bigato's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
rube
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by rube »

It's a big loss to have all his posts on his very long running journal and many other topics deleted. I have been lucky I was able to read quite some of them and followed his path (journal) for ~ 9 years (wow!).

Thanks @jacob though for respecting his request and posting his "goodby". And thanks @bigato for all your contributions here. I hope you will return at one day, if it feels right for you. All the best.

McTrex
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by McTrex »

Another oldtimer gone...I hope you’ll reconsider at some point, you’ll be missed!

7Wannabe5
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

You will be missed.

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jennypenny
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by jennypenny »

While I will miss bigato deeply, I must again express my strong objection to the policy of letting people nuke anything but their own journals on the forum. I also object to people being able to edit older posts because they can effectively do the same thing if they are willing to put in the time (see JasonR).

-- We lose a wealth of useful posts (in this case, thousands).
-- We lose the context for other posts, which could potentially put the posts of other forumites in a different and/or negative light. We discuss some contentious issues and context can mean everything.
-- A forumite could quote what they are responding to as a way to maintain context in the case of future nuking, but excessive quoting is frowned upon and often removed from posts.
-- People may feel emboldened to post more abrasive or outlandish opinions knowing they can ask for them to be nuked at any time. If people knew they could only nuke their own journals, it might give people pause before shitposting.

I'd rather see the deletion button on individual posts be extended to 24-48 hours if possible. That would literally give people time to sleep on what they've posted and edit or delete if necessary. After that, you have to stand by what you said. While I truly enjoyed conversations with bigato, cimorene12, and others, I lose some respect for them when they choose to damage the forum intentionally instead of leaving gracefully and with their contributions to the forum intact.

I have great respect and gratitude for the overload and the thankless job he does here. That said, this policy destroys what is the forum's greatest asset -- a rich and wonderful source of information, full of conversations that continue over years.

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fiby41
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by fiby41 »

I second jennypenny. Dragline is an ideal example.

chenda
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by chenda »

jennypenny wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:08 am
I have great respect and gratitude for the overload and the thankless job he does here. That said, this policy destroys what is the forum's greatest asset -- a rich and wonderful source of information, full of conversations that continue over years.
I agree its a great shame to loose all that content, but I am thinking in legal terms the poster owns the copyright to their posts, and hence @Jacob would be legally obliged to remove it if requested ?

BookLoverL
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by BookLoverL »

It is a shame when rich histories of content are removed like that, but personally I'd rather have that risk than have further encouragement of having things on the internet staying around forever whether you want them to or not. The "stickiness" of information on many sites is a significant downside. Personally I probably wouldn't have done it - I'm not sharing information on here that I wouldn't be happy to share elsewhere in any case - but the ability to delete is increasingly precious these days.

It sort of reminds me of the occasion when a fanfiction writer comes along and deletes their old fics for whatever reason (I read a lot of fanfic and occasionally write it). It's sad if you liked the fics and never downloaded them, but that's the risk you take in that space. There's more than one older fic that I really loved that I now can't find anywhere no matter what I type into google.

Really, compared to many historical forms of information, despite seeming to be "sticky", internet data can be incredibly ephemeral. That's why I prefer having physical copies of my favourite books over ebooks. And in some sense not being able to view something any longer makes me more glad that I was able to view it at the time when it was there.

In any case, bigato was an excellent contributor and will be missed.

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jennypenny
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by jennypenny »

I should add that I'm not arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to remove their own (stand alone) content, whether Slate Star Codex, fan fic, or journals. What I object to is removing all record of contributions to a discussion, which to my mind is very different.

If someone is a guest on a podcast, and then (much) later asks for that interview to be taken down, is that acceptable? They can ask, of course, but do they have right to insist on it or does the content belong to the host? There may occasionally be unusual circumstances and in that case the host may choose to delete the show. But should it be expected?

I'd also add that conversations like forum threads or podcasts (or any interview) should be viewed as 'part of a whole' except under the most extreme circumstances, and shouldn't be redacted months or years later.


re: Dragline -- I'll never understand why he turned on the forum so suddenly and viciously, but every time I read one of his old posts I'm immensely grateful he didn't ask jacob to nuke his account. As fiby41 pointed out, it would have been a tremendous loss for the forum.

Jason

Re: bigato's journal

Post by Jason »

I think the resident Overlord of Overload did the humane and responsible thing. It doesn't take much reading between those overwrought Hegelian Dialectic lines to realize this poster was in the middle of a grade A Chernobyl level meltdown and was attempting to save face behind a treatise of ERE double speak. It happens. Individual psychological health trumps all. Anyone who feels war crime shame over something as trivial as calling out some guy for being a multi-level douchebag on a Hamburger Hill clusterfook of a thread, needs to be treated with kid gloves, It's the internet. Let the guy who has lost perspective on that fact take his ball and go home as opposed to imposing some sort of unnecessary academic, historical, or legal standard upon his past pixelation. Hopefully he'll gain perspective and forgive himself for writing some innocuous bullshit that a only a handful of esoteric tightwads in a remote corner of the intranets take the time out to read. It's something I personally can't relate to but I could see it being the case for others.

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fiby41
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by fiby41 »

Regarding legality of nuking parts of the forums

https://opensource.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.php

This licence is applicable to the the forum software so would also be applicable to the database in which posts are stored by that software?

And while registering we all have agreed to

ucp.php?mode=terms
You agree that “Early Retirement Extreme Forums” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database

By negation does this also mean ERE has the right to not remove something if they see fit? Or is ERE too amicable?

After playing in a playground's sandbox does a child have the right to take the sand castle with him when he has only made a tower? Is he eligible for detaching a turret when doing so entails the sand castle coming down?
Children come up with all kinds of rationalizations for not coming down to play. We were once told "we were not sophisticated enough" or sometimes someone would have an exam and at other times the same bunch would be calling out the name from outside the window or come knocking with an invitation to play.

bottlerocks
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by bottlerocks »

@bigato thanks for a wealth of info, I've internalized a lot of what was written by you even if I may no longer have the option of re-reading your contributions.

wrt nuking past contributions: Unfortunately I think having the option to do so provides the most utility for Jacob as a creator and moderator. Too much liability and/or effort otherwise. It sucks for other users who miss out on history and those who have their context broken/misconstrued, no doubt.

@fiby41 the sandbox analogy is reductive at best. It won't help bring people to your way of thinking.

plantingtheseed
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by plantingtheseed »

While the idea of data management on internet is a nice abstract idea, often the reality is such that once it's on internet, it tends to be forever.

..
Last edited by plantingtheseed on Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jason

Re: bigato's journal

Post by Jason »

For the love of who gives a shit, extend the guy some compassion. Especially someone who seems to be a popular member of the forum. Personally, I never read his stuff. He seemed like a commie. But does the world really need "Bigato's Compiled Writings"? Hitchens and Orwell I could see. But Bigato? Not to mention, everyone's crying for the preservation of the historical internet but barely two minutes ago people were getting on Stahlmann's case for bumping old threads.

BookLoverL
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by BookLoverL »

I've had mixed success with the wayback machine in the past - there are some sites where I've been able to find the main page that way but other pages seem not to have been crawled by the bots. But in general the machine is one of the things that makes the internet "sticky".

I think bigato is within his rights to leave and delete his content too, and Jacob within his rights to allow it. It is a shame that the rest of us can no longer reread his insights, but if it's better for his personal peace of mind, then I'm completely happy for it to be deleted. If the deletion makes one of the responses appear worse than before, perhaps that user can ask for their response to also be deleted, if they are worried about it.

If you think about it, nothing is really permanent. Books and libraries can burn, internet servers will shut down in the future if somebody decides they're no longer worth the electricity to run. Even stone tablets get worn away with the weather. Loss of information happens all the time, and if we as individuals want to maintain information for our own use, we can't rely on anyone to do it for us. If information is important to you, keep your own records.

slsdly
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by slsdly »

@fiby41: I don't believe the GPL applying to the database would hold muster. The contents are not derivative works of the software, merely an input which is opaque to the program (and vice versa). Forum posts would hold their own copyright, rights for which we may or may not have waived by posting here. I think it is reasonable to assume that once you've posted something (anywhere! not just here), you've largely lost control over your ability to distribute it.

I believe that if bigato was able to prove his authorship of the comments in some way, he could file a request with the Wayback Machine to take down any content he wrote. In practice, the bureaucracy might be too much to overcome :).

Godspeed bigato.

Scott 2
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by Scott 2 »

Bigato makes some good points on the opportunity cost of participating in online forums. It's something I've wondered about myself. I've always opted to simply stop posting (ala BRUTE) when leaving a forum, rather than the nuclear option, but I get it.

Bigato - if you do cruise this thread anonymously, I appreciated your insight and wish you the best.

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fiby41
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by fiby41 »

Maybe this legislation might've played a role in his decision making process (got email 15 hrs ago)?

Hello Google Analytics for Firebase User, The Brazillian LGPD (Lei Geral de Proteção de Dados) is a new data privacy law that will apply to businesses (both inside and outside Brazil) that process the personal data of users located in Brazil. The new law is expected to go into effect on August 16th, 2020, but ongoing discussions in the Brazilian government may result in a change to the effective date.

No links or anything to understand what's in it.

JollyScot
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by JollyScot »

Good luck to Bigato on whatever it is he is trying to do. If he wanted to delete his forum contributions then this is up to him. Never know how much someone has thought about their decision. He may end up regretting it in some time when they can serve as a useful record or he may just move on.


For those who are really fussed about losing his insight then connect with him directly.


Looking at my own posts they yoyo back and forth and have logical holes and contradictions everywhere. In reality some of those rants could be reworked or removed, however they are useful as a record of a persons thought process, even if only useful for me. Not everyone will hold a similar view though, or they decide one has crossed some line they've made up.


Ponder why he did this if you find it useful, otherwise there are many others with good insights here. All the best with an offline life though, I have considered the benefits of trying a long period of ignoring online world. I would just disappear for a while though. Then again I don't post much.

wolf
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by wolf »

Bigato, good luck to you! Thank you for your insightful posts. Take care!

I see the same opportunity cost with using social media, etc. They can satisfy my social needs, but they are not a real replacement. My social needs are fulfilled by communicating with my family, co-workers and you in the ERE forum. I don't need more social interaction. And if I hadn't found this place, I would have had a much higher motivation to find persons in "real" life instead. It is difficult for me to say at the moment if it will be beneficial or not in the long term. This decision has a trade-off. Maybe I should do both with 50%, EREforum and real life communities, beside family and work. On the other hand, I am content with the status quo.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: bigato's journal

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Damn, this is a real bummer......I was going to try to visit his farm for a workaway type arrangement next year.

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