cimorene12's journal: change or die

Where are you and where are you going?
cimorene12
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:57 am

Thank you, Noedig. :)

Haha, yeah, lots of moving parts to be sure.

cimorene12
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Joe Cohen is offering $10k for someone to set him up with a girlfriend he'll stay with for 4+
months: https://selfhacked.com/blog/10000-rewar ... irlfriend/

There's a $2k second degree referral bonus as well. It's such an INTJ thing to do, to lay down a list of things he wants in a very orderly fashion.

It reminded me of Ramit Sethi, who I think did a deep study of dating and attraction at some point.
A friend of mine had a crush on one of my friends, a big-name, top-tier guy. She was mystified that he didn’t seem to be into her, and she asked for my advice. I don’t usually give relationship advice (because people are weirdos and start hating you when you don’t tell them they’re the greatest), but she was persistent.

I said one thing: “What kind of woman does a man like him want?”

She responded with generic BS: “Confident, smart, blah blah.”

I said, “Ok, just stop. This dude is a high-caliber man. He is SWIMMING in women. Of course he wants that — but that’s just the price of admission. What else?”

She was stumped — and admitted she’d never really thought of what HE would want — because in her mind, for her entire life, she’d been the prize that men pursued.

It turned out there were a few things she COULD work on. She recognized that to attract a top-tier partner, she had to be at the top of your game.

(By the way, this is just as true for guys. It’s not enough to just coast by — improving yourself means becoming more interesting, fit, engaging, and entertaining. When you become the life of the party, women will be attracted to you, instead of simply having to chase after whatever you can get. Harsh truths.

I know this first-hand. Over the last 10 years, I systematically improved myself mentally, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. When my friends and I used to walk up and introduce ourselves to girls, they would walk away in the MIDDLE OF OUR INTRODUCTION. That doesn’t happen any more.

Back then, I had crippling beliefs. For example, I would always tell jokes with friends, and girls would laugh, but they would laugh like this: “Oh ha ha…he’s so funny…some girl is really gonna like him one day” (Classic Nice Guy Syndrome). Overcoming them literally took YEARS, so I know why it’s so challenging to hear someone say you should work on yourself.)
I think about the price of admission bit quite frequently. "Oh, I want him to be tall, dark, and handsome." And maybe that's a woman's price of admission, but a guy can be tall, dark, and handsome and not click. Chemistry is kind of a nonsense word, but one of my social psychology professors based his entire career on human attraction and relationships, and it really is there. There are a lot of things that you can do to boost your allure to the opposite sex. If I'd been naming Tucker's book, I would've called it Peacock and done it as a Neil Strauss-ish investigative journalism piece.

I used to talk about The Mating Grounds podcast a lot, when it was ongoing. It's still something that I dive back into occasionally, despite not buying the book, Mate. They relaunched it with a new cover but it has sold nowhere near as many copies as Tucker's previous books. It's so much more serious and it's a self-help book, whereas Tucker's previous books are about getting drunk and making bad decisions. It's way easier to convince people to laugh than it is to ask them to change their lifestyle.

Bringing it back to Joe Cohen, he said this:
Six months ago, I felt like my businesses stabilized and were successful enough that I could then settle down and be comfortable.

Now, at the age of 30 (born 03/1987), my main goal in life has turned to finding a long-term companion. I don’t think we’re designed to live life alone.

I had assumed that if I’m a kind and easy-going person with little mental baggage, and was financially successful, it shouldn’t be too hard to date someone that I’d be interested in, given that I’m not bad looking. However, reality smacked me in the face
What I thought about was whether that part was the price of admission. Sure, women appreciate kind and easy-going men with little mental baggage who are financially stable, but that's not exactly alluring. It's just the price of admission (well, for some. For other woman, they'll accept cruel and controlling guys with truckloads of baggage who aren't financially stable, but we'll talk about that later).

So, faced with the quandary of finding a worthy girlfriend, what did Joe do?
Leaving no stone unturned, I went on every dating platform out there and literally went through every match within a 30-mile radius. The apps started saying “there is no one left in your area.”

Thinking I might be doing something wrong, I even paid 2 different girls to do the online and app dating for me. No luck.

I approached women on the street. I tried out bars and venues, activities, meetups and other events. No luck.

I got a whole new wardrobe, started working out, bought a new Benz, bought furniture and gadgets to make my room look cool, became more extroverted, got lasik, and more. I ended up attracting the wrong types of women that I wasn’t interested in anyway.
The wardrobe matters, as long as someone who knew what she or he was doing bought it, working out is fine, and the ambiguous "more" could also be fine. He bought a new Benz, bought furniture and gadgets, "became more extroverted," and bought Lasik surgery. And then he realized that he'd attracted the wrong types of women.

You bought a Benz, furniture, gadgets, and Lasik and you're surprised that you attracted women interested in material things?

(Trying to be fair, in Southern California it DOES matter what kind of car you drive. But to decide that in order to get a girlfriend who'll last for a few months, you must buy a new Benz is a strange thing, at least to me.)

http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/05/1 ... r-company/
I went out with this guy who was married for sixteen months, and his wife is getting about three million dollars in the settlement. Of course he is very upset about the whole thing. But mostly because he thinks she’s crazy.

My alarms go off immediately. I think he might be crazy. Because, as my divorce lawyer says, “A ten never marries a one.” Which is to say that you get what you are.

I ask my date why he’s so upset that she’s getting three million. Because, after all, he earned way more than that while he was with her. (Yes, true.)

He says that she is a raving alcoholic and he didn’t know that when he married her.

Then he orders his second Jack and Ginger.

I have had so few drinks in my life that I don’t even know what Jack and Ginger is.

But here’s what happens: We go out on one date, and I drink. It only takes me about a half a glass of wine to be way more easy-going and flirty than I could ever manage if I were sober. And he asks me out again.

On the next date, he has four beers and I don’t drink, and it is obvious to me that things are not going well.

And it is also obvious to me that he will marry another alcoholic. He likes that in a girl.

But he still complains that he can’t believe he married someone who is so unstable. I can’t believe he doesn’t see what marrying that person says about him. I do not tell him that people who have four drinks on every date marry alcoholics. I do tell him, “A ten does not marry a one.”

The wisdom falls on dead ears.
Going back a little:
cimorene12 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:35 pm
“There were a lot of men to date with disposable income who wanted to take women out. It’s just, it was so boring,” she said. “My dating life went from dating artists and writers and going on cheap but exciting dates, to men who thought the ability to buy someone an expensive meal made them interesting.”
That last bit is the essence of the whole article. There are men who 'make it' and they take women out on dates. And they think that simply the ability to pay for dinner makes them worthwhile.

It doesn't.

Pursuing or being FI doesn't preclude dating women at all. If you cook Italian wedding soup (extremely easy) and bring it out to the park for a first date, that's awesome. Bonus points if you bake something with chocolate in it for dessert. That girl, if you're not absolutely terrible at social interaction, will probably go on a second date with you.

You can afford to take a different girl to El Molino every night and still never be successful with women. There are billionaires who are terrible with women. A lot of guys seem to have this script in their heads: IF I have money THEN I can be successful with women ELSE I won't be able to date anybody. And then they find out that earning a decent amount of money (I consider $80k pretty solidly middle class) isn't enough to be successful with women. Tucker talks about the times when he was living on Ramen and he was dating lots of women who would bring him food, because he was so generous with his time and connections and made them laugh.

Also from Material Proof:
Like you wouldn’t believe how many guys I know who are fuck ass wealthy. I mean like, they have their own planes and shit right? And they own buildings and they are billionaires. I know a couple of billionaires actually. I mean, I know quite a few but I know a few billionaires who are terrible with women and basically don’t get girls or the type of women they get are really awful gold diggers and they hate it. Or even if they get pretty decent women in terms of the scale of gold diggers, those guys feel super inadequate and don’t like it because they know those women are with them because they have money and no other reason. That they don’t give a fuck about them at all. They only care about their money.
I've been watching behind the scenes as a lot of women in their twenties and thirties try to date. I don't want to get too specific about it, but the gaffes are just astonishing. I'm not saying that women are easy to date (I know they aren't), but there are very strange things that happen. Example: https://www.facebook.com/all4/videos/1174438319357519/

It would be really easy to do a Tucker Max style put down of this guy and make fun of him. I don't want to do that. I just think that his lack of self-awareness is mind-boggling. He's so aggressive and confident in the video and doesn't seem to be getting the nonverbal signals from the woman that she's very uncomfortable. I wonder how many guys pay, not to become pickup artists, but to become date material. For all we know, that dude could be kind, easy-going, and financially stable with little baggage as well. He's not a bad guy and is objectively physically attractive. There is someone for everyone, and maybe he'll find a woman who really likes how aggressive he is (what I sometimes see referred to by men as being "alpha" and by women as being a creeper).

Meanwhile, there are very sweet boys who'll write odes to your beauty all day but go on twenty dates and never lean down for a kiss. And on the aggressive side of the spectrum, there'll be guys who show up for first dates and try 9+ times to kiss the girl when she responds every time with "I don't want to kiss you" while physically blocking the kiss. The Hitch 90% of the distance kiss is totally cool. Once. Not nine times in one night if every previous attempt was verbally and physically pushed away. Learning how to interact with the opposite gender (this applies to men and women) is a skill on which you have to work.

By offering $10k (+$2k possibly), Joe Cohen is bypassing the skill of figuring out how to attract and hold onto women by just throwing money at the problem.

Jacob talks about skill vs. money in depth in many places, but there's the hilarious blog post about saving money by thinking which I'm going to quote here.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/man-s ... nking.html
You know, I used to buy my breakfast everyday, $5.99 for an egg and a muffin, and it was costing me tons of money, but then I started thinking. When you think about it, frying an egg is really not that hard. So now I just do that and I’m saving more than $2000 each year”, Jane told your intrepid reporter.
Joe is clearly willing to make changes to increase his attractiveness, but he's not doing it in a way that will increase his skill. He's treating it like Tucker Max treats recruiting for his business (I'll give you $1k if I end up hiring someone you forward this email to). I've been told that Joe's website of things he wants is normal in certain groups, but definitely not in mine.

It's gone viral enough that I feel sure he'll get several first dates out of it, and maybe he'll even find a girl in SoCal willing to date him for 4+ months. It's not that his actions aren't replicable, because they are. But it's so weird to me that he'll pay for what Tucker was able to obtain with jokes and quality time when Tucker was barely able to afford Ramen. You can follow ERE's philosophy/ideas and eat lentil soup (this is a joke, if that's not apparent) and forgo spending $10k on finding a girlfriend if you just figure out how to be attractive to women. That might sound like a big task, but it's literally written down on The Mating Grounds Podcast and in their book. There are concrete action steps. But there's a big gap between knowing and doing. You can set goals, but executing them is another matter. I wish Joe Cohen the best, although I think there's a cheaper and arguably easier way to go about things.

CS
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm

Hi Cimorene,

Joe Cohen's apparent lack of self awareness is mind boggling. Can I vent a bit about this?
From this.
cimorene12 wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:22 pm
Six months ago, I felt like my businesses stabilized and were successful enough that I could then settle down and be comfortable.

Now, at the age of 30 (born 03/1987), my main goal in life has turned to finding a long-term companion. I don’t think we’re designed to live life alone.

I had assumed that if I’m a kind and easy-going person with little mental baggage, and was financially successful, it shouldn’t be too hard to date someone that I’d be interested in, given that I’m not bad looking. However, reality smacked me in the face
This guy is not laid back and easy going *at all*. He has a checklist a mile long - and he is looking for some generic peg for his current need. First off, ick. I can't imagine that is going to be all that attractive to women! Who wants to be just another tool in his life box?

Second, he's in South Cal. There are way more men than women there. Way more. And those men have loads of money. So, he is barely scratching in at the minimum price of admission. Honestly, he'd have better luck trying in the mid-west, or even New York, if that's the level he wants to be at and win.

Third, and this ties in the with the first point, he is rigid. He has a plan, and it's going to go in his order. Again, not going to work that well in this day and age, especially as he gets older and meets older woman with the same sort of thinking.

He probably would have been better off sticking with someone he cared about from his younger days, poor or not, than trying to approach it this way.

On the other hand, it might be an easy way to make 10k if you know someone. :D
Last edited by CS on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Stahlmann
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by Stahlmann » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:56 pm

At first:
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
This guy is not laid back and easy going *at all*. He has a checklist a mile long - and he is looking for some generic peg for his current need. First off, ick. I can't imagine that is going to be all that attractive to women! Who wants to be just another tool in his life box?

But then:
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
Second, he's in South Cal. There are way more men than women there. Way more. And those men have loads of money. So, he is barely scratching in at the minimum price of admission. Honestly, he'd have better luck trying in the mid-west, or even New York, if that's the level he wants to be at and win.
:D

EDIT: Ok, I forgot about forum's "die Ordnung"... To provide some value... I must say I've seen many ladies who would use long lists with requirements, waaaaay more insane (as with height fetish - only small percentage of men is taller than X). I'd say that John isn't demanding at all.

CS
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:22 pm

@stahlmann

And yet, he has no mate and wants one. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

My first point, I guess, also is along the lines that he is not really taking the time to find out what it takes to make a woman love him. Wooing a woman is an art, and it revolves mostly about making her feel special (oh so important). Filling a job opening is not the same as 'special'. Buying more stuff on his side, sure, minimum price of admission. That is not going to be enough to get what he wants. He needs to woo.

In the midwest, there is a shortage of men, and frankly, it has led a lot of them to be turds because they can get away with it and still have female companionship. This guy does not have that luxury.

FWIW, I'm not saying there aren't demanding women out there. I know there are. But this guy is going to have a lot better luck if he at least knows himself. I think that is where the self-improvement stuff comes in. You can't fix what you don't even see.

cimorene12
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:44 pm

CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
This guy is not laid back and easy going *at all*. He has a checklist a mile long - and he is looking for some generic peg for his current need. First off, ick. I can't imagine that is going to be all that attractive to women!
It's not. You're dead on.
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
Second, he's in South Cal. There are way more men than women there. Way more. And those men have loads of money. So, he is barely scratching in at the minimum price of admission. Honestly, he'd have better luck trying in the mid-west, or even New York, if that's the level he wants to be at and win.

Yeah, he's from the East Coast (I think, I didn't read the entire webpage because it's so long). He recognizes that his mating market is suboptimal, so he'd definitely be better off going somewhere that there are far more single women than men.
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:38 pm
Third, and this ties in the with the first point, he is rigid. He has a plan, and it's going to go in his order. Again, not going to work that well in this day and age, especially as he gets older and meets older woman with the same sort of thinking.

He probably would have been better off sticking with someone he cared about from his younger days, poor or not, than trying to approach it this way.
Right.
Stahlmann wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:56 pm
To provide some value... I must say I've seen many ladies who would use long lists with requirements, waaaaay more insane (as with height fetish - only small percentage of men is taller than X). I'd say that John isn't demanding at all.
There's no contradiction in what CS has said. Joe is looking for a ten while being a six (those are arbitrary numbers). He's looking for a Perfect Woman while not being able to compete at that level, especially in Orange County where the ratio of single men to women means that women can be very picky. That's my point about self-improvement and awareness. None of us are perfect, but at least we can figure out why we're not getting what we want vs. solving it by throwing money at the problem.
CS wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:22 pm
FWIW, I'm not saying there aren't demanding women out there. I know there are. But this guy is going to have a lot better luck if he at least knows himself. I think that is where the self-improvement stuff comes in. You can't fix what you don't even see.
Right. It's not a gender-specific thing to have a list of requirements. I don't think Joe understands why he isn't as attractive as he thinks he is. I feel like he expected lovely ladies to just flock to him when he put out the bat signal, and then he was shocked when what he was offering wasn't very enticing. He says that he left no stone unturned, but that's absolutely not true in an area where single women are scarce and have very high expectations.

CS
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:15 pm

cimorene12 wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:44 pm
I don't think Joe understands why he isn't as attractive as he thinks he is. I feel like he expected lovely ladies to just flock to him when he put out the bat signal , and then he was shocked when what he was offering wasn't very enticing. He says that he left no stone unturned, but that's absolutely not true in an area where single women are scarce and have very high expectations.
:lol:

Little bit of culture shock, I'm sure. I personally loved the difference between CA and the Midwest. CA men were more overtly friendly, smiled more, made eye contact, etc. I was visible again (women will know what this means), as opposed to nonexistent.

I have a male friend who hates CA for probably the exact same reason but being on the other end of it. Minnesota, on the other hand, is great for him.

CS
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:21 pm

Sorry to post so much on your journal, but I did want to say thank you for sharing so much. Jacob pointed out your journal (and a few others) when I mentioned writing. I ended up binge reading it over a few days. I'm now joined DD thanks to you! Hope the writing is going well.

cimorene12
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:19 am

Haha, yes, when I was in Los Angeles in 2015, I noted how much my stock went up. People acted like I was gorgeous everywhere I went, which felt weird. That was the stuff about Dorothy in the Emerald City that I wrote.

I'm glad that you're on DD! Last month, I hit the USA Today list for the fourth time, which was ok. Don't worry about speaking up in my journal. Do it as much as you like. Obviously I can go on and on about the publishing business, so if you want to PM me questions, I can answer some. I'm not omniscient, though. :)

CS
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by CS » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:50 am

Oh my gosh! Congrats on the USA Today list!! Four times! Wow.

cimorene12
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 am

Re: cimorene12's journal: change or die

Post by cimorene12 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:57 pm

Thank you. :)

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