Too Old To Retire "Young"

[EdithKeeler]

I just wrote in J&G’s journal about all my fears about growing old with no money, based on watching my mom’s struggles. I feel like I’m a little obsessed with that right now... but it’s hard not to be.

On the other hand, I just found out that a friend from high school died this week, apparently of a massive heart attack in his home. Also, an acquaintance from college died a couple weeks ago from breast cancer. 54 and 55 years old.

And I pretty much hate my new job, which has completely taken over my life. I feel like the end of my career is inching closer—I do not want to die at my desk!! But balancing that need for some future security b
versus the feeling that I gotta get out—and soon—man.... it’s tough.

[2Birds1Stone]

Sorry you're facing these internal struggles. It seems like the closer you get to the light at the end of the tunnel, the harder it gets.

Sometimes I let this cloud of negative thoughts take over my brain for days at a time, and it's helpful to identify the cloud and try to proactively do things to get out of the funk. What are you doing to take advantage of life outside of your job right now? Fresh air? Exercise? Even some walks when it's sunny out, or getting out to the park and people watching can help.

[7Wannabe5]

What is your positive plan for your early retirement? I don't hear you taking this into your accounting.

[EdithKeeler]

Sorry you're facing these internal struggles. It seems like the closer you get to the light at the end of the tunnel, the harder it gets.

Sometimes I let this cloud of negative thoughts take over my brain for days at a time, and it's helpful to identify the cloud and try to proactively do things to get out of the funk. What are you doing to take advantage of life outside of your job right now? Fresh air? Exercise? Even some walks when it's sunny out, or getting out to the park and people watching can help.

Yeah, I'm kind of in whiny-pity-party mode at the moment, mostly because i really, really, really need some time off. I took this new job in July and since then over half my staff has left. I'm trying to get work done with temps, and I've made my picks for new hires, but it's moving really slowly above me. I think once the dust settles, it will be fine.... but right now it's super dusty!! I also have travel coming up. It's just busy job, mom situation (which wouldn't be nearly so bad if the facility where she is wasn't about as far away as it could be and still be in essentially the same metro area--it takes me almost an hour to get over there, and it's just a LOT right now). The plus side is, the turnover is NOT because my staff hates me--apparently the ones that are still here really like me, per my boss, and feel like I'm "supporting and developing them." That actually makes me feel pretty good... I'll be able to do more of that, which is what i like, once we get staffed up again.

I just need a vacation. I had vacation scheduled the first week of August and had to cancel, and also had a week set in October, which I also had to cancel. Taking some extra time at Labor Day, which I'm embarrassed that I'm that excited about it.

I'm just whining, I guess. And I really have little to whine about--on paper life is great: I've got a good job that pays well and doesn't endanger my life, my mom is actually getting better, though whether she'll get to come home is still up in the air, but I'm starting to think she will, I've got money in the bank... It's all good. I just really need a week at the beach with some mojitos.

What is your positive plan for your early retirement? I don't hear you taking this into your accounting.

Oh, wow. I have a list! I literally have three novel outlines that I peck away at in my (precious little) free time; i really look forward to getting those going once I quit. I'm looking forward to lots of gardening and probably doing the Master Gardener class at the Botanic Gardens. My guitar is sitting in the closet begging to be played (i haven't touched it in years and was never good--need to take some lessons and practice), not to mention about a million art projects I want to start/finish, and a Kindle full of books to be read..... I keep looking at small farms on the Virginia coast and fantasizing. Near enough to Richmond and Williamsburg and Norfolk for shots of culture when it need it, a place for dogs and gardens and projects when I want to hang out alone or with friends. And affordable. And near water.

[7Wannabe5]

Gotcha. I would be so out of there.

[EdithKeeler]

Gotcha. I would be so out of there.

I will be, when I'm safe from being a full-time care-giver.

[7Wannabe5]

Yeah, it's a tough problem, but I have the solution for you. What you have to do is get married.

[EdithKeeler]

Yeah, it's a tough problem, but I have the solution for you. What you have to do is get married.

HA! That's a whole 'nother passel of trouble. I have a couple of friends I talk to regularly who tell me their marital woes; at least twice a week I think or say out loud "thank God I'm not married!" It's not the big stuff like limp Johnsons and blue pills, but it's little stuff like tedious discussions about plates left in sinks or whose turn it is to clean the bathroom. No thanks! If I let anyone into my life it'd be a gay guy platonic roommate. Best relationship I EVER had!

[7Wannabe5]

True. But, it would serve as balance/excuse towards other demands. I just came up with this theory, because I was almost able to not let my sister talk me into schlepping my mother around to a day full of medical appointments in her stead with 1, 2 punch of not owning a car and live-in BF sick himself. Unfortunately, the prospect of dealing with my mother combined with my sister's competing work obligation was enough to cause her to be willing to drive 4 hours out of her way in a rainstorm to pick me up. Fail. I may be forced to pretend like I got a full-time data science job in another state, but I can't do that until after my daughter's wedding.

[EdithKeeler]

So, we're inching closer to the end of the year, and my major financial things have now been resolved. I've bought my new house, sold my little house, and am contemplating selling my rent house in Texas; still haven't made up my mind on that. I've paid off the debt that I accumulated last year doing renovations on the rental house and some other things, and the balance sheets are looking pretty decent.

One good thing about being older, and having accumulated a little bit when I was younger is that it's starting to bear fruit--my money is starting to make some money. Which is good in that I can sort of see the future when I can walk away from paid employment... but I confess, I feel a little greedy, too, because I find myself wanting to keep building. Which is OK, for right now, since I kind of have to work at the moment.

But I'm starting to line things up. A bit, anyway. I found out today what our COBRA premium is on our health insurance, just in case. It's not as much as I thought it was, which is good. I'm making a list of those things I want to make sure are done before I pull the rip cord--I need to pay off the house, do certain repairs around the house, probably replace my car, make sure I get more info on my health insurance to ensure I'm getting the best deal, take care of some medical type things--considering Lasik surgery--etc. I've FIRE-calced things every which way from Sunday, and I'm starting to feel comfortable about things. I do have some areas I need to tighten up on--I've been a little bit spendy lately, and I need to watch that. Not that being spendy is necessarily bad... but it's not a habit that will serve me well when I quit. I think I've been a little bit optimistic about what I really spend, so I'm re-skewing my planning toward the higher side, just in case. This month I bought a new deluxe mattress for my bedroom, and a futon frame and mattress for the office/third bedroom. And did AC repairs at my house as well as my rental house. Cha-ching.

One thing I haven't done, that I want to do, is look more at setting up other cash flows. I really thought I'd hang on to my rental house long term, but I'm thinking now that I won't, though I may keep it another couple of years. Or not. The think about real estate is that yes, it's nice to sit back and having the rents roll in... but the maintenance can get you. And if you don't get the right tenant.... I had the perfect tenant the first 6 years and I got really spoiled. The current one is not terrible... but he's cost me a good bit of money in the form of repeated calls for service items like "the drain doesn't drain fast enough." Literally 4 trips by the plumber, who told him all 4 times there was nothing wrong. I bear the cost of that, though. And he caused some minor damage that I had to pay for, and he's supposed to pay for it. He hasn't, though, and per the terms of the lease, I can evict him. But it'll cost me between $1000 and $1500 to evict him, and that's silly to recover $300 when there are no other issues. And there are turnover costs to getting a new tenant. So yeah, it's great to have someone else paying the mortgage, and the tax benefits are pretty nice....but I'm going to have to weigh those against the pain in the ass things. I don't really have any brilliant ideas for other cash flows though.

On the job front, I'm really not too happy at the moment. The current frenzy is bringing back bad, bad memories of my time 7 years ago. I worked a full day today, then came home and worked another 3 and a half hours... and I'm still woefully behind. I'm on the verge of hiring 4 people, and once they get on-boarded and trained it'll get better (oh, Jesus, it had better!!) but although that light is at the end of the tunnel, it's really far away and very dim. It's hard to give my staff pep talks when I'm not feeling it myself.

And I'm really missing out on the social aspect of work. I'm remote from all my staff, and our local office has dwindled down to almost nothing, and I just feel.... lonely and disconnected. And there are some new relationships in this job I'm not so nuts about either. It'll work out, or it won't, but that's the good thing about having money in the bank--you have options.

I hate to be all about money, but in a lot of ways, it is all about money right now. My net worth has increased by $102,000 this year, which seems pretty impressive--to me, anyway.

I was thinking the other day that ERE, or even just retiring early, is probably harder for certain people than for others. Much of my family was in so many ways all about WORK. Work defined my dad, and I think I've written before that it's probably not a coincidence that I work in the same field as he did. My dad was kind of a salaryman, trudging to work every day to a job he didn't love, but he was OK at, because that Is What You're Supposed To Do. He made a solid middle class living, but was never rich, and there wasn't a ton of money for extras. My mom's parents were a bit lower on the socio-economic scale--my grandfather had an 8th grade education (but read the paper cover to cover every day of his life!), and worked manual labor on oil rigs until he retired early due to an injury when he became a full-time small farmer. My grandmother was the "lunch lady" at school, and held down the farm while my grandpa was away working. Their lives were all about work, and duty, and taking care as best they could of their family. This is pretty much the path I've taken. I've been fortunate in that I made more money than my grandparents,and probably about even with my dad (but with no kids to take care of so I net more). But despite having in most ways many fewer obligations than my dad, I've done that trudge to work thing. It wasn't until later in life--maybe too late--that it occurred to me that there was another way to go.

I think--maybe--a lot of it is a middle class thing. Because work is not only What You Do, but it's also Who You Are. I think once my dad retired--at age 60--he just re-defined himself from being an insurance man to being a golfer. I think that was sort of a cliched version of "This is what we middle class people do when we retire---we play golf." My grandparents worked until they couldn't work anymore. Year after year their grew food and preserved it; my grandmother sweated away in the kitchen every summer canning tomatoes and making jam, and when they finally sold their farm, people bought literally thousands of her home-canned stuff, probably just to take it home and throw out the contents so the could re-use the mason jars. Because that's what you do--you grow food and can it and dry it and freeze it. My aunt does some of the same thing--she's a single woman and every year makes jars and jars and jars of jam. I mean, how much jam can an 84 year old eat? It's not even for gifts and I predict when she dies we'll find hundreds of jars of jelly. Sure, it's a hobby.... it's also work, and a way for her, I think, to feel relevant and useful and to define herself. She's a jelly maker. (Actually she was a cook, too, when she was employed).

I think that defining yourself as your job is a peculiarly middle class thing. I just doubt that the woman at my local McDonald's defines herself as a McD's worker. Maybe she does, but I'm guessing she'd tell you she's a mom, a daughter to her own mom, a hobby jewelry maker, stuff like that, long before she mentioned her McD's job. And while my rich lawyer friend defines himself as a lawyer (he's all about being A LAWYER....), I'm guessing someone who's really, really rich maybe with family money, doesn't define himself or herself as her job, either. Bill Gates is the head of the company now... but he doesn't say "I'm a computer guy" in his self definition. It feels like the ability to do that mostly comes with money and power. Most middle class people I know, you ask who they are, the first thing they mention is their job,whether they like that job or not.

Anyway.... I just got on this train of thought when I got to thinking like "Wow, I have a lot of money," and that some of family would be shocked if they knew how much money I'd amassed. Other people--on this board probably--would laugh at the paltry sum I've saved. (Bill Gates would REALLY laugh!). And I think all of this is where the "greed" I mentioned earlier comes in. If I keep working, keep working, keep amassing, at my job, then I'm a success.. because that's the middle class definition of success--good job, save money. And side-stepping that expectation--"I'm leaving my good job with benefits!"--is met with shock. "But you've got the Holy Grail! A good job, a title, good money and benefits. You have a PENSION!!"

This is rambling, and probably doesn't make a lot of sense other than to me... but the closer I get to thinking I'm going to quit, the stronger that panic feels for me, and it's related to the money and benefits, but also that question of Who Am I besides my job title?

[suomalainen]

I think that defining yourself as your job is a peculiarly middle class thing.

... but the closer I get to thinking I'm going to quit, the stronger that panic feels for me, and it's related to the money and benefits, but also that question of Who Am I besides my job title?

Actually, I think it's an American thing. (In Finland, assuming people spoke to strangers, the second question after "what's your name?" would NOT be "what do you do for work?") Certain incredibly rich people can walk away (Bill Gates), but most can't. Carl Icahn, Bill Gross, Steve Jobs, etc, etc, etc. There are other ways of defining yourself or other things to identify with. And you can start now, before you quit your job. So, who is EK? Among other things, you're a writer, right?

[classical_Liberal]

I think these are two separate issues. Protestant work ethic, & defining oneself through job title. Since you are here, I would venture to guess the former is more of a problem for you than the later. Maybe I'm just saying that because it's true for me. The best way to try and beat the former is practice being lazy. Seriously, try it for a week, it's not easy! Systematic desensitization is my first priority in sabbatical round one of semi-ERE.

[7Wannabe5]

There's a reason why Smith, Miller, and Baker used to fill pages in phone books. Not a new thing. Has been with us ever since grain stockpiles allowed for division of labor. One experiment I did which kind of helped me get over this was literally following "just do work in front of you" practice. I am very "N", so I have to reduce my visual field to a square made by using my hands as blinders in order to get started with this. You will likely start out with tidying, but soon find that there is an infinite regress of varied work you could do just by focusing on very small fraction of your immediate environment, and all of this work consists of bringing forth your decisions regarding what will stay/go, live/die, be brought forth or hidden. Then the question of "who" will praise or reward you for this work you have done may arise, but in a different manner than in situation where contract for reward is first secured or you have previously contracted with yourself to perform work described by given role, routine or check off item on ToDo list.

[2Birds1Stone]

What a refreshing post, EK. One I believe many of us can relate to, at least I know that I can (re: work ethic/obsession, and being surrounded by people who define themselves by their profession).

I've made it a habit to never respond to the question "what do you do" with my job description. Instead, I tell people I'm a mountain biker, traveler, triathlete, lover of nature, who sometimes pretends to fit into the corporate mold, and only that last part if they press. This has been good fun over the past few years, especially at family get-togethers and BBQ's with a lot of semi new face trying to make small talk. My closer family and friends who we see more regularly, love to ask about work, to which I also get a kick out of being truthful....that I try to work as little as possible and focus my energy on other things. This is usually a great way to change the subject from basic water cooler talk. In my experience, it also gets people to open up about what they do outside of their profession (which I try not to even ask about).

I don't want to derail your thread, but I have a great story about work and grandparents I may share down the line.

[EdithKeeler]

So sitting in Ye Olde Hampton Inn again, my (apparently new home away from home. Here for 4 days, then back home, and two trips next month. I think this job is not going to work. Too many hours, kind of frustrated, and there’s a part of me that weirdly likes it (ie, being busy, feeling like I’m sort of important in this tiny little pond), but mostly just feeling really tired, and just tired OF it.

And I have kind of a bud in this office—every time I come, he asks me what I’ve written lately. Not a whole lot of people I work with know about my writing, but he does and says he really likes it. So my one fan is at the office, and I’m always reminded while I’m at work that I’d really rather be doing something else.

Anyway... I’m lonesome, tired and a little frustrated, and I’m going to have to be really careful because I don’t want to burn out like I did before. I am taking some vacation time next week and I can’t wait.

[Sclass]

I think--maybe--a lot of it is a middle class thing. Because work is not only What You Do, but it's also Who You Are. ...

I get to thinking I'm going to quit, the stronger that panic feels for me, and it's related to the money and benefits, but also that question of Who Am I besides my job title?

While watching James Johnson’s Born Rich many years ago, I marveled at the conversation he has with Robert Wood Johnson about “doing something”. Apparently he was expected to start a collection possibly in old books or maps and become some kind of expert. After retiring and feeling like a big nothing I realized the importance of “doing something” even when it doesn’t put food in your mouth.

[EdithKeeler]

I had lunch with my old boss this week. He retired a few months ago, and I was promoted to his old job. And then, as often happens at these pivot points, they changed the job, adding 1 more employee and 1 and a half more times the files. Then some of my team moved and quit, and bottom line, I’m not doing the job I thought I was going to be doing, and frankly, I’m none too happy about it.

So here’s my old boss sitting across the table from me. This formerly buttoned up company man is now wearing board shorts and flip flops, has let his hair grow out a little, he’s laughing more than I’ve ever heard him laugh—and he’s so happy and relaxed. He’s telling me stories about his $10/hour job where he works 15-20 hours a week at a non-profit whose mission he really believes in (“I love it”).

And he tells me that he and his wife are living on his small pension ($1000/month), his job and her part time job at the church—about $2k a month total. (“We actually have saved a little bit of that every month.”) . So his savings and investments can continue to grow.

Needless to say: I am so freakin’ jealous!! I’m taking today off from work because 1) I have quite a few vacation days to burn before the end of the year and 2) I’m having some furniture delivered, but I’m actually going to be working at home for at least part of it because I’m so far behind. I feel like “if I could just get caught up...” but I really think that unless something fundamental changes about the job, I will never be caught up.

And I’m going to add that I’m writing this at 3:00 in the morning because I can’t sleep for worrying about this shit.

I am just, if I’m really honest about it, not happy with any aspect of my life. I was talking to DBF (yeah, we’re back together—sort of—long story) and everything just feels stuck. I’m really afraid that if I quit my job, I’ll be stuck as an unpaid caretaker for my mom. So many reasons not to do that. I could quit now, financially, but it would be much leaner than I want it to be, and then I’d have the mom thing. I feel like I don’t know how to convert my prior experience into another job. And I’ll be 55 next month. Who wants to hire a 55 year old?

It’s depressing to think that I have to hang on to this shitty job for the moment, but I think I have to. And it really pisses me off that I’m going to fail at this job, because I don’t fail at stuff! I don’t fail at things! I’m always the A student, the person who is always the best, and I feel like this job is setting me up for a massive failure.

Which is why, I know now, my boss retired earlier than planned. He hated it, it was getting worse, so he quit. There’s another guy at my company who’s in the same boat—the job changed, he can’t keep up and is failing. He can’t quit because he’s got a special needs kid who generates some big expenses for schools, etc. And he’s older than me.... who hires older people?

I’m going to put out some feelers for a new job, but I don’t have much hope. I’d really planned to work just two more years here anyway—ideally—but I don’t think I’m going to make it.

And yes, I’ve tried to talk to my boss about some of this. The politics are complicated. On the one hand, he says I’ve handled all this transition stuff really well. On the other hand, I’ve done it working until 7 every night and some Saturdays. And it still is falling apart. I’ve argued that the workload model is wrong, but I’ve been told it’s not, despite the fact that it’s not really working for any of the managers.

It pisses me off that my reasonably ok work environment has turned into a toxic swamp in 3 months. And that I can’t just walk out. I could if I HAD to..... but I’d just be walking into a different swamp.

And get this: my mom’s been in a nursing home, but had to go to the hospital. I’m having to pay $250/day to the nursing home to hold her place so she can go back after the hospital. So far we’re at $1500. I could say no.... but there’s no guarantee anyplace would have an opening when she gets out. And of course she has no money. Gah.

Sorry to vent my bad mood on anyone reading this.

Meh. It’ll be light soon. I’m going to take my dogs to the park for a run and hopefully we’ll all feel better.

[Bankai]

In my decade in corpoworld I found out that:

1) The situation in the workplace never improves on its own. Period. It either stays the same, or it gets worse.
2) Above-average workers tend to be rewarded with additional work, while average/below average have work taken away if they can't manage.
3) Doing extra hours to make up for bad organisation/structure never pays off. See points 1 & 2 as to why.

If your work situation is as bad as you write, why don't you just do what your boss did and take a wee part-time job to cover expenses while your investments grow? If you're already FI, is having more really worth it? Consider your age as well - how long do you want to keep working?

Other options:

1) Can you get demoted back to your previous role?
2) Can you get a job in another company at your previous level?
3) Stop doing extra hours and let things collapse? Currently, your an enabler of this bad situation - what's the worst that would happen if you flat declined to work any more than your contracted hours? They'd fire you after few months with massive severance package? Would that be so bad? And would it be not more likely that you'd force them this way to make some changes?

[Sclass]

... but I’m actually going to be working at home for at least part of it because I’m so far behind. I feel like “if I could just get caught up...” but I really think that unless something fundamental changes about the job, I will never be caught up.

And I’m going to add that I’m writing this at 3:00 in the morning because I can’t sleep for worrying about this shit.

Your a really good employee. My lazy sister once told me this when I was describing a similar situation that was causing me some anxiety.

“What happens if you fail? Seriously, let’s play this out and see the chain of events if you just blow it.”

Worst case is what? Company let’s you go? I don’t think they will given how hard you fight do them, but if they did, so then where are you? They’ve done you the favor of deciding if you’ll continue to work or not which is a big question right now.

Good luck with things. Sounds like you got the job because you’ve done such a good job for them in the past. What’s wrong with underperforming a little.

[jacob]

What's the saying... there are three kinds of people or horses: show horses, work horses, and horse's asses.

In a "modern company" (if there's a thick employee manual, it's a modern company) the entire structure is created by some show horses in an off-shore/out-of-state HQ and propped up by a few work horses in each office. This makes it appear to HQ as if their design works. Then one of the work-horses leaves. Two things generally happen. Either a horse's ass gets promoted or brought in from the outside or the work load gets distributed to the remaining work-horses. The latter is more likely. This saves the company the salary of a full time position and the distant show-horse director gets a bonus for bottom line cost-savings and increasing the "productivity".

This can go on for a while. There's a bit of a Gresham's law in effect. At one point, things get so bad/overworked that the best employees start leaving. Once they do, they create a channel/network out of the company and the whole work-horse structure collapses as they all leave in short order often to the same new company.

This leaves the show-horses at HQ stranded with the horse's asses... It doesn't work and ultimately the plant/office is closed.

Time to re-read the Gervais principle?