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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:54 pm
by suomalainen
Smashter wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:20 pm
The one part I wonder about is where it's advised that you should only write down negative experiences. I find that writing down positive things (like in a gratitude journal) can be very helpful.
My $.02 - I think the point is don't analyze the fuck out of it, you'll just ruin it. Keep it light and fun, the way you experienced it. For example, I really enjoyed the book and those few quotes are sufficient to remind me of the salient points made and their effect on me, but I don't need to go into why those passages are salient for me. The connection to / reminder of the positive emotion elicited by the concepts is sufficient.

EDIT: Compare as a counter example, this:
suomalainen wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:14 pm
I zoom from "I want to try this" to "I want to try that" and instead of making room for this or that in a small corner of my life, I blow it out of proportion. This or that becomes "I should have built my life around this or that." Like, I get a sense that there's something missing in my current life, and instead of just making room for that on a go-forward basis, I look backward at my life ruefully that I haven't made room for this most important thing that I clearly didn't previously find all that important as I didn't do anything with it then.
For a while there, I used to even over-analyze the positive happy experiences I had. Like "why was this such a good experience? how can I do this more often? maybe I should tweak this and that about my life to make my life look more like that positive experience? and maybe I should...etc, etc." And it was...umm...not...healthy. This may come as a surprise to some folks, but I scored very highly on neuroticism on that IPIP test. :shock:

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:05 am
by Smashter
Gotcha. Sounds almost like AA for rumination. :) Better to not even "just have one."

Change is in the air

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:34 am
by suomalainen
Couple three things:

- This may just be the summer talking, but anxiety is mostly at bay and peace and warm and fuzzy feelings abound. Serenity now.
- This week I turn 40 and for the first time I will also reach 5 figures in TTM dividends. Round, but otherwise meaningless, numbers, yay.
- About a month ago, my SAHM (for past 11 years or so) wife and I had a fight over money over text message while we were sitting in different areas of the elementary school auditorium at a child's concert (good times!) and it ended with her saying "I'm tired of being resented, I'm going back to work." Sure, fine, whatever, I don't care either way, it's your thing. Fast forward a month and she mentions that she's been looking for jobs. Fast forward a couple of days to last night and she says that she could be a teaching assistant in the local school district to get her feet wet and try to re-build a resume and then maybe get certified and look for a full-time teaching position in a few years. The pay is $90/day or about $8/hr after tax. Kinda demotivating for her, but she needs to find some way to address what she perceives as my resentment towards her stay-at-homeness and what I think is similar to what @clarice and @7w5 described as feeling like a teenager on an allowance. I support and nod and do all the appropriate active listening stuff. The conversation also turns to budgeting and I mention the difference between earning money and cutting expenses and how the latter is so much more powerful due to the WR multiplier. I say something like "It would take me about 10-15 years to save a million dollars, but the equivalent could be achieved if you 'work' at cutting our spending by $40,000/yr. If the work you're looking at is going to pay you shit and not give you any sense of purpose for $8/hr, why not work for us and make us millionaires overnight?" Understanding dawns on her face. "I'll have to think about that some more..."

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:30 pm
by Smashter
Happy bday and congrats on the progress, that's huge!

Re: Change is in the air

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:37 am
by Clarice
suomalainen wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:34 am
I'm going back to work." Sure, fine, whatever, I don't care either way, it's your thing.
Are you REALLY sure? Did you think it through? It's hard to imagine you not being affected by such a drastic change in your wife's life... Do you live in suburbia? If yes, who will drive the kids to school? Who will pick them up? Who will get them to where they need to go (play dates, activities)? What else is your wife doing instead of working outside the house? Who will be doing this?Maybe tutoring instead of TA? Seems like a good way "to get her feet wet" without introducing a drastic change into the life of your family while still earning some money. I feel your wife's pain. :cry: Her feelings are facts. These facts will affect her and you regardless of whether or not she acts upon them. I have some entirely unsolicited advice to your wife. :lol: Pass it on to her at your own risk: :twisted:

1. Frown your eyebrows really hard and come up with the area of your future expertise (math? English?);
2. Think of credentials in this area that you already possess (any relevant education, volunteering experience in the past, current experience in the kids's school);
3. Put it all together and engage in a sustained advertising campaign;
4. Get your first victim;
5. Now you have real, recent, and relevant experience; get more students.
6. Frown your eyebrows really hard and think of the money that you've earned. Think a little bit harder.

I remember the days of sitting through DD's shows at her elementary school separately from DH... ugh...You'll get to the other end of it in one piece. :o

Re: Change is in the air

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:35 pm
by suomalainen
@smashter thx. Not really progress, methinks - more like an opening. We'll see if any seeds get planted.
Clarice wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:37 am
suomalainen wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:34 am
I'm going back to work." Sure, fine, whatever, I don't care either way, it's your thing.
Are you REALLY sure?
Yes. A few years ago I quit. I came home from having drinks with colleagues after work (at a time I didn't do this often) and she was all pissy at me for coming home late even though I had cleared it with her before and she had said it was fine. And she tried blaming me for her emotions. I was like "I quit". From that moment on, I have ZERO tolerance for her not owning her own shit and I no longer go out of my way to try to solve her problems for her (a problem habit I previously had). As I think @7w5 put it so nicely: don't accept responsibility where you have no authority. And you definitely have no authority over another person's emotions and how they choose to express and respond to them.

Anyway, point being that it is 100% her thing. I will neither encourage her to do X because it's what I really want for myself nor encourage her to do Y because it's what I think she really needs. She'll either figure it out on her own or she won't. The best I can (and will) do is offer clear and honest (and non-manipulative) feedback that "This isn't working for me" or "I can't support that" or "This works great" or "I can support that" so that she is aware of what the consequences of her choices are (or probably will be). She is free to ignore that feedback or include it in her decision making. That said, I have long thought that some structure (job) would do her good. Full time would not work well for her or our family, but part time would definitely be a good challenge for her. She appears to be of the same mind. But if she chooses full time work, the rest of us will be forced to adapt and...who knows? Could be good, could be bad. Few choices are irreversible, so a poor choice simply requires a new one to correct it. Time will tell.

As to your other questions: we live in suburbia. The bus picks up the elementary school kids and the middle/high schoolers can walk, even in winter. :twisted: Wife does drive them sometimes when it snows or if she otherwise wants to. I don't chauffeur when they have working feet and reasonable distances. Wife is pretty introverted and always hated play-dates so the kids rarely had them. Activities are after school and she has driven. I drive Wed and Sat. If she decides to take a job that interferes with the activities she chauffeured to, the activities would have to be dropped. She volunteered at a teaching position at her church when the youngest was in 1, 2 and 3rd grade. That's finished now. She handles most of the shopping and kids stuff. That stuff would have to be shared more if she went to work. I wouldn't mind as I would simply do the things that needed to get done my way without worrying about doing it her way. As noted above, the control issues in our marriage have been completely solved for a few years now. She is also considering some sort of business doing art teaching (her area) rather than through the schools.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:41 pm
by Clarice
Looks like you are full of resolve. Best of luck!

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:50 pm
by suomalainen
Meh. I don't know that it's resolve so much as an acceptance of the fact that it's not my problem. My problem isn't deciding whether or not she goes to work but how I would adjust to it. And in fact the question isn't really "Do I go to work or not?" The question is "how do I address these emotions" and her solution so far is "go to work". I think that is a fine solution but there are others, which I have relayed to wife. But she is the only one that can decide how to resolve her emotional reaction to our current situation.

Re: Change is in the air

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:34 am
by ThisDinosaur
suomalainen wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:35 pm
I no longer go out of my way to try to solve her problems for her (a problem habit I previously had).
I still struggle with this. After years of marriage, my instinct is still to respond to her complaining by offering solutions. I always have to remind myself that its not about the nail. Just stick to the script: "I'm so sorry, darling. That must be really difficult."

Re: Change is in the air

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:17 am
by suomalainen
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:34 am
I always have to remind myself that its not about the nail.
Ha ha ha ha ha, that is freaking hilarious! I also try to remember this (referencing a link to a video in the prior comment on the thread):
suomalainen wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:41 pm
~18:15 - The problem is to a hammer everything looks like a nail; to a problem-solver, everything looks like a problem. So that leads to a negative critical attitude towards life. Here's a problem, there's a problem. If I can't find a problem right here and right now, then I have to go out and find a problem, cause that's a problem if I can't find a problem. So I will go looking into the past for a problem to solve in the past and that's usually a resentment of some kind; I gotta solve that resentment problem. Or I'll go off into the future and try to solve some future problem and that often results in fear if I don't think I've come up with the perfect solution to that future problem. The Thinker also argues with reality - this shouldn't have happened; why did that happen. The Thinker is always rehashing and rehearsing - rehashing the past and rehearsing the future...negative emotions are a problem for the Thinker - how do I make sure this thing doesn't happen again this thing that caused this negative emotion, that's a problem. Positive emotions are also a problem - how do I make sure this happens all the time? In fact, a Thinker can turn a positive emotion into a negative emotion - the fear of what happens when this goes away, I'm going to be unhappy.
Also applies to other people's problems.

And that quote also fits nicely into a prior post about too much rumination.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:51 am
by ThisDinosaur
Totally. A problem solver with no problems is a problem. But I don't really understand how to execute any alternatives. We have a brain to DO things. Nervous systems connect to muscles to make movements and effect the world. Plants don't have brains because they don't need to move. A successful Buddhist, who eliminated all desires from himself, would fail to do anything but sit still and starve to death.

I definitely ruminate too much, but I also can't tolerate the absence of goals.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:28 am
by suomalainen
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:51 am
A successful Buddhist, who eliminated all desires from himself, would fail to do anything but sit still and starve to death.
Sitting still is doing something, wanting something. Try sitting still without wanting to sit still or trying to sit still. Can you have a goal to not have a goal? (Is this sentence false?)

Anyway, at the very least you can use your brain to choose what it is you do (spend time on), what effect on the world you have. When it comes to relationship enmeshment, choose to view a surface problem and tease out what the real problem is in your own mind. If wife complains about something, solve the problem of what's the real problem? And then use your brain to tease out who's problem is it (who has authority/responsibility to solve it)? For example, she complains you did X and it hurt her feelings. You're not (and indeed cannot be) responsible for her feelings, but did you do something that you agree/think you should change, because the identified behavior is not congruent with your values? Or is she projecting her needs/emotions onto you? If it ain't you, be compassionate but move on, she'll get over it when she sees you're not manipulable. You have plenty of your own problems, my friend, so focus on those. I doubt you spend time on the mid-east peace problem, so why spend time on your wife's problems? Unless she asks for help removing the nail, at which point by all means go to town and dig that sucker out.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:01 pm
by ThisDinosaur
Well, I meditate (badly) and I am sort of analytical. So I've come to the stoic conclusion that its not the thing, its how you feel about the thing. Compulsive ruminating makes me uncomfortable. Is ruminating the problem? Or is my discomfort about it the problem?

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:13 pm
by Jason
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:51 am
A successful Buddhist, who eliminated all desires from himself, would fail to do anything but sit still and starve to death.
Don't Buddhists believe in reincarnation? They come back as an earthworm or cat or an annoying Hollywood actress? Unless Serena William's shower head is on the table, I want no part of having to return to this bundle of bullshit. And even then I'm not so sure. To have to go all through all this again. Childhood with a bat shit crazy mother, then a life of work, saving money to retire. Fuck it. And my luck I'll come back as Soumalainen. Or worse, his wife.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:51 pm
by suomalainen
@TD

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts whenever I do this [indicating]. How can I make it stop hurting?"

Doctor: "Don't do that."

Is there a deeper answer to your question? Maybe ruminate on it until you find The Truth.

@jace Well aren't we just Mr. Grumpypants?

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:24 pm
by Jason
@Suo

JKing

My therapy has been focused on getting out of a performance based mind set - "I will be happy if" or "If only I had done this" or "I need to do this." The whole system is doomed to failure. I think people are afraid that if they give it up, they will realize that they will have nothing in its stead. But it's not being. It's performing. And I'm tired of being a clown to some artificial expectations that I have just assumed without even knowing I have taken them on.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:05 pm
by suomalainen
Holy shit, that is the most real thing you have ever said (written).

Now, tie it all back to your mom and you'll achieve the therapy realization holy grail! J/k, but not really, probably. Painful but ultimately freeing process, at least for me.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:30 am
by Jason
suomalainen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:05 pm
Holy shit, that is the most real thing you have ever said (written).
Oh, I was joking about that too.

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:17 am
by 7Wannabe5
@suomalainen:

I agree that trying to fix another human's emotions is like trying to drain a black-hole swamp, but I am wondering if you are neglecting to consider the possibility that your wife might choose to divorce you? What I see going on here is a classic pattern where nobody is truly willing to be the decision maker within the relationship. IOW, you are not offering your wife the straight-forward choice of going along with your plan or striking out on her own, because you are running some sort of covert script/contract in your mind only. So, your behavior has become largely passive aggressive rather than assertive.

Counter-example:

H: There is not enough good land here in New York to support our growing family. We need to go West.

W: (wringing hands)...but, my pianoforte, my sisters, our church...?

H: (actually attempt empathy AKA honoring preferences of other AKA the opposite or antidote for arrogance AKA cherishment) I know that you love your music and family and God. I remember when I first saw you in that blue dress playing the organ so sweetly and you stole my heart. I promise you that we will find a way to bring music, family and religion into our new home,... but we need to go West.

I would be offering your wife other advice in alignment with gender-dichotomy relationship theory if she were in the room, but one good thing about gender-dichotomy relationship theory is you can often just do your part and then your partner will naturally assume complementary better functioning. Basically, what you are doing is attempting to free trade Cherishment for Respect within the boundaries of your relationship.

What you are doing now is the often observed repressed grouchy guy thing. IOW, you don't quite have the balls to deal with the possible consequences of offering your wife clear leadership directive, so all you can do is sulk and occasionally snap. The fact that she is now seeking employment outside the home as solution, within a situation where this isn't economic imperative or in alignment with her own purpose in her masculine energy, is highly indicative of a semi-conscious attempt on her part to relieve the anxiety your behavior is provoking by becoming more of her own husband. My prediction is if the situation doesn't otherwise change, she will naturally choose to divorce you as soon as her own income + expected child-support/alimony/settlement = reasonable financial security in her mind. This conclusion will be greatly accelerated if/when she finds 3rd party support in social circle.


And, I don't want to hear anything along the lines of "But, 7WB5, that's not the way you behave yourself.", because I am an old woman who has already raised her children, and therefore I have earned the right to play around again :lol:

Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:46 am
by Jason
Ouch, Suo. I understood at least 63.85% of that post and it appears as though you are ruminating your way straight to divorce court.