Too Old To Retire "Young"

Where are you and where are you going?
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Sclass
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by Sclass » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:23 am

EdithKeeler wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:29 am
“because I want to spend time with you and it will be fun.” Which is actually a compliment if you think about it.
You’re dang right it is. Sex is all around us. It’s pretty rare for me to find a friend I’d voluntarily work with for no personal gain and go further to say “it’ll be fun”. A shallow sex experience can be found just about anywhere. I’m just saying that sounds pretty cool EK. You have a friend there. It’s precious. I mean you must be great to be around if he goes out of his way to labor for no personal gain alongside you.

For example I was in the hardware store in my hometown last week and ran into a gal I went to high school with. Alarms went off because people who never left our little burg in LA usually have something wrong with them. We chat a bit about life and she starts telling me how she gave up on boyfriends and now “BOB is her boyfriend”. I’m like ok, who is Bob did he graduate in our class? She says, “Sclass, hello, Battery Operated Boyfriend, I use a vibrator, get it?”

Yeah talk about subtle hints. What I really needed was somebody to come back to my mom’s house with me and hold a flashlight as I changed screw in fuses in the dark. Or read the numbers off my voltmeter as I tested the mains. That would have meant a lot more than standing in for “BOB” for the night. To hell with the orgasm, I need real help!

Fix the house. And spend some time with a real friend who really wants to help you. Isn’t that the true acid test of friendship?

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 pm

@Sclass:

Good friend vs. Shallow sex = False dichotomy.

It's okay for EK to want what she wants.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by EdithKeeler » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:32 pm

So went to the house, and my friend did a ton of work for me. I'm not sure we worked everything out... but he's coming for Thanksgiving, and everything feels pretty good right now. No need to go into the details... but it's all good. I think. For now.

But enough about relationship stuff.... let's talk money. I went to the house intending to get it ready to rent, then while I was there I decided to sell it, but now that I'm home, I'm leaning back toward renting it out.

I've gone through all the pros and cons: potential issues with renters (so far I've been lucky, but I'm realistic enough to know it probably won't last), issues re. repairs--again, lucky so far. Being a long-distance landlord has its downsides, and I don't get over there as much as I should... though I could go more. And, it's always kind of this "thing' hanging over my head. The pros of selling include the fact that right now it's a good market for selling... but it's also a good market for renting. The house is old (circa 1972), and it won't be paid off, unless I accelerate it, for 19 years.

I'd probably net around $70-80K if I sell now and get what I hope to get. On the other hand... if I hang onto it, I've got someone else paying the mortgage for 20 years, and I can sell it along the way as needed.

I think what bothers me most is taking that item off my net worth spreadsheet. I just really hate to see that asset dip. And I really like the idea of this thing sitting out there making me money that I don't have to work for! It appeals to my inherent laziness.

Anyway.... I don't know what I'm going to do. Either way, the work on the house has to get done, so I can kick the can down the road a week or two until all the work is done. But I just really don't know what I'm going to do.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by classical_Liberal » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:51 pm

Just my perspective. You seem to waste a lot of mental energy on this house. At least, a lot of your journal space seems to be spent writing about it. I'm not sure if that is reflective of your day-to-day life though. This is probably the biggest downside I see in holding it, but it's also something that is within the realm of your control.

Currently I rent because I move around so much for work. However, I really wish I had a rental property in my investment portfolio. The leverage is great, the bank shares risk with you (ie if the neighborhood goes to shit and value dives). It would guarantee that I'll never be priced out of the housing market with future inflation (assuming it's a neighborhood I wouldn't mind living in). It's a tangible physical asset with cash flow potential. And let's face it, it's not like there are a lot of of high expected ROI paper assets out there right now, unless you're a great growth or value investor. The only thing holding me back is that is the wrong time in the market cycle to buy housing AND I'd probably be in your predicament above (ie non local owner with worries and not much time to DIY, have to take time off work to set everything up). You're already in, have a trustworthy management company, and are planning to update either way. The hard work is done.

If once these updates are done, you feel you can leave it in the hands of the management company and emotionally let go for a while; I'd keep it.

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:57 pm

classical_Liberal wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:51 pm
Currently I rent because I move around so much for work. However, I really wish I had a rental property in my investment portfolio. The leverage is great, the bank shares risk with you (ie if the neighborhood goes to shit and value dives).
What

classical_Liberal
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by classical_Liberal » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:05 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:57 pm
What
If I'm 70% leveraged on a 100k property and the value tanks to 30k because the neighborhood becomes invested with crack dens, I can walk away. I only lose 30k in nonrecourse states, which I should have specified. They just happen to be they states I would look to buy in.

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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by EdithKeeler » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:09 pm

You seem to waste a lot of mental energy on this house.
Yeah, that's probably a valid observation. I've been obsessing about it lately just because my tenant moved out, etc. But it is in the back of my mind a lot because of uncertainty... plus there's a bit of emotional component about it. It's not just a house I bought to have as a rental, it's "home" in a lot of ways. I think as I get closer and closer to quitting my job, I think more and more about where "home" will be. I don't really have any ties anywhere--I have the small house here in Memphis, but I don't want to stay in Memphis, and this little house hasn't become "home" for me. It's possible that when I retire I'll want to move back to the Metroplex... and I have a place already if that's what I do. We moved a lot when I was kid, so a house represents security to me.

But i will say this--I think for most people a house or property is important and occupies a lot of time and attention. It's a huge asset. There are repairs to be made, do you want to upgrade? Is the neighborhood still OK? Will it be in a few years? Will there be another drop in the market? i'm a homebody at heart, evidenced by the fact that I have two houses! As much as I dream of a more peripatetic life, I like having a home base, at least. And I think that figures into a lot of my thinking and obsessing about it.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:54 am

I have been thinking about this issue a good deal myself lately. Until very recently, purchase of a small house at auction was part of my retirement plan. But my DD27 and her fiance, just bought a house with intent to settle there forever, in the community that I consider to be my home town. So, I am suddenly "off the hook" for provision of Grandma-cottage. DD eagerly took possession of every remaining holiday/sentimental item in my suitcase-attic, as well as everything my mother just down-sized in preparation for move to senior community, and then very sweetly invited me to come over early to actually cook the turkey on Thanksgiving :lol:

My point being that there are emotions and patterns of behavior associated with the feeling of "being at home" or "having a home" or "homelessness" that don't have that much to do with ownership of real estate. Another example would be a female acquaintance of mine who said of her husband, "He is my home." Is your current BF the person you would most like to find yourself stuck with in an airport overnight, trying to make a little temporary home for yourselves?

EdithKeeler
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by EdithKeeler » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:37 am

My point being that there are emotions and patterns of behavior associated with the feeling of "being at home" or "having a home" or "homelessness" that don't have that much to do with ownership of real estate. Another example would be a female acquaintance of mine who said of her husband, "He is my home." Is your current BF the person you would most like to find yourself stuck with in an airport overnight, trying to make a little temporary home for yourselves?
Yeah, I get that... but I like having the actual real estate. I don't really think about DBF when I think about my home--he's always welcome... but it's mine, not "ours."

LIke I said, I moved a lot as a kid, so I like having MY spot. Also, my mom sold houses and bought houses over the years, and NEVER kept/made any money from them, and now almost 20 years into retirement still has a mortgage and a lot of money problems. And the big house (rental) has value, the small one, not a lot.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:10 pm

Gotcha. I think I am heading more towards canvas tent and somebody who is still in good enough shape to carry it.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by EdithKeeler » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:05 pm

Gotcha. I think I am heading more towards canvas tent and somebody who is still in good enough shape to carry it.
I’m more an upscale Winnebago person, myself.... but I think I still need a home base to go to from time to time. (X?DBF is into that too... but says we need a driver so we can sit in the back and play cards while driving. Guess we’ll let the driver sleep in the tent!) 😁

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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by jennypenny » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:27 pm

EK -- If it makes you happy, keep it. It might also be easier to transition into retirement in a home in which you're already comfortable.

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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by EdithKeeler » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:41 pm

I'm keeping the house. At the end of the day, it was the math that convinced me. After running numbers, with expenses (estimated on the high side), my return on my original investment (down payment of $30K), has been roughly 16% a year since it's been rented. If I calculate based on the overall value when I bought the house, it's roughly 3.5%; based on current market value it's 2.5%. If I base it on my estimated equity, it's over 5% a year. Not huge... but not bad. If I sell, I'd most likely just shove the money in a savings account or a money market anyway for a while. So I had to ask myself: would I be happy with the money in a savings account earning 5%? Well, hell yeah. Would I be happy with an investment that's earned 16% a year? Hell yeah. Sure, there's other considerations: it's not as liquid as stocks, but then again, it's probably not quite as volatile, either, and I can borrow against it or sell it later if I have to. So decision made. I will continue to rent it out for now.

In other ruminations....

I had a business lunch this week with several people from my company and some "young guns" from a local agency that we are trying to develop as producers. The guys (yes,all guys. The industry remains VERY male-dominated) range in age from about 25 to 32 or so. It was mostly a meet and greet, so we didn't talk a lot of business, but through the course of the lunch the class differences became really obvious between us company schlubs and the young guns. In our company group, we had a couple people in their early 30s and me and an alter kocker in his 60's. The young guns are all sons of the principals in their company, essentially being groomed to be handed the keys of this VERY, VERY lucrative business. All three guys are nice looking, extremely polite, and very personable. All three of them ran into people they knew at this high end restaurant (the kind of place where business people go, but also catering to the wealthy "ladies who lunch" set). During the course of discussion, it came out that all three were graduates of expensive private high schools in the city, and graduates of the right colleges for local business--in other words, not elite schools, but the kind of schools where local business people often go to make the right connections. (Football schools where people bond over... football). We company schlubs were all products of public schools, frankly better colleges for academics, and I know for a fact that all of us worked through school (the young guns did not). We company people make good money, way better than the majority of people in the country--and yet, these young guns are already making way, way more than we are and are poised to literally make millions. It was just interesting, because in various boards around here we've been talking about class and income inequality, etc. I think a lot about the folks that have a lot less than me, and the opportunities they might not have, but after that lunch this week, I was thinking about the differences in opportunities and stuff that these guys have had compared to me (no, I don't resent it, for many reasons--I'm good with my life), and how much income inequality there is between me (and my fellow company schlubs) and them. I know for a fact that all 4 of us company people were the first in our families to go to college, and we all went to pretty high tier (academic) schools. Just.... interesting.

In other thoughts. I've been looking harder at my spending, and I really have a lot of opportunity to rein it in. I've gone back to my bad habit (never gone, but for a while I was doing better) of eating out too much and buying too many convenience foods. I'm really working on cleaning out my stores, so to speak, and in the last two weeks have spent only about $50 on groceries, which included making 3 dinners at my mom's (though it did NOT include taking her out for dinner after a doctor appointment). It's getting harder and harder for my mom to cook, and sometimes I just don't feel like cooking (which is when the eating out/bringing over take out takes place), and I need to start making more "double up" meals where I make one for us to eat and one for her to have in the freezer for later. I may invest in some small casserole dishes to help with this goal. One issue is that my mom tends to be really picky, and my brother is also picky... and they don't like/hate the same things. I really need to pick their brains and find out stuff they really like/will eat and start prepping better.

Along those lines, with my mom in general I need to start getting things together better. This recent health issue that she's had has been hard on her... but it's also been hard on me. I've used up almost all of my vacation time this year on her stuff, and she's currently having to go to this wound care doctor once a week. Given the doctor's location, her location, my location, and availability of appointments, it's a half day for me to take her, and I have to take a half day of vacation each time. And...I'm almost out of time. I'd tried to apply for FMLA a couple years ago, and her PCP is an idiot and didn't/wouldn't take into account all the specialists she sees for her various ailments. "I'm only treating her for her arthritis," he told me, and wrote on the form that it's 2 days a year. I need to revisit it--my HR/FMLA only wants one form from one doc (PCP makes sense, right??) but this wound care guy seems to have a good understanding of the big picture, so I think I'm going to talk to him when we go next week. I don't care so much about not getting paid for the time I have to take, though I do worry about the work load at work--all this time off has taken a toll on that. A bit. I have a lot of conference calls and meetings, and it's hard to schedule those when I'm out a lot. That's really the only big issue. That and I hate having multiple calls/meetings day after day after day.

And given all that, I think it's becoming clear that my mom is going to need assisted living sooner rather than later. I think she's starting to realize it, too, though she will fight it tooth and nail, I think. We've talked AROUND the issue, and talked about it enough to know that she's made it clear that she doesn't want to go to assisted living, but lately I think it's on her mind, given her recent health stuff. We were watching TV this weekend, and every time an ad for "A Place for Mom" came on, she made a comment that all the places are terrible and dirty, and people's families just stick them in there... Sigh. She's probably right about the ones that she'll have to go to as being terrible, since there's no money and she'll have to go in as a Medicaid patient. Anyway.... one thing at a time. I still need to make an appointment with an atty and get the living will stuff done, etc. I did tell her that with the loss of my vacation time, I may have to arrange other transport to the doctor for her. She's not happy about that (my brother, also, is out of vacation time). I think the next step is probably going to be a caregiver of some sort coming in for a few hours a day. We tried a version of this before and it wasn't great. But we'll get through this.
Last edited by EdithKeeler on Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

George the original one
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by George the original one » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:20 pm

Some notes from my experiences with parents in assisted living:
1) All oldsters will hate the food/service/routine, mostly because they can't control it rather than these things being poorly done.
2) The more private the living conditions, the less happy the residents are. Forced activities are far better for mental health than sticking to the routine of going to a communal meal and then returning to hide in one's living quarters. People need to be where they can see life happening rather than watching it on TV.
3) Sometimes cheaper is better than expensive, but it takes a different sort of person to appreciate that because of our preconceived notions. When touring potential places for my dad, my sister & I both liked a 7th Day Adventist home which was very spartan, yet the residents seemed to be more active than in your typical residence (but it wasn't the place for my dad). I also noticed the communal ward next to where my mom underwent hospice care was very lively with patients engaging each other and a sharp contrast to patients in private (or semi-private) rooms where the patients sit & wait for family/friends to visit.
4) Observe the "invisible" staff at work. Waiters, cleaners, etc. are the ones that will color the life experience of residents far more than the official people. If they show that little bit of extra patience & compassion and aren't hurrying from one task to another, it will upgrade the resident's experience.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:54 pm

The young guns are all sons of the principals in their company, essentially being groomed to be handed the keys of this VERY, VERY lucrative business.
What would prevent you from going out on your own and competing toe to toe with these young guns?
I think it's becoming clear that my mom is going to need assisted living sooner rather than later.
Getting there with my mother too. I am helping her clear out enough clutter that she can at least downsize to senior living apartment. The place she would like to live charges well over $4000/month, and that is only inclusive of most meals and twice weekly cleaning. She would have to pay more for any sort of hands-on care needed that wasn't covered by her medical insurance. It makes you realize that the amount of money you save by, for instance, being able to cook for yourself is nothing compared to the amount of money you are saving simply by being able to shower by yourself.

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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by EdithKeeler » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:08 pm

What would prevent you from going out on your own and competing toe to toe with these young guns?
No desire, for one thing. What I do is completely different. And too old. That’s part of the point, too— their fathers have built a huge book of business, spent a lifetime building relationships with other businesses, and now they are handing the keys to the sons. I’d be starting at home base; they’re 2 steps from sliding into home plate.

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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:51 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:54 pm
It makes you realize that the amount of money you save by, for instance, being able to cook for yourself is nothing compared to the amount of money you are saving simply by being able to shower by yourself.
That is quite insightful. Although some effects of aging are unavoidable, there has to be some correlation between good general health maintenance and extended independence.

Although it may be a somewhat down the road, I'm starting to do the same sort of medium-range thinking regarding my dad. He's been on his own for 5 months now and it seems like he's doing okay (physically he's as robust as one can hope for at age 79). It's a stressful thing to have to think about. A relative has suggested that when I pull the plug and relocate I should consider moving in with him. It would simplify things in that half my mission in life at that stage will be hovering around and looking after him, but I don't know how far into a decline I would have the courage to be a caregiver. Just being around for the last 10ish days of my mom's hospice sapped a huge fraction of my energy. He does have a pretty decent COLA-adjusted pension (basically no savings unfortunately) so there are resources for some amount of in-home assistance, and Medicare does cover some amount of palliative care in-home (probably highly situational), but at some point a residential facility might be necessary.

Although there's an uptick in evidence predicting I'll go quick via heart disease, I haven't conceded that, and so one of my back-burner thought topics is trying to outline a plan for myself so that whomever might be in a position to be making decisions for me could just follow a script and not have to check their own pockets to sift through options.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:23 am

Yeah, the week my father spent dying at home under hospice care is seared into my memory. He always told me "Kill me if they take away my driving license." My mother, OTOH, is the penultimate useless-posh-consumer, so being waited on hand and foot while propped up in bed in some sort of luxurious environment would not phase her. She suggested that my sisters and I might all want to chip in so she can afford the $5000+ month facility, and I replied "You wish. After I finish helping you with this Swedish Death Cleaning, we are going to get you on the waiting list for some place that is well within your quite reasonable pension budget, because you know you will still want to waste money shopping even if you have to do it from bed." I know, seems a bit tough, but she is kind of like a cross between Elizabeth Taylor and Attila the Hun, so that's how I have to handle her. Different from dealing with the same issues with a parent whom you do hold in great affection. Easier in some ways, more difficult in others.

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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by EdithKeeler » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:18 am

Just being around for the last 10ish days of my mom's hospice sapped a huge fraction of my energy. He does have a pretty decent COLA-adjusted pension (basically no savings unfortunately) so there are resources for some amount of in-home assistance, and Medicare does cover some amount of palliative care in-home (probably highly situational), but at some point a residential facility might be necessary.
That’s the key—having resources. My mom saved ZIP for retirement, and I’m sure never imagined a time that where she couldn’t drive, could barely walk through the house, and where she was plagued by multiple health issues, none of which by itself is that serious or particularly life threatening, but when combined create not only a poor quality of life, but which are also very expensive. And to be fair, the landscape of aging and healthcare has change significantly in her lifetime. Thirty or 40 years ago, most people couldn’t have imagined that a tube of cream to treat a wound would cost $485/month.

That’s my biggest concern about my own retirement—that I’ll be in a similar boat as my mom, not because I didn’t save, but because I didn’t save enough and ran out of money. That’s one thing about ERE—it IS entirely doable to quit your job and live on $25k a year (I’m totally NOT Jacob level!!), and it’s probably sustainable up until that time when your body goes to shit and you can’t bike anymore, and you need expensive medicine, etc. At least in the United States. You might get lucky, but it’s very possible that despite all your best efforts to be healthy, you get something like Parkinson’s or leukemia, etc. And in the US, anyway, you’re going to have to pay for things that aren’t covered by Medicare, or even by expensive extra insurance—certain medications, rides to the doctor if you can’t take yourself, someone to help you bathe or clean your house... it’s depressing when I think about it too much, especially since I don’t have kids or even a responsible sibling to lean on.
Yeah, the week my father spent dying at home under hospice care is seared into my memory. He always told me "Kill me if they take away my driving license
My dad was diagnosed with cancer and given about 1 good year to live. He died 27 days after he told me. Among the last things he ever said to me was “I don’t want anyone else to have to wipe my ass.” I think he died 2 days after that, and I’m convinced he willed himself to go.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Too Old To Retire "Young"

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:46 am

Thirty or 40 years ago, most people couldn’t have imagined that a tube of cream to treat a wound would cost $485/month.
True, and I think as individual consumers we have to prepare to make some tough decisions about where to draw the line in the sand. My BF's mother was prescribed a drug that costs $5000/month for one of her conditions. She does have significant financial resources, but she told them to forget it. Meanwhile, there are still children dying every day on this planet due to lack of simple, inexpensive generics to help with respiratory infections and diarrhea.

I spend virtually no money on healthcare even though I do carry decent insurance, and it is my intention to maintain that budgetary resolve, even if that means settling for 2018 level medical care in 2048 or engaging in black-market for morphine. It has been my observation that people mostly carry on as they have previously when it comes to end of life issues, so I predict the same for myself.

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