Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Where are you and where are you going?
distracted_at_work
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Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by distracted_at_work »

@James

I've thought about that a lot in the last two weeks. I should have articulated better in the other thread, I would never give up on becoming financially independent. I'll have 100K CAD in a brokerage account soon, yeah. 100 000K @ 7% = 7000 / Yr = $583/month * .75 USD/CAD = $437/month. Ignoring the gigantic assumptions in the math, my extremely brief reasons (I could write a long journal post on them) are:

-Celiac disease (difficult in a third world that doesn't understand gluten is in soy sauce).
-Leaving friends and family behind.
-No room for error if I go on such a small amount.
-Losing the momentum I have right now.
-Greed.
-Desire to build something/do something
+ more

@JeanPaul

It'd be much appreciated if you could possibly elaborate how you have managed any of the above that apply? Thanks for writing.

JeanPaul
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:15 am

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by JeanPaul »

While you did note you were making a giant assumption, a 7% withdrawal rate is clearly unsustainable:
http://www.firecalc.com/

"Here is how your portfolio would have fared in each of the 116 cycles. The lowest and highest portfolio balance at the end of your retirement was $-477,374 to $296,275, with an average at the end of $-60,702. (Note: this is looking at all the possible periods; values are in terms of the dollars as of the beginning of the retirement period for each cycle.)

For our purposes, failure means the portfolio was depleted before the end of the 30 years. FIRECalc found that 71 cycles failed, for a success rate of 38.8%."

Leaving friends and family behind is, of course, the toughest, but I am with my girlfriend, it is also cool to make new friends from very different backgrounds, and my parents have visited for at least a month in every location, as well as many of my friends in one or multiple locations (and my sister even came to live in Berlin). But it's not for everyone. Then again, many people live in cities across the country, and just see their family at a few holidays.

The amount does need to be larger, but I think there is actually some room for error at 3 or 4% - any wreck tends to be in slow motion, well-telegraphed with withdrawal rates well above 4%, so it will take more like 20 years to end up on the rocks, during which time you can find work or sources of income. With all the time and room to think, a lot of people find interests that happen to make them money without it being the main goal. Personally, I haven't found a whole lot in that vein, but actually recently I did start something that should bring some extra cash in the course of entertainment (we'll see how much that ends up being, but hopefully more than online poker!).

Greed is not a problem for me - I've never had many material desires. But it certainly depends on the balance in each person - how much they value freedom from work vs wealth, and I don't think early retirement is for everybody, or even most people.

The desire to build something/progress is often important, but I don't think there's any particular reason it should be tied to work, and certainly to your current profession - I would say it's quite a coincidence that those two things should match up, in fact. So having the free time and free brain to pursue other interests should allow you to build something - maybe that will turn out to be work (or maybe philanthropy, self-improvement, etc.), but it's probably not a kind of work that you would have had energy to develop alongside the 9 to 6. If your idea of building something is progressing up the corporate ladder or building a great fortune, that's harder to achieve, of course.

Celiac disease I can't speak to, but I guess that might necessitate living in a place where you know either the language or the food very well, or just mostly relying on home cooking (which I did anyway in Spain and Germany, where restaurants are relatively expensive).

thrifty++
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Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by thrifty++ »

Awesome good on you Jeanpaul. Looks like your having a nice time and for a long time.
I am hoping to head off and do something similar once I get to around $200k. Not for as long though just for maybe 5/6 months and then return to the corporate world after that - for a while anyways probably before heading off again when I hit $300k lol

JeanPaul
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:15 am

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by JeanPaul »

I've never had a tennis court at my place before:
Image

Then again, I've never had to worry about this before! One monkey grabbed it, then the other two came to defend (/worship) it.
Image

Typical Penang street:
Image

Distinctive colonial style with Chinese influences:
Image

A mixture of old and new, East and West:
Image

The Chinese dominate the city even with only 40% of the population, and a patchwork of clans and dialects:
Image

Floating Mosque - Malay Muslims make up another 40% or so of the population (mostly in the outskirts)
Image

Indians are another 10-15%, many Sikhs imported as policemen by the British:
Image

Beach a block from our apartment:
Image

Solvent
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Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by Solvent »

It's awesome to read this, JeanPaul. Penang is a place I'm very interested in checking out for an extended stay in the future. I'm actually a bit surprised you manage to live as cheaply as that, there!

JeanPaul
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:15 am

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by JeanPaul »

Solvent wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:49 pm
It's awesome to read this, JeanPaul. Penang is a place I'm very interested in checking out for an extended stay in the future. I'm actually a bit surprised you manage to live as cheaply as that, there!
The biggest expenses are housing and food, and both are very cheap. If one is a big consumer, Western products will be the same or more as in the West, so it would obviously get much more expensive. Alcohol is also quite expensive at bars and clubs.

Still, I think one would be hard-pressed to spend TOO much here. We had guests visiting over the weekend, and they were spendthrifts, but even they couldn't do much damage.

For example, at a Nasi Kandar restaurant, you serve yourself rice with curries and meats, and then they evaluate what you have and charge you accordingly. We carefully balanced our plate with rice, curries, vegetables and meat and paid 4 ringgit for my chicken plate, and 6 ringgit for my girlfriend's fish. The boyfriend ignored the rice and vegetables to pile his plate with five kinds of meat with a bit of sauce, and was charged 25 ringgit, to our horror. But he said, "What a great deal, that's $5.80!" and we realized, yeah, that's not really so bad.

And of course, they wouldn't dream of taking a bus, so it was all Uber. For 4 people over short distances, that's usually cheaper, but they were just as adamant when it was just the two of them. They wanted to go to a temple complex in the hills in the south (and we are in the north), so they got a 50-minute Uber ride. Final bill? 19 ringgit = $4.40.

James_0011
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Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by James_0011 »

Any update on this?

I loved this journal.

slowtraveler
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Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by slowtraveler »

Seriously. I loved your journal.

Being 25 and having just started my travel journey (first in Chiang Mai, now Issan, and off to Bangkok next week), I feel like a young grasshopper finding wisdom. A very spendy, wasteful grasshopper who aspires to spend what you do.

liberty
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Location: Norway

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by liberty »

This is a great journal! I also plan to retire in a cheaper countries. Do you have health insurance? Or maybe you can just go with the flow and pay cash if you get sick because it's so cheap there?

JeanPaul
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:15 am

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by JeanPaul »

liberty wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:16 pm
This is a great journal! I also plan to retire in a cheaper countries. Do you have health insurance? Or maybe you can just go with the flow and pay cash if you get sick because it's so cheap there?
I had health insurance in Germany, since it's required, plus treatment could be more expensive, but otherwise, I have been self-insuring. Even in Germany, when my sister had intestinal worms and went to the doctor uninsured, it all came out to only 22 euros. And in the Philippines, my girlfriend had a bad urinal infection, and with seeing the doctor, blood, urine, and stool tests, and then antibiotics and 2 months of iron pills for anemia, it came out to $20.

But I do also have a sort of "insurance of insurance" since my girlfriend and I got married at a 24-hour Vegas drivethrough last year. In a pinch (let's say cancer), I can go to Spain, where I have full national healthcare. As a German citizen. I've also always had the right to move there and start paying into the system, regardless of pre-existing conditions.

Indonesia
As for updates, while in Penang, we took a two week trip to Indonesia. It is a very culturally rich and varied country, but it was probably our worst experience. Foreigners (called "bule" = albino) are incredibly exotic, and even in Jakarta, random teenagers would come up to ask for (or just take) selfies with us. In some places, it could be a constant stream. Worse, people tried to cheat us relentlessly, and travel is made intentionally difficult for tourists outside of the major cities - Uber and Grab are banned, but also metered taxis, since prices are more controllable, and buses are not allowed to enter the city limits.

Our biggest saga was getting to Denpasar from the ferry port in Bali, which involved escaping from a tout's empty tourist bus, slipping in the back of a public bus after being lied to that it was full, being told the price was 3x the real price, arguing/negotiating loudly in Indonesian (with yelled input from most of the passengers) while already on the road, managing to settle on 40% of the original price, everyone being kicked out of the bus 1 hour from our listed destination and surrounded by aggressive private drivers who followed us to the highway, where we desperately jumped into the first shared van (which grossly overcharged us), still arriving 20 minutes away from the downtown, forcing us to get a Grab, whose driver was so scared of being attacked by the driver mafia that we had to wait at an intersection, and hop into his car as it passed.

But I did like Yogyakarta, the cultural center of Java, quite a lot, and could see it as a place to live. We also had the cool experience of being invited to a small village on the outskirts of town, where they were performing traditional theater (in Javanese - at least I could have understood something in Indonesian). Basically the entire population of the village was out to watch, and it was a big party. We were the guests of honor (as probably the first bules to ever visit), and were given a big feast with the actors, then front row seats (with more tables of food and drink), then actually brought up on stage to perform and dance. We were each asked to give a little speech, and the the two MCs/comedians did fake interpreting, which got a lot of laughs (who knows what we were supposedly saying!). Denpasar in Bali is also definitely livable. It has all the Western (and Australian) comforts along with local charms, but remains surprisingly cheap in general.

We also had a funny experience in which a Facebook post of ours (intentionally) went viral and was shared tens of thousands of times, we were in Indonesian newspaper articles, had thousands of friend requests per day from Indonesians, etc.

Indonesia also gave me a great chance to practice a lot of Malay/Indonesian, often while trying to ward off scams, since people actually speak it there, unlike in Penang. In the end, I'm a little disappointed with the level I reached - I can make myself understood in all daily situations, and have a basic chat with an Uber driver, but I never practiced enough to really be able to have a conversation at normal speed, understanding accents/slang etc.

Borneo
After Penang, we took a trip within Malaysia with my girlfriend's younger sister (who first visited us for a month in Peru when she was 11 years old, came with us for a month to the US, and visited us twice in Berlin!), and two cousins. We visited Kuala Lumpur and Malaysian Borneo. I liked Kuching, which is a little bit like a mini-Penang. We also stayed in a cool place with cabins (or treehouses) in the jungle at a national park, but also with beaches, and by the side of a volcano. We camped on the tiny coral islands in the harbor off Kota Kinabalu, which were truly beautiful. If you look for "Sapi island" in Google images, those colors are with no filters or photoshop, believe it or not, although they vary with sunlight. And of course it's exciting to spend the night alone on a desert isle.

Philippines
Then we headed off to the Philippines for about a month. We didn't enjoy this too much - the food was very mediocre, and it didn't really interest us culturally. It's very Americanized and Spanishized in the worst ways, mall and consumerism and fast food dominated by Catholicism. The beaches are very nice, sure, but we're not big beach people, and that doesn't hold our interest very long. On the upside, the people are incredibly nice (and honest!), certainly the friendliest in Asia, and rivaling Colombia for the friendliest we have met in the world. And also, things are easy because the level of English is pretty good. We did enjoy the tiny island of Malapascua off Cebu, since we mingled with the locals a lot, and it's a quaint place with no cars and tiny alleys, 12000 people living on a mile-long island. But after that we got a little desperate, moving around trying to find a place we liked (Bohol and Puerto Princesa we did not). The cities (Manila and Cebu) were not nice: poor, dirty and overcrowded. However, the trip was saved a bit with El Nido in Palawan - as touristy and cliche as it has become, it is still an amazing place.

Korea
It was still definitely a relief to get back to the first world. We really enjoyed our month or so here, although communication was more difficult than in any other country, even after learning to read Korean script. The food was good, especially in Jeonju, the people were friendly (even when speaking rapidly to us in Korean), and Seoul especially was a very interesting city, ultimately more so than any one Japanese city, I think, with the mix of historical and traditional with new and vibrant. Busan was also quite a livable-seeming city. Love motels proved a great option for lodging. Even though they are generally rented by the hour, for a night, they are clean, large, cheap and with a lot of amenities (separate modem and computer in each room - dunno how Koreans have sex), and even free coffee and popcorn. We stayed for five nights at the same motel, which I'm sure was a new record!

We also had a great time Couchsurfing with a Korean family in Gwangju. We were originally scheduled to stay for 3 days (and even that seemed long at first, because Koreans traditionally sleep on blankets on heated floors, not beds or even futons!) But we got along so well that we ended up staying for 6 to be around for a traditional Korean memorial service. We cooked Korean and Spanish food together with them, went twice to endless feasts at the family seafood restaurant, and they (a TV producer and a wedding photographer), even did a Korean wedding for us, with traditional garments and the various rites. And, skipping ahead, just this last week, the family came to visit us in the US as part of a two-month world tour, planned slavishly, we discovered, based on our guidance (they even bought the exact same backpacks and laptop)! Unless one has a passion for the language,

Korea is probably not a great place to live, though. Not that cheap, communication is difficult, and it's not convenient in general - e.g. there are very few supermarkets, most banks don't accept foreign credit cards...

Japan
We stayed about 3 months in total in Japan, including 1.5 months in a studio apartment in a gaijin (foreigner) house in Osaka. Osaka is a great city, lively, but amazingly tranquil a couple of blocks away, manageable size, delicious food at every budget, relatively affordable, and right in the middle of all the major historical sites in Japan (Kyoto, Nara). Long-term it would be borderline for our budget, but it's much cheaper than one probably thinks - lodging is really the only problem, and one can sacrifice size (and we did!). And in general, it had all the conveniences that Korea lacked, better English, and even sculptures of all the food at restaurants. I was gung ho about Japanese for a bit, and it was easier than I thought (definitely not to say easy), but after a point, I decided to concentrate on learning a few languages well and gave up. I did find it hard to make Japanese friends, though. I was surprised to discover that a large portion of the young foreign males living in Japan (especially Americans and French) are alt-right types, but that's a topic best left for another day. Kyoto would be option #2 for living there, I think. The first time I went, i didn't like it much, but spending a week or so there outside of the tourist zones, its charm really grew on me. It is a beautiful place, maybe the only city in Asia I would really describe that way, and very quiet and livable. Tokyo was a bit of a surprise, much less frenetic than I had imagined, but I can't say I loved it, although I was certainly far from exploring it, and we had a nice sojourn at the Five Lakes by Mount Fuji. We also went to Okinawa, which I didn't like much, a little bit like the Philippines with the American influence of all the bases. Very suburban and the cuisine is disappointing. One other thing that is expensive in Japan is travel between metropolitan areas. Long-haul buses tend to be quite expensive, and trains are prohibitive. Osaka has a low-cost airline, Peach, which is very cheap, although getting to the airport is almost $10 alone, and for non-Osaka connections, options are often limited.

Vietnam
Our last brief stop was Vietnam for a couple of weeks. Hanoi is a really nice city, one my girlfriend said she could imagine living in, though I'm not sure. It has a lot of pretty architecture and pleasant neighborhoods, and a lot of street life. The weather is also much more moderate, and the winter is actually pleasant. It was a big contrast to Saigon, entirely modernized, ugly and chaotic (and relentlessly hot). In both, traffic lights are entirely ignored, but when there are eight-lane roads like in Saigon with hundreds of motorcycles, sometimes going the wrong direction, crossing really becomes a hazard. In general, I liked the food a bit less than I expected, definitely a notch below Thailand, and surprisingly a bit more expensive than in other places, despite the country being cheaper. The Bahn Mi in Hoi An are delicious, though!

The Final Financial Tally
Traveling is more expensive than living, and we went to some pretty expensive countries, but in the end, in our 10 months, we did pretty well. Our target is 600 Euros/month, and we hit 628 Euros/month. This included:

Travel Thailand: 643 Euros/month
Travel Penang: 462 Euros/month
Live Penang: 371 Euros/month
Travel Indonesia + Penang fixed expenses: 975 Euros/month
Travel Borneo + KL: 638 Euros/month
Travel Philippines: 788 Euros/month
Travel Korea: 772 Euros/month
Live Osaka: 575 Euros/month
Travel Japan: 947 Euros/month
Travel Vietnam: 627 Euros/month

Currently, because the stock market has done so well, I have about 26% more money than when I retired and started this thread 5 years ago. I actually would have considerably more if I had invested more in the US market, but I was mostly invested in international markets for much of the time (and I don't regret it, hindsight notwithstanding).

The Present
As foreshadowed, we are now temporarily back in the US. We had been planning a longer Asian trip, with more time in Vietnam, a trip to Myanmar, and then on South Asia, even hoping to live in India. But we cut it short for two reasons. First, the pace of travel got to us - we definitely prefer the more leisurely integration of a year in each place. The constant travel planning and instability is stressful, and it's not as rewarding in the end either. Only in Malaysia and Korea did we really make any lasting friends. Second, my father got some heart problems which initially seemed very serious, but now hopefully aren't as bad. He's very dramatic, though, and insisted on seeing us one last time! So we came to the US for about three months, mostly hanging around with the family, except for a week in New York. It's been fun, playing a lot of tennis and relaxing, but we're also looking forward to the next step, which is... after a week in Mexico... and three weeks in Cuba.... and visiting family in Spain... probably going to be...

Italy!

EdithKeeler
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Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by EdithKeeler »

Excellent journal!!

JeanPaul
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:15 am

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by JeanPaul »

slowtraveler wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:04 am
Seriously. I loved your journal.

Being 25 and having just started my travel journey (first in Chiang Mai, now Issan, and off to Bangkok next week), I feel like a young grasshopper finding wisdom. A very spendy, wasteful grasshopper who aspires to spend what you do.
Glad to hear!

If there's anywhere it's easy to keep spending low, Northern Thailand is definitely it, and I quite liked Chiang Mai, although it might get a bit small to live in. Are you scouting for somewhere to stay longer, or just traveling around?

slowtraveler
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Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by slowtraveler »

I stayed there for 4 months and got bored of it by the end. Now in Pattaya. Planning to see here some more, dive in Phuket, then see the big city some more before exploring some combination of Malaysia, Borneo, Indonesia, Australia, Philippines, Japan, Spain, Italy, and Iceland. Maybe Peru and Ecuador in the future but I'm no rush to cross the ocean again.

A bit of scouting for a home and seeing the world. I got bored of California and Chile after a couple of decades there so I want to see the world first. I initially fell in love with Thailand but now I'm more ready to explore again. I foolishly bought a student Visa since I thought I wanted to stay long term so I'm out a few hundred. Travelling too fast is exhausting. Staying 1-2 months in a home with a kitchen feels good.

I'd love to find somewhere to settle down but after a few months, I crave to see somewhere new. If I can find somewhere relatively cheap that captivates me long term, that'd be the ideal. South America and Africa seem more dangerous so they're off the table there but Spain or Italy where I'm hoping to settle down. The alternative is to oscillate 3 months in Europe with 3-9 months in Asia but the quarterly long flights seem a pain.

I haven't done couch surfing or hostels yet but I'm thinking to try a hostel in Cambodia for my Visa run.

Any pointers for someone who wants to see many of the countries you've already explored?

thai_tong
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by thai_tong »

JeanPaul wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:34 am
Holy crap this hit me so deep I had to make an account and respond to this 3 year old message to say that it hurts to see something so fundamental to me (Self improvement) being laid out in front of me as something which is agreeably just another distraction and crutch for happy living. Loved to see your acceptance of this and still see how you're changing hobbies to stay fulfilled.

thai_tong
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by thai_tong »

JeanPaul wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:15 pm
The Final Financial Tally
Traveling is more expensive than living, and we went to some pretty expensive countries, but in the end, in our 10 months, we did pretty well. Our target is 600 Euros/month, and we hit 628 Euros/month. This included:

Travel Thailand: 643 Euros/month
Travel Penang: 462 Euros/month
Live Penang: 371 Euros/month
Travel Indonesia + Penang fixed expenses: 975 Euros/month
Travel Borneo + KL: 638 Euros/month
Travel Philippines: 788 Euros/month
Travel Korea: 772 Euros/month
Live Osaka: 575 Euros/month
Travel Japan: 947 Euros/month
Travel Vietnam: 627 Euros/month
Thanks so much for posting this summary. You mentioned on page 1 that you have a budget of $643/month and that your girlfriend had a job in Peru. Are the monthly costs for your trips in Asia the cost for both of you or just for yourself?

JeanPaul
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:15 am

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by JeanPaul »

That's per person, so 1200 Euros for a couple.

I'm glad you found my musings interesting, though I guess I need to make them more actionable before I can hit it big as a self-help guru.

BRUTE
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Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Journal of 25 y/o American retiring to 3rd world country

Post by BRUTE »

"humans should play more Bioshock and Braid" is a message brute fully supports.

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