and do cool stuff all day with new people, and perhaps you’re changing a bit, plus you make and control all money. Plus you’re a heathen pervert who’s corrupting the children... 😜 (your 14 YO knows or thinks he knows more about sex than you do...). But seriously: I do think she probably has some self esteem issues, plus the kids are getting older and don’t need her as much, and penny pinching bastard that you are, you won’t even let her make a nice home for your family! And she probably feels insecure about getting a good job because she’s been out of the game and is worried about her skills and value there, too.

I mean, that’s what would probably be going on in my head.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 pm

I think it is pretty clear that the semi-conscious root of Mrs. Suo's anxiety and antipathy is a niggling suspicion that Suo is actually attempting to save up money so that he can afford a second and/or third wife. Therefore, when she once again encounters evidence of his tendencies towards sex fiendishness, she reacts by demanding that more funds be sequestered in her nest.

Augustus
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Augustus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:38 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 pm
Depends on the social circle she runs in. Your peer group defines the rules of the game in a lot of cases. My wife hangs out with a lot of career girls, and she feels inferior when they're doing better than her.

If she's running in a circle where the men are dumping wives for a version 2.0 upgrade, yeah that's a very valid concern.

Seeing as she's already voiced interest in getting a job, if I were suo, I'd be bringing that topic back up and seeing if you can help her. Then it's win win, she gets her furniture, and her self esteem, and suo gets to save money (as an aside, my wife literally does this, she sets career goals and saves pictures of the stuff she'll buy when career goal is achieved, such as attaining a certain salary number, a cpa, etc). Not sure what kind of skillset she has, but there are plenty of ways to earn a decent income with a minimum of time invested in training, a year or two tops. As an added bonus, it's super emo: Not only did you remember what she said, you cared enough to think about it and bring it back up! suo-wife's dream come true! Timing is key though, you don't want to come off looking like you want her to get a job just because you don't want to pay for furniture..

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:15 pm

Sooooooo, what you're saying is that my joking for the last decade or so that when she gets old and wrinkly I'll "trade her in for the younger, hotter model" wasn't helpful?! Que horror!

Anyway, she apologized for "overreacting". I'll say!

The furniture/budget issue hasn't come up again. Sleeping dogs, etc

PS Me good (EDIT), no EXPERT, at marriage.

PPS I'm having a steak (tenderloin) for the first time in a while. Thanks for the idea, @brute.

Augustus
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Augustus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:31 pm

Que or cue?

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:23 am

He has to ask his wife.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:03 am

No funny stories about / arguments with wifey this week, sorry to disappoint.

*Start complaint*

Been feeling down. I was feeling down last August too, when I re-started this journal. Maybe there's something about August. I am burned (burnt?) out at work. It didn't help that these last two weeks have just been nothing but utter bullshit. With apologies to anyone reading this who works in compliance, but compliance people suck ass and I hate working with them. A less flexible, more brainless, more checklist engorged professional class I've never encountered. So, it's been hard not to focus on the powerful "I don't want to do this any more" feelings. Diverging my thoughts elsewhere has been a challenge, but I've tried. It's also hard when I go to work all day and my wife and kids are off playing all day. I understand it sucks ass to be with the kids all day every day, but at the same time, they went to the river yesterday and played in it all day, while I was getting dry humped by a compliance person's rigidity. Which would YOU rather be doing?

One of the things I've been trying to focus on is a goal to run a trail ultramarathon next year. Or maybe only 20 miles to start. But a long trail race nonetheless. To do that I've got to lose some weight, and I haven't really been able to make any progress on that over the last 3 weeks even though I've been trying (ketoish diet). So that's been a bummer too. I keep hoping it's because I'm gaining muscle while losing fat, but that's probably unlikely given that I run short 3x a week (slow build given the history of lower leg injuries) and only do strength training 1-2x a week.

Anyway, I've had enough, but I don't have enough, so the character building continues.

*End complaint*

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:30 am

suomalainen wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:03 am
It's also hard when I go to work all day and my wife and kids are off playing all day. I understand it sucks ass to be with the kids all day every day, but at the same time, they went to the river yesterday and played in it all day, while I was getting dry humped by a compliance person's rigidity. Which would YOU rather be doing?
I'd have to know more about the compliance officer before making that decision.

I am reading "Kissinger The Negotiator". Three Harvard professors put together a study on Kissinger's negotiating tactics in his major foreign policy efforts. Putting aside what you may feel about Kissinger (recent Clinton vs. Sanders debate), it is an interesting read and one I would suggest for you although I have a feeling Kissinger might have taken a look at your life and decided its too fucked up to work with.

I have only started but these are some things of note:

(1) Zooming In/Zooming Out

ZI = Micro perspective. Knowing the players. Their interests, their influences, their roles, their concerns, their backgrounds.
ZO = Macro perspective. Strategy, long term policy initiatives.

Successful negotiations employ a zooming in/zooming out dynamic.

(2) Empathy and assertiveness do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. One can be both simultaneously.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:18 pm

Don't really know much about Kissinger. But I did find the documentary "Fog of War" with Robert McNamara absolutely fascinating. I was really into Donald Rumsfeld's press briefings for a while in the early aughts. I just find the whole international diplomacy / strategy thing totally fascinating. If I had had an alternative career, it could have been in the state department.

Anyway, at the risk of raising something inflammatory (but it's my journal, so bugger off if you don't like it!), I came across this today as I was nursing my whinging attitude: ‘It's the breaking of a taboo’: the parents who regret having children. I think I've said this before: I love my kids, but I hate parenting. This morning as I was walking out the door, the kids had had a "living room campout" last night and the 9yr old peeks his head out of his fort and waves (which will be a wonderful memory), but...I never should have been a father.
you are allowed to think such a thing as regretting motherhood and loving your child

Jason
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Jason » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:13 pm

So you find a documentary focusing on an isolated patriarchal figure reflecting on his regrets and mistakes in supporting individuals for which he had no real understanding or genuine concern with fascinating? Shocking.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:23 pm

Is that a sentence? Can we get a grammar check in aisle 3 please? I dunno what that's supposed to mean, except you evidently don't like the man. But yes, it was fascinating.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Hristo Botev » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:10 am

It's been a few years since I saw the McNamara documentary, but I remember it blew me away. It was jarring to hear him talk about carpet bombing Japan and Vietnam with no emotion at all, and then he'd get emotional about something that seemed to me to be so small (like, if I remember correctly, his Jewish elementary school classmates going to Hebrew school on Saturdays). Also it was just fascinating to get inside the mind of someone so intelligent and analytical as he was describing the decision making that went into decades of war and other international events that shaped our country and many others. My father, a Vietnam combat vet, won't watch it and I suspect would be very much angered by the cold and calculating way McNamara talks about decision making that resulted in my father's friends dying.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:02 am

My housemate, a successful, attractive man in his late 40s, does not even have visitation access to his 3 children. He gave up, dropped his end of rope, after very vicious, extended legal battle several years ago. The last time he saw his youngest child, at a school event, she told him "It's okay if you don't want to be our Daddy anymore."

He lives in what was their marital house, and I am currently camped out in what used to be his sons' room. I had to spend a day packing up all sorts of dusty piles of little boy clothes and toys to take to the Goodwill, and I almost broke out in tears. Tragic loss.

Jason offered you a piece of excellent advice above. I know it is hard to see what you can't yet see. But, you very much need to start being more assertive, so that you can be more engaged in your family life.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:49 am

Hristo Botev wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:10 am
Also it was just fascinating to get inside the mind of someone so intelligent and analytical as he was describing the decision making that went into decades of war and other international events that shaped our country and many others.
Yes, exactly. I felt the same way talking to Gen. Patreaus (sp?).
Hristo Botev wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:10 am
My father, a Vietnam combat vet, won't watch it and I suspect would be very much angered by the cold and calculating way McNamara talks about decision making that resulted in my father's friends dying.
This all happened before I was born, so he is "just a historical figure" to me. I would be just as fascinated reading / watching about the decision-making processes of Hitler or Stalin as Churchill or Roosevelt or Truman, as he decided to drop the bomb. It's just fascinating to wander through the psyche of a normal person as they make decisions that impact nations and millions of people. Such terrible power individuals can wield.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:02 am
Jason offered you a piece of excellent advice above. I know it is hard to see what you can't yet see. But, you very much need to start being more assertive, so that you can be more engaged in your family life.
Man, I really do not get what you guys think you see from these snippets of my life that I reveal here. It's like you can't process a person having two conflicting ideas in their head at the same time. I have no problem with assertiveness, but there are certain topics that aren't clear cut for me to the point of having to struggle through the messy process of finding "my truth" and then finding "our compromise" and I don't have any problem showing how the sausage gets made here in my journal. My family's budget is one of those things and this being a sorta financial-focused journal, this is where I talk out and work out my conflicting ideas on that topic. Part of what is probably perceived as "lack of assertiveness" is that I don't know what I want - I want something where the math doesn't support it, no matter how much I squint and angle my head. "If I just adjust this one assumption" it would all work. That one assumption is "wife and three kids". So there's a struggle to come to grips with wanting the impossible and learning to let that go. In the vacuum of the known dream is the unknown alternative. Look at that "Enough" thread or other journals where retired people are trying to figure out what they want to do next. Some know exactly what they want to try and some don't. Or some think they want to try X, but then they do it and eventually it seems to run out of meaning for them, so they start drifting until they find the next thing. I don't think I'm unique in this struggle/process of making the sausage.

When it comes to my kids, I don't really have much else to say. It's okay to struggle with / hate being a parent while simultaneously loving (in action as well as in emotion) your kids. Some people find that a difficult position to accept (wife included), and I'm okay with that.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:03 am

If you want a distraction from sinking US futures this morning, you might find this entertaining:

https://nypost.com/2018/08/06/inside-th ... aire-exes/

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