Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

[Jason]

(@) Suo

I know you care about your wife and your marriage.

But damn. After watching this, there should be laws against gang gestalt.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@Augustus

I’m not sure I am confused. “Show you care” seems simple enough. “Get emotional” seems simple enough, it’s evident to anyone reading my posts I am prone to hot-headedness.

If a marital union is established between two parties with two completely different value systems, how is that rectified? “We want different things in life.” If I want to read books, save my money, and acquire financial independence, how is compromise possible if the woman wants to watch reality television shows, spend her money frivolously, and take pictures of said frivolities and post them on Instagram? “The problem originates in the malinvestment, and in the ensuing crash there can be no successful intervention.”

I like the idea of a man and woman yelling at each other, uncovering the miscommunications, and then having passionate makeup sex. It’s great for theatre, and I love theatre. But as I will not be growing a liking to reality television shows or watching my blood, sweat, and tears go toward the purchase of empty status symbols, I do not know how that gets rectified.

Am I oversimplifying?

It sounds as though Suo has a handle, and perhaps this is more in sympathy with ThisDinosaur. Perhaps we can indeed subject him to our terrible gaze, as I have no wife or lover, and withdraw from such a gaze to the loving affection of my right hand.

[Mister Imperceptible]

Oh Augustus.....Suo’s journal is not the place. I might finally have to start journaling.

[EdithKeeler]

4) I tell my wife I love her all the time. Just plain smother her with it. That said...I suck at romance. Just plain suck at it. It doesn't even occur to me.

“I love you” means nothing. Or very little. We love the dog. We love ice cream. We love the new dress.

It’s like management: it’s not sufficient to tell your employees they’re doing a great job. They want to hear specific feedback. “Your preparation for the presentation made all the difference in getting the Johnson account. You were ready for every one of their qyuestions. Great job!”

Same with a relationship. “I look at you with our kids and I realize that everything you do is the reason we’re raising great humans. Not only do you chauffeur them to soccer, but the way you really listen to them shows how much you care.” Or whatever.

YOU know that “I love you” means all that, but she doesn’t unless you tell her sometimes.

[suomalainen]

Oh Augustus.....Suo’s journal is not the place. I might finally have to start journaling.

No, no, by all means. This is highly entertaining for me (and maybe/hopefully distracting to others! Ha ha!).

[suomalainen]

@EK. I do that too. Or I’m better at it now. Frequency may need to increase. And I guess “going all emo” needs to be added.

[7Wannabe5]

I wrote a lot of stuff on sexual-dichotomy theory on an old thread which is entitled something like "Are ERE men attractive?" I am having trouble relocating/linking it here. C40 has read some of the same books such as "Way of the Superior Man" as me, so his take on dominance might be better understood by you guys then my take. The dominance and charm which work very well for men, such as C40, in the short-run, must be reformulated as "leadership" and "cherishment" within the scope of a major committed relationship.

[7Wannabe5]

What if the man has laid out a vision, and the woman says, "we want very different things in life and that makes me sad" ? How does one proceed?

Well, first let me offer your wife a brief "Bravo" if that is something she actually said with sincerity. You might have responded with something like "I think we ultimately want many of the same things in life, such as love, security and freedom. What I am hearing is that you are fearful about extending me enough trust to take my hand and follow me through the dark alley of life, along the course that I have suggested as means of achieving these things together."

There is, in theory, something known as the "good divorce." This can occur when two very self-aware, strong and loving individuals realize that beyond differences in preferences, tactics, strategies, practices, and purposes, they no longer even share the same Truth.

Is it possible to put the non-working wife on an allowance without her becoming a brat because of an imposed limitation on frivolity?

This is difficult for me to answer, because I would never object to being put on an allowance if I didn't have to work and I was having a lot of great sex. I probably would behave like a brat if I was put on a sex allowance and made to work, except I am too self-aware to do that now. However, I'm not exactly your average female, because I once even let a BF reward me with sex for losing weight. All my female friends were practically tearing their hair out when I told them about it, but I was like-Win-Win.

[IlliniDave]

Wow, a very vivid reminder in the recent conversation of why I've unconsciously/accidentally wound up MGTOW-lite.

suomalainen, from what you've described your situation sounds like a scaled-down version of my own plight pre-1/4/2008. Of course this may not apply to your situation at all, so take it with a strong dose of skepticism, but my ex- was a fundamentally unhappy person. She sought to fix that through external things to include relationships and me (though the pattern started long before I showed up, dunno how the last ten years have gone for her). With me it worked for a while but ultimately whatever issues that were undermining her internally, I did not fix, and it just made things worse. If you want a perhaps bad analogy: adding external insulin to a type-II diabetic does not help the condition (it arguably worsens it). The way to reverse the condition is through addressing the cause (nutrition), which is ultimately something the patient must do for themselves. All the ways I contorted myself in a good-faith attempt to keep up in the emotional game of Twister just exacerbated the situation. It sometimes worked for a day or a week or even a month, but eventually the effect wore off and the original issues reappeared, incrementally worsened by my efforts.

Oddly, even though the marriage did not work out, I learned something, or at least became much more conscious of it, that's had a huge positive effect on my subsequent life. It's a phrase I often repeat: "happiness comes from within." I think it takes two complete persons to forge a good relationship. I don't think one person being 133% can make up for a hole in the other person over the long haul. That's what had led me to MGTOW-lite mode. As soon as I detect a potential partner blames her misfortune on prior relationships and/or has some perceived hole in her life that impedes happiness and needs filling (no double entendre intended there), I back away at a pace that would justify use of the term "flee". Helping with those situations in the context of "just friends" is fine, but embarking on a relationship under those conditions is a thought that makes me shudder. That may sound cold, but if a potential relationship isn't good for me, in the long run it isn't going to be a good relationship.

A few of the ladies have weighed in and I have the same response to some of what they said that you did: huh? Maybe that is a fatal flaw in my psyche and why I made an apparently lousy husband despite being a reasonably decent provider and father/step-father. There seems to be some magic autonomous behaviors we're expected to manifest with flawless timing (I suppose because they perceive it in their girlfriends' partners or saw fleeting glimpses of it in the past). But as time passes I tend to think that some of what appears to be irrational frustrations in relationships arise because one party or the other (works both ways between the genders) is rooted in lack of awareness of underlying issues at the personal level. There's a fine line (albeit an often shifting one) between being supportive and encouraging/nurturing to help tease those things out, and being just another syringe full of insulin. Hopefully that's not the case for you, or if so that it's mild. For whatever good advice from someone who objectively failed in the endeavor will do, just do your best and be patient. Seems you've already grokked that you can't just fix the symptoms (and that's probably not what's wanted). Maybe just listening extra carefully and asking questions with compassionate phrasing will help any true problems come out into the open so the cause can be addressed versus running around trying to assuage (or just ignoring) the individual symptoms as they arise.

We can all offer advice/insight on what you might have done differently at specific junctures, but what is really important is to get her to articulate it to you (because we're only guessing), which might not be an easy thing for her, nor one she can effectively put into words right away. And it's possible the converse needs to happen at times too.

[7Wannabe5]

MGTOW-lite

Isn't this a bit like just slicing off the tip of your nose to spite your face?

Of course, I'm not one to talk since I am currently exhibiting some degree of same/opposite functioning. I keep myself free by not binding myself to any man in particular, just like you keep yourself free by not binding yourself to any woman at all. Same difference given alternate roles in current market. For me, not dating at all would be like keeping a vacation rental property vacant. Doesn't make sense until/unless maintenance costs over-ride rental proceeds.

[Mister Imperceptible]

iDave has to be leery because he knows the gentle voice that talks to him, won’t talk forever. She’s going to get him:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d73tiBBzvFM

[Jason]

For me, not dating at all would be like keeping a vacation rental property vacant.

For a more robust understanding of the analogy, we are to visualize the vacation rental property as a time share, correct?

[IlliniDave]

MGTOW-lite

Isn't this a bit like just slicing off the tip of your nose to spite your face?

Call it what you will, but life is good on balance so why muck it up by shoehorning a relationship into it just because it's a thing to do, like some sort of status signaling? If I run across someone whose presence improves things on multiple fronts, well, that's where the "-lite" comes in.

... It make sense until/unless maintenance costs over-ride rental proceeds.

This is much closer to the mark. I don't command much in the way of rent so crossing that threshold is nearly instantaneous.

But my purpose is not to whine about my life as a single, just to convey some understanding via shared experience with what Suo is wrestling with.

[7Wannabe5]

For a more robust understanding of the analogy, we are to visualize the vacation rental property as a time share, correct?

More like an airbnb morphed with an old-fashioned boarding house. Like you can make your reservations online, but you have to take off your hat and mind your manners at table, and help a bit with the chores.

This is much closer to the mark. I don't command much in the way of rent so crossing that threshold is nearly instantaneous.

lol- Well, also the case that some of your life-energy-spend options might be better. I mean, if I have to choose between spending another hour at the margin tutoring recalcitrant children in mathematics for net $15/hr vs. listening to some guy complain about his ex wife at the rate of 1 free very good Thai dinner/hr., I am sometimes going to choose option 2, because I really like Thai food and I kind of like disaster stories. Of course, I am also sometimes going to choose Option 3 of stay at home and eat pudding while reading chick-lit.

[Jason]

For a more robust understanding of the analogy, we are to visualize the vacation rental property as a time share, correct?

More like an airbnb morphed with an old-fashioned boarding house. Like you can make your reservations online, but you have to take off your hat and mind your manners at table, and help a bit with the chores.

I guess this leads to the perennial question of how many nights the traveler has to stay at the boarding house before they are awakened by the smell of freshly baked muffins.

[7Wannabe5]

I guess this leads to the perennial question of how many nights the traveler has to stay at the boarding house before they are awakened by the smell of freshly baked muffins.

Well, it has been my experience that if a man is ever likely to be "awakened" by my muffins, the awakening will occur within moments of first view of the accommodations available. However, I suppose that your inquiry is more concerned with rule of thumb regarding when the muffins will be offered for consumption? The answer would be that it varies, but maybe 3.5 night median? Sadly, I must report that due to digestive particularities and some rigidities of form suffered by the gentleman travelers of an age likely to visit with me, often it is they who demur.

[Jason]

I was surprised to hear that some were down on her muffins.

[7Wannabe5]

@Augustus:

I didn't get "pervert emo*" from Jason's question. More like "smart-azz younger brother persecuting me as I am applying lipstick before a date." However, it is true that generally most women, myself included, find humor attractive. File under category "Charm" not "Emo."


*Actually, your invention and application of the phrase "pervert emo" in relationship to my preferences also struck me as younger brother persecutory style humor. I think this might somehow be related to behavior that is sometimes referred to in man-speak as "cock-blocking."

[jennypenny]

I wrote a lot of stuff on sexual-dichotomy theory on an old thread which is entitled something like "Are ERE men attractive?" I am having trouble relocating/linking it here.

This? How do ERE men attract women?

Sorry for the continued hijack Suo.

[Jason]

@Augustus:

I didn't get "pervert emo*" from Jason's question. More like "smart-azz younger brother persecuting me as I am applying lipstick before a date." However, it is true that generally most women, myself included, find humor attractive. File under category "Charm" not "Emo."

At this point, I don't think its possible to jack Suo's thread as it has reached Texas Book Depository level of general human dysfunction, but for purposes of both transparency and self-examination, I believe I have always viewed 7W5 in a sibling context, and of the three possible incarnations i.e. full, step, or half I would chose the last of the three, and would add "long lost" to that as well. There is sufficient and constant evidence of shared DNA that makes any non-verbal communication not only implausible but deleterious and ultimately shameful. Through documentation and imaging, I am peripherally aware of secondary sexual characteristics but there is a psychological electrical fence that does not allow for a possibility of a physical roaming of those fields.

If I was to concoct an origination story it would be something like this: My father Don Drapered her mother on a business trip around the time he was for some unfathomable reason considering marrying my mother. There were a few letter exchanges acknowledging pregnancy and agreement that were shoe boxed away until one of us discovered dusty secret and pursued. Upon arriving at camper site and seeing 7, my thought would have been something to the extent "I can definitely see why he banged her mother but decided to leave alone for a variety reasons one most likely being that the pillow talk veered towards the indecipherable." So she's not growing up having seen her naked as a child and experiencing ambiguous feelings and later having a momentary lapse of empathy when I caught her crying because she got stood up after spending all day getting herself ready sister. She's not "Son, I would like you to meet your new sister" in that adolescent holy shit porno permissible kind of way but a "My uptight dad planted a seed in your fertile earth mother a half century ago" sister where the contemplation of repeating that event cannot be entertained even though from a distant galaxy global viewpoint it shadows the earth and explains why my eternal knows-no-bounds adolescent self quotes Steven Tyler lyrics in her presence.