cimorene12's journal: change or die

Where are you and where are you going?
cimorene12
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:57 am

Thank you, Noedig. :)

Haha, yeah, lots of moving parts to be sure.

cimorene12
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Joe Cohen is offering $10k for someone to set him up with a girlfriend he'll stay with for 4+
months: https://selfhacked.com/blog/10000-rewar ... irlfriend/

There's a $2k second degree referral bonus as well. It's such an INTJ thing to do, to lay down a list of things he wants in a very orderly fashion.

It reminded me of Ramit Sethi, who I think did a deep study of dating and attraction at some point.
A friend of mine had a crush on one of my friends, a big-name, top-tier guy. She was mystified that he didn’t seem to be into her, and she asked for my advice. I don’t usually give relationship advice (because people are weirdos and start hating you when you don’t tell them they’re the greatest), but she was persistent.

I said one thing: “What kind of woman does a man like him want?”

She responded with generic BS: “Confident, smart, blah blah.”

I said, “Ok, just stop. This dude is a high-caliber man. He is SWIMMING in women. Of course he wants that — but that’s just the price of admission. What else?”

She was stumped — and admitted she’d never really thought of what HE would want — because in her mind, for her entire life, she’d been the prize that men pursued.

It turned out there were a few things she COULD work on. She recognized that to attract a top-tier partner, she had to be at the top of your game.

(By the way, this is just as true for guys. It’s not enough to just coast by — improving yourself means becoming more interesting, fit, engaging, and entertaining. When you become the life of the party, women will be attracted to you, instead of simply having to chase after whatever you can get. Harsh truths.

I know this first-hand. Over the last 10 years, I systematically improved myself mentally, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. When my friends and I used to walk up and introduce ourselves to girls, they would walk away in the MIDDLE OF OUR INTRODUCTION. That doesn’t happen any more.

Back then, I had crippling beliefs. For example, I would always tell jokes with friends, and girls would laugh, but they would laugh like this: “Oh ha ha…he’s so funny…some girl is really gonna like him one day” (Classic Nice Guy Syndrome). Overcoming them literally took YEARS, so I know why it’s so challenging to hear someone say you should work on yourself.)
I think about the price of admission bit quite frequently. "Oh, I want him to be tall, dark, and handsome." And maybe that's a woman's price of admission, but a guy can be tall, dark, and handsome and not click. Chemistry is kind of a nonsense word, but one of my social psychology professors based his entire career on human attraction and relationships, and it really is there. There are a lot of things that you can do to boost your allure to the opposite sex. If I'd been naming Tucker's book, I would've called it Peacock and done it as a Neil Strauss-ish investigative journalism piece.

I used to talk about The Mating Grounds podcast a lot, when it was ongoing. It's still something that I dive back into occasionally, despite not buying the book, Mate. They relaunched it with a new cover but it has sold nowhere near as many copies as Tucker's previous books. It's so much more serious and it's a self-help book, whereas Tucker's previous books are about getting drunk and making bad decisions. It's way easier to convince people to laugh than it is to ask them to change their lifestyle.

Bringing it back to Joe Cohen, he said this:
Six months ago, I felt like my businesses stabilized and were successful enough that I could then settle down and be comfortable.

Now, at the age of 30 (born 03/1987), my main goal in life has turned to finding a long-term companion. I don’t think we’re designed to live life alone.

I had assumed that if I’m a kind and easy-going person with little mental baggage, and was financially successful, it shouldn’t be too hard to date someone that I’d be interested in, given that I’m not bad looking. However, reality smacked me in the face
What I thought about was whether that part was the price of admission. Sure, women appreciate kind and easy-going men with little mental baggage who are financially stable, but that's not exactly alluring. It's just the price of admission (well, for some. For other woman, they'll accept cruel and controlling guys with truckloads of baggage who aren't financially stable, but we'll talk about that later).

So, faced with the quandary of finding a worthy girlfriend, what did Joe do?
Leaving no stone unturned, I went on every dating platform out there and literally went through every match within a 30-mile radius. The apps started saying “there is no one left in your area.”

Thinking I might be doing something wrong, I even paid 2 different girls to do the online and app dating for me. No luck.

I approached women on the street. I tried out bars and venues, activities, meetups and other events. No luck.

I got a whole new wardrobe, started working out, bought a new Benz, bought furniture and gadgets to make my room look cool, became more extroverted, got lasik, and more. I ended up attracting the wrong types of women that I wasn’t interested in anyway.
The wardrobe matters, as long as someone who knew what she or he was doing bought it, working out is fine, and the ambiguous "more" could also be fine. He bought a new Benz, bought furniture and gadgets, "became more extroverted," and bought Lasik surgery. And then he realized that he'd attracted the wrong types of women.

You bought a Benz, furniture, gadgets, and Lasik and you're surprised that you attracted women interested in material things?

(Trying to be fair, in Southern California it DOES matter what kind of car you drive. But to decide that in order to get a girlfriend who'll last for a few months, you must buy a new Benz is a strange thing, at least to me.)

http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/05/1 ... r-company/
I went out with this guy who was married for sixteen months, and his wife is getting about three million dollars in the settlement. Of course he is very upset about the whole thing. But mostly because he thinks she’s crazy.

My alarms go off immediately. I think he might be crazy. Because, as my divorce lawyer says, “A ten never marries a one.” Which is to say that you get what you are.

I ask my date why he’s so upset that she’s getting three million. Because, after all, he earned way more than that while he was with her. (Yes, true.)

He says that she is a raving alcoholic and he didn’t know that when he married her.

Then he orders his second Jack and Ginger.

I have had so few drinks in my life that I don’t even know what Jack and Ginger is.

But here’s what happens: We go out on one date, and I drink. It only takes me about a half a glass of wine to be way more easy-going and flirty than I could ever manage if I were sober. And he asks me out again.

On the next date, he has four beers and I don’t drink, and it is obvious to me that things are not going well.

And it is also obvious to me that he will marry another alcoholic. He likes that in a girl.

But he still complains that he can’t believe he married someone who is so unstable. I can’t believe he doesn’t see what marrying that person says about him. I do not tell him that people who have four drinks on every date marry alcoholics. I do tell him, “A ten does not marry a one.”

The wisdom falls on dead ears.
Going back a little:
cimorene12 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:35 pm
“There were a lot of men to date with disposable income who wanted to take women out. It’s just, it was so boring,” she said. “My dating life went from dating artists and writers and going on cheap but exciting dates, to men who thought the ability to buy someone an expensive meal made them interesting.”
That last bit is the essence of the whole article. There are men who 'make it' and they take women out on dates. And they think that simply the ability to pay for dinner makes them worthwhile.

It doesn't.

Pursuing or being FI doesn't preclude dating women at all. If you cook Italian wedding soup (extremely easy) and bring it out to the park for a first date, that's awesome. Bonus points if you bake something with chocolate in it for dessert. That girl, if you're not absolutely terrible at social interaction, will probably go on a second date with you.

You can afford to take a different girl to El Molino every night and still never be successful with women. There are billionaires who are terrible with women. A lot of guys seem to have this script in their heads: IF I have money THEN I can be successful with women ELSE I won't be able to date anybody. And then they find out that earning a decent amount of money (I consider $80k pretty solidly middle class) isn't enough to be successful with women. Tucker talks about the times when he was living on Ramen and he was dating lots of women who would bring him food, because he was so generous with his time and connections and made them laugh.

Also from Material Proof:
Like you wouldn’t believe how many guys I know who are fuck ass wealthy. I mean like, they have their own planes and shit right? And they own buildings and they are billionaires. I know a couple of billionaires actually. I mean, I know quite a few but I know a few billionaires who are terrible with women and basically don’t get girls or the type of women they get are really awful gold diggers and they hate it. Or even if they get pretty decent women in terms of the scale of gold diggers, those guys feel super inadequate and don’t like it because they know those women are with them because they have money and no other reason. That they don’t give a fuck about them at all. They only care about their money.
I've been watching behind the scenes as a lot of women in their twenties and thirties try to date. I don't want to get too specific about it, but the gaffes are just astonishing. I'm not saying that women are easy to date (I know they aren't), but there are very strange things that happen. Example: https://www.facebook.com/all4/videos/1174438319357519/

It would be really easy to do a Tucker Max style put down of this guy and make fun of him. I don't want to do that. I just think that his lack of self-awareness is mind-boggling. He's so aggressive and confident in the video and doesn't seem to be getting the nonverbal signals from the woman that she's very uncomfortable. I wonder how many guys pay, not to become pickup artists, but to become date material. For all we know, that dude could be kind, easy-going, and financially stable with little baggage as well. He's not a bad guy and is objectively physically attractive. There is someone for everyone, and maybe he'll find a woman who really likes how aggressive he is (what I sometimes see referred to by men as being "alpha" and by women as being a creeper).

Meanwhile, there are very sweet boys who'll write odes to your beauty all day but go on twenty dates and never lean down for a kiss. And on the aggressive side of the spectrum, there'll be guys who show up for first dates and try 9+ times to kiss the girl when she responds every time with "I don't want to kiss you" while physically blocking the kiss. The Hitch 90% of the distance kiss is totally cool. Once. Not nine times in one night if every previous attempt was verbally and physically pushed away. Learning how to interact with the opposite gender (this applies to men and women) is a skill on which you have to work.

By offering $10k (+$2k possibly), Joe Cohen is bypassing the skill of figuring out how to attract and hold onto women by just throwing money at the problem.

Jacob talks about skill vs. money in depth in many places, but there's the hilarious blog post about saving money by thinking which I'm going to quote here.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/man-s ... nking.html
You know, I used to buy my breakfast everyday, $5.99 for an egg and a muffin, and it was costing me tons of money, but then I started thinking. When you think about it, frying an egg is really not that hard. So now I just do that and I’m saving more than $2000 each year”, Jane told your intrepid reporter.
Joe is clearly willing to make changes to increase his attractiveness, but he's not doing it in a way that will increase his skill. He's treating it like Tucker Max treats recruiting for his business (I'll give you $1k if I end up hiring someone you forward this email to). I've been told that Joe's website of things he wants is normal in certain groups, but definitely not in mine.

It's gone viral enough that I feel sure he'll get several first dates out of it, and maybe he'll even find a girl in SoCal willing to date him for 4+ months. It's not that his actions aren't replicable, because they are. But it's so weird to me that he'll pay for what Tucker was able to obtain with jokes and quality time when Tucker was barely able to afford Ramen. You can follow ERE's philosophy/ideas and eat lentil soup (this is a joke, if that's not apparent) and forgo spending $10k on finding a girlfriend if you just figure out how to be attractive to women. That might sound like a big task, but it's literally written down on The Mating Grounds Podcast and in their book. There are concrete action steps. But there's a big gap between knowing and doing. You can set goals, but executing them is another matter. I wish Joe Cohen the best, although I think there's a cheaper and arguably easier way to go about things.

CS
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm

Hi Cimorene,

Joe Cohen's apparent lack of self awareness is mind boggling. Can I vent a bit about this?
From this.
cimorene12 wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:22 pm
Six months ago, I felt like my businesses stabilized and were successful enough that I could then settle down and be comfortable.

Now, at the age of 30 (born 03/1987), my main goal in life has turned to finding a long-term companion. I don’t think we’re designed to live life alone.

I had assumed that if I’m a kind and easy-going person with little mental baggage, and was financially successful, it shouldn’t be too hard to date someone that I’d be interested in, given that I’m not bad looking. However, reality smacked me in the face
This guy is not laid back and easy going *at all*. He has a checklist a mile long - and he is looking for some generic peg for his current need. First off, ick. I can't imagine that is going to be all that attractive to women! Who wants to be just another tool in his life box?

Second, he's in South Cal. There are way more men than women there. Way more. And those men have loads of money. So, he is barely scratching in at the minimum price of admission. Honestly, he'd have better luck trying in the mid-west, or even New York, if that's the level he wants to be at and win.

Third, and this ties in the with the first point, he is rigid. He has a plan, and it's going to go in his order. Again, not going to work that well in this day and age, especially as he gets older and meets older woman with the same sort of thinking.

He probably would have been better off sticking with someone he cared about from his younger days, poor or not, than trying to approach it this way.

On the other hand, it might be an easy way to make 10k if you know someone. :D
Last edited by CS on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Stahlmann
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by Stahlmann » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:56 pm

At first:
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
This guy is not laid back and easy going *at all*. He has a checklist a mile long - and he is looking for some generic peg for his current need. First off, ick. I can't imagine that is going to be all that attractive to women! Who wants to be just another tool in his life box?

But then:
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
Second, he's in South Cal. There are way more men than women there. Way more. And those men have loads of money. So, he is barely scratching in at the minimum price of admission. Honestly, he'd have better luck trying in the mid-west, or even New York, if that's the level he wants to be at and win.
:D

EDIT: Ok, I forgot about forum's "die Ordnung"... To provide some value... I must say I've seen many ladies who would use long lists with requirements, waaaaay more insane (as with height fetish - only small percentage of men is taller than X). I'd say that John isn't demanding at all.

CS
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:22 pm

@stahlmann

And yet, he has no mate and wants one. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

My first point, I guess, also is along the lines that he is not really taking the time to find out what it takes to make a woman love him. Wooing a woman is an art, and it revolves mostly about making her feel special (oh so important). Filling a job opening is not the same as 'special'. Buying more stuff on his side, sure, minimum price of admission. That is not going to be enough to get what he wants. He needs to woo.

In the midwest, there is a shortage of men, and frankly, it has led a lot of them to be turds because they can get away with it and still have female companionship. This guy does not have that luxury.

FWIW, I'm not saying there aren't demanding women out there. I know there are. But this guy is going to have a lot better luck if he at least knows himself. I think that is where the self-improvement stuff comes in. You can't fix what you don't even see.

cimorene12
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:44 pm

CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
This guy is not laid back and easy going *at all*. He has a checklist a mile long - and he is looking for some generic peg for his current need. First off, ick. I can't imagine that is going to be all that attractive to women!
It's not. You're dead on.
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
Second, he's in South Cal. There are way more men than women there. Way more. And those men have loads of money. So, he is barely scratching in at the minimum price of admission. Honestly, he'd have better luck trying in the mid-west, or even New York, if that's the level he wants to be at and win.

Yeah, he's from the East Coast (I think, I didn't read the entire webpage because it's so long). He recognizes that his mating market is suboptimal, so he'd definitely be better off going somewhere that there are far more single women than men.
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
Third, and this ties in the with the first point, he is rigid. He has a plan, and it's going to go in his order. Again, not going to work that well in this day and age, especially as he gets older and meets older woman with the same sort of thinking.

He probably would have been better off sticking with someone he cared about from his younger days, poor or not, than trying to approach it this way.
Right.
Stahlmann wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:56 pm
To provide some value... I must say I've seen many ladies who would use long lists with requirements, waaaaay more insane (as with height fetish - only small percentage of men is taller than X). I'd say that John isn't demanding at all.
There's no contradiction in what CS has said. Joe is looking for a ten while being a six (those are arbitrary numbers). He's looking for a Perfect Woman while not being able to compete at that level, especially in Orange County where the ratio of single men to women means that women can be very picky. That's my point about self-improvement and awareness. None of us are perfect, but at least we can figure out why we're not getting what we want vs. solving it by throwing money at the problem.
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:22 pm
FWIW, I'm not saying there aren't demanding women out there. I know there are. But this guy is going to have a lot better luck if he at least knows himself. I think that is where the self-improvement stuff comes in. You can't fix what you don't even see.
Right. It's not a gender-specific thing to have a list of requirements. I don't think Joe understands why he isn't as attractive as he thinks he is. I feel like he expected lovely ladies to just flock to him when he put out the bat signal, and then he was shocked when what he was offering wasn't very enticing. He says that he left no stone unturned, but that's absolutely not true in an area where single women are scarce and have very high expectations.

CS
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:15 pm

cimorene12 wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:44 pm
I don't think Joe understands why he isn't as attractive as he thinks he is. I feel like he expected lovely ladies to just flock to him when he put out the bat signal , and then he was shocked when what he was offering wasn't very enticing. He says that he left no stone unturned, but that's absolutely not true in an area where single women are scarce and have very high expectations.
:lol:

Little bit of culture shock, I'm sure. I personally loved the difference between CA and the Midwest. CA men were more overtly friendly, smiled more, made eye contact, etc. I was visible again (women will know what this means), as opposed to nonexistent.

I have a male friend who hates CA for probably the exact same reason but being on the other end of it. Minnesota, on the other hand, is great for him.

CS
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:21 pm

Sorry to post so much on your journal, but I did want to say thank you for sharing so much. Jacob pointed out your journal (and a few others) when I mentioned writing. I ended up binge reading it over a few days. I'm now joined DD thanks to you! Hope the writing is going well.

cimorene12
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:19 am

Haha, yes, when I was in Los Angeles in 2015, I noted how much my stock went up. People acted like I was gorgeous everywhere I went, which felt weird. That was the stuff about Dorothy in the Emerald City that I wrote.

I'm glad that you're on DD! Last month, I hit the USA Today list for the fourth time, which was ok. Don't worry about speaking up in my journal. Do it as much as you like. Obviously I can go on and on about the publishing business, so if you want to PM me questions, I can answer some. I'm not omniscient, though. :)

CS
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:50 am

Oh my gosh! Congrats on the USA Today list!! Four times! Wow.

cimorene12
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:57 pm

Thank you. :)

cimorene12
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:32 pm

I enjoy reading other journals, even if I'm no longer updating mine on a daily basis.

LIFELONG LEARNING
Jason wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:13 am
The chapter was if anything, an homage to learning and continued education. It provided a challenge to me in expanding my education to topics that I don't like, mainly those things that involve actually doing practical things. I like to learn, but only the things I like to learn which is essentially limited to books. There has been slight progress however.
I like the slow read-through of ERE.

It reminded me of one of the TED videos that I really enjoy and reference constantly, Meg Jay's https://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_3 ... the_new_20

I don't think that her point about "identity capital" only applies to people in their twenties. I've read the book, and I can tell you that the video is better. It's more concise and expresses her basic thoughts.

I was told by two people who went back for more a few years after graduating with their bachelor's degrees that it was hard to get back into the mindset of learning, because when you're in a corporate job, that part of your brain is shut off.

I didn't have that experience, probably for a combination of factors. First, I still did Coursera classes/certificates after I graduated from college. Second, the terrible job documented at the beginning of this journal was weirdly set up somewhat like grad school. They required you to submit your MCAT, LSAT, GMAT, and GRE scores if you had them. They cared about your high school GPA and your SAT/ACT scores. Getting a job there was not unlike applying for grad school, except the company offered quite a bit more money than the average grad stipend. But I was always learning and trying to acquire more knowledge. Third, being an entrepreneur means that the competitive landscape is ever-evolving. I can't STOP looking up new knowledge because what's true today may not be true tomorrow. If I were to close down my business, I suppose, I could stop.

JEREMY SHULER
Curiosity matters, I think. I remember reading about Jeremy Shuler when he started attending Cornell at age 12.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/gra ... 3f913a6ffb
When he was a year and a half old, he asked his mother about an email she was typing to a friend in Seoul, and she off-handedly showed him letters in Korean. The next day he was combining consonant and vowel sounds to make syllables. And he was reading a book in Korean.

Something had clicked. By the time he was 2, Jeremy could easily read both Korean and English on his own.
I couldn't even read ONE language by the time I was 2. He's not exactly a math kid, but his mother has a doctorate in aerospace engineering and home-schooled him. There's a lot of shock value in having a 12-year-old enter an Ivy League college, but it was the right place for him and Cornell made sure that he'd have support before they admitted him.
Harrey Shuler felt confident that she could teach math and science at a high-school level. Mostly, she didn’t teach though, she said: Jeremy was so happy and so interested in things, such a voracious reader of anything from encyclopedias to math books, that she acted more as a guide, answering questions.

It’s hard to hold him back, his father said, because he just dives into everything.
I have a fraction of Jeremy's curiosity and drive to learn, but I do have it. It's why I've studied so many different things.

HEDGEHOG AND FOX
I learned about the concept from Peter Thiel. http://blakemasters.com/post/2186993424 ... otes-essay
Peter Thiel: Isaiah Berlin wrote an essay called “The Hedgehog and the Fox.” It revolved around a line from an ancient Greek poet: foxes know many little things, but hedgehogs know one big thing. People tend to think that foxes are best because they are nimble and have broad knowledge. But in business, it’s better to be a hedgehog if you have to choose between the two. But you should still try and know lots of little things too.
I'm much more of a fox than a hedgehog, but there are some subject areas that I've devoted a few years of my life to studying. Obviously when you get a PhD in something (as Jacob did with nuclear astrophysics), that's a hedgehog move.

MASTERY
I went on a recreational tour of the FBI training facility in Quantico while I was an intern in DC. Our guide told us that one of the ways to get hired was to become a specialist in ONE thing. The best in the world. He was, of course, talking about mastery. There are a lot of secondary sources for Anders Ericsson's work, but you can get it straight for the horse's mouth (it was co-written) here: https://www.amazon.com/Peak-Secrets-New ... 011H56MKS/

It's honestly fairly dry, although it gives you a very direct view of what he's done during his academic career focusing on people who attain mastery.

GRIT
https://www.ted.com/talks/angela_lee_du ... rseverance

Grit far outperformed Peak, sales-wise, although Angela's concept of grit isn't more compelling that of mastery. I think that the writing style is better, though. Like Meg Jay's talk, Angela's is better than reading the book, except for the memoir-like parts (my favorite bits) and the section at the end about raising children who can pick themselves up and keep going after encountering failure.

FAILURE
Being intelligent isn't a guarantee that you'll lead a happy, healthy, and prosperous life. Malcolm Gladwell makes the point that many of the high IQ children studied by Terman went on to become mediocre adults despite their above-average intelligence.

Having grown up with so many people far more intelligent than I am, I can see first-hand what happens when they encounter difficulty of any kind. If you cruise through school because it's so easy, experiencing failure for the first time hurts. JK Rowling's speech about the value of failure is really great (text here: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... ng-speech/).

I'm definitely guilty to some degree of expecting myself to succeed. But I like to think that I can dust myself off and keep moving after I fall on my face. I don't know if that's something that I got from sports (and not being particularly good at most of them) or being relatively bad at math (I'm not actually objectively bad at math. I was just surrounded by people who took Calculus in sixth grade). By not having the internal narrative that I was always going to be the best or the smartest, I think I was able to fail and stand back up a little more gracefully.

TOO MUCH GRIT
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amymorin/2 ... d0d7c18311
Even when they’re fighting a losing battle, grittier individuals refuse to give up. Sometimes, that steadfastness can be detrimental.

Researchers found that grittier individuals weren’t willing to throw in the towel. Even when offered financial incentives to quit, they refused. Instead, they opted to keep going, despite inevitable failure.

There are many times where a stubborn refusal to admit defeat could be harmful.
I met someone in New Zealand who would never give up, no matter how much time or effort it took. It had served her well in some areas of her life, but it took up so much of her daily life. She could not stop until she'd "won", even if that victory was Pyrrhic. She seemed to lack the ability to ever let anything go, no matter how small. If she wanted the curtains in the living room to be blue, she'd NEVER stop insisting on blue curtains until they were there. And if they were the wrong (to her) shade of blue, she'd still keep going. She didn't seem to have the capacity to stop herself.

Persistence and perseverance are good things. Most of us could do with more of them. But you can take things too far.

THE DIP
Seth Godin talks about recognizing when you're in the dip or in a cul-de-sac. https://www.amazon.com/Dip-Little-Book- ... 000QCSA54/

There's a point where it's necessary to quit. I often think about my old job (documented at the beginning of this journal). There were so many parts of it that I really liked. I had an extraordinary sense of purpose (a la Daniel Pink) there.

But it was the right time for me to go or perhaps a little past time for me to leave. Assessing when it's right to leave something is a skill on which I'm still working.

cimorene12
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Tue May 08, 2018 2:59 pm

I feel like there's nonstop drama in the author world. If it's not X, it's Y. All the drama is just a distraction from writing and selling books.

I saw this meme recently:
Image
Dating is really challenging. I know that a lot of male ERErs have trouble finding ladies who are even MMM-level frugal, but I don't really have a problem going the opposite direction. While I was outside the country, someone shoved a guy at me and told me that he made $20k off of each house sale. I was not exactly thrilled and also kind of grossed out. I like money, don't get me wrong, but beyond having enough money to survive on, I am uninterested in how much the people around me make or spend (unless they are authors and in that case I am rabidly interested in every aspect of their careers and mostly their marketing and to some extent how they hook their readers, but the interest is professional and not romantic).

Just watching other girls dating is kind of awful. There are so many terrible relationships (whether you are dating males or females or both). Tucker Max built a brand on his interactions with women and how absurd they can be. Looking at the backstage of a couple dozen to a few hundred of girls and what they go through when they date, it's hard to see why the ups and downs of a relationship are worth the trouble.
The Craigslist Penis Effect describes situations where everyone else is so horrible that, by being even half-decent, you can dominate everyone else and win.
It's not the first time that I've mentioned the concept from Ramit Sethi: https://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/b ... is-effect/

This video is a parody of what it's like to try to date online if you're female. A very tiny percentage of ladies want unsolicited pictures of genitals. The overwhelming majority of women do not want to see unsolicited pictures of genitals. The supply far exceeds the demand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTl9EXA4kIA

I don't get lonely the way that many other people do. I prefer to be alone most of the time. I've heard from other introverts that you find your person when you realize that spending time with them doesn't drain you at all and that you could spend forever with them. I've never had a romantic relationship where that was the case. I need to be totally alone for a few hours a day at least.

For some reason, reader groups/book club Facebook groups are full of real-life drama, often having to do with their husbands. And even the people who were so in love in their twenties that they knew in their heart of hearts they'd be with their husbands forever end up getting divorced because people change. People fall out of love. People want different things.

ffj
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by ffj » Tue May 08, 2018 9:21 pm

Just curious, but don't people still get together and do different activities in mixed groups anymore other than bars, etc? Back in the old days :) if you wanted to be in proximity of the opposite sex you had better develop some interests in different activities or even go to church. That way you could casually be in the company of potential dates and everybody had a chance to put themselves out there without pressure. And it gave you the chance to know people before you approached them.

I've never on-lined dated (married before it even came into its own) but it seems kind of distant.

cimorene12
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Wed May 09, 2018 12:17 pm

You have an excellent point, ffj. Hanging out with people who have similar interests is still a good way to meet potential dates without pressure. Volunteering for example is fantastic for meeting people you otherwise wouldn't. I meet random people at church, beach, and the gym, but there aren't that many people my age around.

cimorene12
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:13 pm

Stealth Wealth
Kind of thinking about: https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-ri ... iety-rage/

I suppose other ERErs run into this issue, that people think you're genuinely poor. It's my own fault for joking that I'm poor, and there's a lot to unpack there because I grew up in a place which skewed my ideas of what "poor" and "rich" are. Rich = over $X million in investable assets while poor = anything less than that. "What about the middle class?" you say. Middle class = poor. As of 2014, the median income was around $35,000 per year.
https://www.salon.com/2014/12/21/why_so ... s_partner/

The Millionaire Next Door is a classic FI book, although a bit dry for my taste. I do like flipping through it, though, because it shows how ordinary people save over time while living normal lives (instead of lives full of lentil soup ROFL that still cracks me up).

Almost nobody understands what it means to be a full-time author unless you are one. I think it's kind of a first-world problem. I was re-reading akratic's journal where he said this:
akratic wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:15 am
I also believe becoming FI has made it increasingly difficult to relate to the average person.

As an example, my wife and I sometimes attend a New Parents Group, where kids aged 0-12 months play in a circle while parents talk about the highs and lows of the past week. A typical mom might rant about how her husband is working 70 hours a week to make money for the family, but the apartment is still too small for the three of them, and neither the exhausted mom who has been with a newborn all day nor the exhausted dad who has been working all day has the strength to make it through another sleepless night of crying from their daughter. Meanwhile here's my wife and I *both* attending an optional activity from 1pm - 2:30pm on a weekday. One or both of us have been to this weekly group about 12 times now, and while there are some stay at home dads, not once has both parents of another kid shown up together.

Although my family and close friends know that I'm financially independent, I rarely evangelize or get into it with strangers. Strangers and acquaintances (like at the New Parents Group) sometimes pry, however, and in doing so seem to just about bend over backwards to assume the worst. I can almost see the gears spinning in their head while they conclude that I have some hidden trust fund or income stream from my parents or the government, or that my wife is supporting me, or just about any explanation other than that I earned my freedom myself. I can see the story they are spinning to themselves through the questions they ask, but they almost never come right out with it, and I find these exchanges exhausting.

My freedom seems almost impossible to accept for others
I'm not fully FI but obviously I have control over my working hours. It means that I have the time and freedom to do some things that normal 9-to-5 people put off or can't do. It also means that I'll stay up until 3 AM working out a particularly thorny problem although TBH I did not have the healthiest working hours when I had a corporate job and some people regularly pulled all-nighters at work.

I've had to field weird questions and been exposed to weird assumptions. A lot of people ask me if I've ever published a book right after I tell them that I'm a full-time author. I have a lot of books out, and honestly the exact number eludes me because writing books is a hamster wheel where as soon as you've finished a book, you're right back to the start and writing yet another one. I remember back when I was starting this journal when I hadn't even finished one novel. It feels like a long time ago, but it has only been 4 years.

I waited until I was earning a full-time income before I went full throttle. A bunch of people seriously do not understand that. It's as if I'm an 18-year-old kid who has announced to his/her family that he/she will become an internationally traveling painter and the family members roll their eyes at one another and ask, "And with what money?" As if painters never make any money and the 18-year-old kid is too young and broke to travel solo and doesn't even have a passport. A very large number of people are extremely condescending when you tell them you are a full-time author.

Someone asked me if I wrote every day, and I wondered if the same people who walk up to a plumber and ask them, "Do you plumb every day?" Maybe plumbers don't go out to job sites every day, but it's unlikely that the same question would be posed to another person in a different profession. Do people walk up to accountants and ask them if they work with numbers every day? Is it because being an author is a creative profession? If someone said, "I'm a professional, full-time sketch artist," would they be asked, "Do you sketch every day?"

Honestly people who are full-time musicians, painters, or sculptors seem to understand my position better than the average person can. Because they make their living off of art, they know what it's like. There are other creative professions, of course, but those categories include the professional artists to whom I've spoken after becoming one.
According to writer Joseph Epstein, “81 percent of Americans feel that they have a book in them — and should write it.”
https://publishingperspectives.com/2011 ... ish-books/

If people have stories to tell, I'm not here to stop them. I've been approached by random strangers who want me to write screenplays, which I don't even do. A very large number of people want to write a book, and that's awesome. But writing the book of your heart or your memoirs would not be the same as writing for a living for the VAST majority of authors. There are notable exceptions but it's survivorship bias, because most memoirs and books of the heart sink into quiet obscurity. When you write your memoirs, they are often for you (and your family and friends) and not to plant yourself at the #1 NYT nonfiction hardcovers slot for all time.

I don't write masterpieces. I don't spend decades agonizing over a 20k novella. I am cooking par-boiled pasta, slapping sauce on it, throwing it on a plate, and going to the next dish. That's not to say that I'm not proud of my work at all because writing is a highly individual thing. Of course my books have my voice and the sauce reflects how I think sauce should be. It's kind of like how some Starbucks baristas will make little heart patterns in the foam. Will the heart pattern in commoditized sugary burnt coffee matter? Not really. But it made the barista happy to do, and that's why it's there. The heart patterns don't fundamentally change the experience or the taste. Starbucks baristas get ongoing training, and I'm always working on becoming better. But at the end of the day, it's still just (coffee or) pasta with sauce.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by black_son_of_gray » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:01 am

Funny you should post this, as I just today read the following from Margaret Atwood's Negotiating with the Dead: A Writer on Writing:
As for writing, most people secretly believe they themselves have a book in them, which they would write if they could only find the time. And there's some truth to this notion. A lot of people do have a book in them - that is, they have had an experience that other people might want to read about. But this is not the same as "being a writer".

Or, to put it in a more sinister way: everyone can dig a hole in a cemetery, but not everyone is a grave-digger. The latter takes a good deal more stamina and persistence.
She also mentions that, unlike many of the other arts which require some sense of specialization (e.g. a sculptor has clay or stone and tools, an opera singer has a refined voice and pitch, etc.), the writer's medium of expression - words - is accessible to essentially everyone. So it seems like some of the reverence that is afforded to gifted artists in other media isn't granted to authors, even though the craft and lifestyle are probably very similar. I wonder if you said that you were a full time calligrapher if that would shut down the "oh, do you write every day?" question. You would still literally be a writer, just a more specialized variant.

jennypenny
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by jennypenny » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:10 am

I don't think most people put writers into the starving artist category. Most other types of artists -- musicians, painters, etc -- get a weird, instinctual sympathy from people when they say what they do. Writers seem to evoke a combination of skepticism and derision. Maybe, as you said, it's because everyone can write to some extent so assume they could be a successful writer, too, if they tried. Both writers and chefs seem to suffer from this.

I think there's also a difference between writing as craft and writing as art. There's no shame in pursuing writing or another artistic endeavor as a craft. Think of all the composers who've written exquisitely appropriate and successful music for movies, advertisements, video games, etc ... their work is unappreciated and people assume their musical talents don't measure up to someone like Katy Perry. :roll:

I'm glad I can say I'm an editor when people ask. Editing is boring so no one really wants any details but it gives me an excuse for working on the laptop all day.

cimorene12
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:04 am

black_son_of_gray wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:01 am
She also mentions that, unlike many of the other arts which require some sense of specialization (e.g. a sculptor has clay or stone and tools, an opera singer has a refined voice and pitch, etc.), the writer's medium of expression - words - is accessible to essentially everyone. So it seems like some of the reverence that is afforded to gifted artists in other media isn't granted to authors, even though the craft and lifestyle are probably very similar. I wonder if you said that you were a full time calligrapher if that would shut down the "oh, do you write every day?" question. You would still literally be a writer, just a more specialized variant.
You make a good point about telling people I'm a calligrapher. That would be really fun, actually. I will say that I went to school where the second largest music school in the world was, and vocalists did not get a ton of respect. I ate lunch with one of the voice PhDs and a mutual friend once, and the mutual friend asked really rude questions about why you'd need to train in voice or what a PhD in voice performance even involved. I'm not an excellent singer, merely a barely adequate one, but I've done it for a long time (not as long as piano). The PhD candidate and I looked at each other and tried to explain what PhD in voice meant.
jennypenny wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:10 am
I don't think most people put writers into the starving artist category. Most other types of artists -- musicians, painters, etc -- get a weird, instinctual sympathy from people when they say what they do. Writers seem to evoke a combination of skepticism and derision. Maybe, as you said, it's because everyone can write to some extent so assume they could be a successful writer, too, if they tried. Both writers and chefs seem to suffer from this.
I suppose cooking, like writing, is a basic life skill. And I can see where you're coming from. People have told me, "I used to write in high school, but I'm too busy now." As if my livelihood is a mere hobby that they set aside when they grew up and began to wait tables full-time.
jennypenny wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:10 am
I think there's also a difference between writing as craft and writing as art. There's no shame in pursuing writing or another artistic endeavor as a craft. Think of all the composers who've written exquisitely appropriate and successful music for movies, advertisements, video games, etc ... their work is unappreciated and people assume their musical talents don't measure up to someone like Katy Perry. :roll:
Yes, I think that you are right. One of my friends wanted to go into composing movie scores for a living. It makes me laugh that anybody (of course not you) holds up Katy Perry as a standard of musical talent (obviously she's a pop star and she's worked hard for what she has, but I don't think she's extraordinary).

I think maybe it's the distance between a carpenter and a wood sculptor. Some people build furniture from wood. Other people build sculptures from wood. While the basic component is the same, the words used matter, even if the sculpture can be used as a chair or a chair can be used as a sculpture.

CS
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Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:27 am

I'm surprised you don't give Katie Perry more respect - like Taylor Swift, she makes her money telling stories. :P Edit: I am joking with this one. But I do think well-crafted pop songs are under-rated. To me they are more enjoyable than those folks would want to bore you to death with their fancy riffs, odd time signatures, and (my all-time pet peeve) key changes. (Key changes make me want to turn off the radio and never turn it on again, :lol:.)

One of my classes in grad school was with the composing Ph.D. students in the music department (It was "Music in Science Fiction" - I got grad credit for that!!). Those students were so talented - one especially that I regret to this day not getting her name. I'd hope your friend made it doing movie music. There certainly are enough up and coming filmmakers these days that need music.

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