Error's never ending errings

Where are you and where are you going?
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OffBy2Error
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:11 pm

Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

The plan had been to make some sort of habit of a rambling on the first and fifteenth of the month: title accomplished.

I started actively saving money somewhere in 2014. I might be better off financially if I did not have so many breaks in employment through the years, but despite that I am at the point where 4% withdrawals would nearly pay for my lifestyle in 2017-2018.

However, 4% does not really cover much ground in terms of ERE. This is where the title actually might have relevancy: I have known about ERE for years (even rented the book from a library at some point) and fully agree with much of it, yet I do not implement most of it. My life is not a system, it is just a collection of habits and even those habits break when it is convenient.

So, here I am typing a bunch of words hoping that maybe (this time) something will change... To say I lack motivation is not quite right, I lack caring. Not owning a car is healthier, cheaper, and better for the environment; the only actual reason I do not own a car is I dislike driving. Being not far from FI is (in part) because I do not like clutter. I suspect most of my beneficial actions/behaviors are due to avoidance and laziness.

So how do I motivate a person who lacks interest? What parts can be added or modified to begin changing my directionless activities into something which is more than the sum of the parts? Who ever thought about naught but what one ought? Why did the chicken cross the road?

Join me on this boring journey through space and time as I attempt to find ways to avoid answering all of those questions. Or don't, it is (mostly) up to you.

OffBy2Error
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:11 pm

Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

Rounding up to the nearest 15th, this post is timed correctly.

I have not figured out how to add an image directly in a post, otherwise I would include a silly graph showing my net worth + weight over the past 7 years. For much of it the net worth has a fairly stable incline while weight is mostly stable. Then 2019 happens and weight increases by 50lb and 2020 has a decent net worth spike.

What does this have to do with the main question I need to answer: "So how do I motivate a person who lacks interest"? Not sure yet if it is related. If nothing else, simply putting this somewhere other than my head might be beneficial.

I do have 2 actual ideas of what I would like to do as a hobby having long-term profit in mind. The first (and less likely to happen soon) would be to sell plants. The handful of times I bothered to grow anything it always went well, but living in an apartment for the past decade has limited that interest in any meaningful way. Obviously, there are plenty of plants which grow in apartments yet I own none of them, clearly the interest I do have is not strong enough to overcome my lack of motivation... The other wrinkle here is I would have minimal interest in normal house plants, it would be the difficult to grow/expensive ones which interest me. However, unique plants are that much more effort to sell since you need to somehow verify the seller and product in these cases.

The second (and much more likely to happen) hobby is figuring out how to write short stories... Sort of. There is a special format/topic I have in mind which I have not seen anywhere. Whole host of problems with this as it is not a format I have seen anyone else do, I lack writing skill (if you read this then you can agree), sharing initial work for feedback is not simple due to the special format, and honestly concerned about someone else copying the format because the (probable) novelty of this would be the best shot I have of success. That being said, it is something I personally might be interested in reading if it did exist, I am a bit familiar with the target audience, and doubt I would run out of material.

Does this mean I have made actual progress? Not really. I have been considering both of these hobbies off/on for some time so I do not consider any actual progress until I do something other than thinking/researching. So then is there any benefit to me spewing this verbiage to the internet?

Dream of Freedom
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Location: Nebraska, US

Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by Dream of Freedom »

What are you trying to motivate yourself to do? You don't feel interested in much of anything in general or is it more specific than that?

OffBy2Error
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:11 pm

Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

Dream of Freedom wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:27 pm
What are you trying to motivate yourself to do? You don't feel interested in much of anything in general or is it more specific than that?
At a higher level than I normally think: I am trying to motivate myself to have habits work together in a web. At my actual thinking level: much of anything.

I am extremely close to being financially independent. However, I have no actual plans or strong desires of what to do at that point other than "not work". I can write a huge list of things which I want to do... In fact I have written those lists. I have had a few 4+ month breaks in my career and none of it happens.

If someone were to paraphrase "The Art of War" the easy answer is to use "death ground". That does not quit suite me. Ideally by writing this stuff something might internally click, I will stumble upon a different answer, or maybe someone else has an answer I do not yet know of.

Dream of Freedom
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Location: Nebraska, US

Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by Dream of Freedom »

OffBy2Error wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:02 pm
I have no actual plans or strong desires of what to do at that point other than "not work". I can write a huge list of things which I want to do... In fact, I have written those lists. I have had a few 4+ month breaks in my career and none of it happens.
Well, it's a tough nut to crack. Sticktoitiveness is more of a problem for me personally than gettoitiveness. Maybe ask a doctor to check your thyroid, testosterone, and anything else she might think would cause that just to rule them out.

You could try acting excited about it and try to whip yourself into a frenzy. It sounds strange, but there is some support in psychology for it. Experiments showing people smiling making them happier for instance. Stanley Schachter's two-factor theory would seem to support it (physical arousal + context = emotion). I think that is why Tony Robbins has everyone shout and jump and act excited all the time.

OffBy2Error
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Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

I try to have an annual check up with blood work, although I skipped last year. So far I have tested fine for everything, but always a chance something specific was not checked. However, this has been my mentality for pretty much my whole remembered life so I am doubtful of it. I have also seen several therapists over the years and none of them thought there was anything (seriously) wrong with me which also makes me doubtful it is a chemical imbalance. At least, I would (hope) one of them would have suggested something otherwise.

Yes, I am semi familiar with some of the claims. I actively practiced smiling more years ago which helped people like me significantly more. Did nothing to make me actually happier, if anything made me feel hollow since I am now telling lies with my body. Regardless, being temporarily excited is... well temporary. That simply is not a reliable solution for the next several decades of my life as there is no chance I am going to bother jumping around every time I want to sit down and read a book. If I am not motivated then what is going to cause me to jump? I realize you do not need to physically jump to become excited, however it is simpler to type than "how am I supposed to make myself excited if I am not motivated to try to feel excited".

The annoying thing about motivation is stated in some old saying, "turtles all the way down". Almost every suggestion (to some extent even the medical ones you suggested and I have done) comes down to requiring already having motivation to get it. It does nobody any good for me to say "yes I need to get myself excited" when I know from past experience the motivation to make myself excited is fleeting. I felt the need to explain why I am being so blunt with my counters.

Dream of Freedom
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Location: Nebraska, US

Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by Dream of Freedom »

OffBy2Error wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:26 pm
Regardless, being temporarily excited is... well temporary. That simply is not a reliable solution for the next several decades of my life as there is no chance I am going to bother jumping around every time I want to sit down and read a book.
Maybe it gets you !0% of the way there. That is so much more than zero. Zero % is what happens when you don't try anything. Maybe it has a 10% chance of working. Still better than zero.
OffBy2Error wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:45 pm
Then 2019 happens and weight increases by 50lb and 2020 has a decent net worth spike.
OffBy2Error wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:26 pm
I try to have an annual check-up with blood work, although I skipped last year.
You've had massive biological changes during that time and haven't asked to be screened with this problem in mind.

Anyways, I hope you find your key to motivation and share it with us.

Frita
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Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by Frita »

Hm, you mention that you do things out of habit. That is a strength from my point of view. Could you create a new habit or two that would leverage you in the desired direction?

basuragomi
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Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by basuragomi »

What do you do in your directionless time? With finances on the final leg, I am finding it useful to focus on controlling or eliminating addictive behaviour - things like mindlessly watching videos, games, social media, and junk food. Whenever I beat back the easy distractions, I find the project list starts to get attacked. Maybe an approach worth looking at.

OffBy2Error
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Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

Again, thanks for the feedback and ideas.

@dream of freedom
I do not think we disagree on !0%. I think we disagree about me insisting I need a long-term solution. I do not want to plan the next several decades with the hope that I will pump up my adrenaline levels with excitement anytime I want to read a book haha. Your suggestion is great if I had to pass tests at college, but for creating the life I want for several decades it is not realistic.

@Frita
I failed at adding emphasis where it was needed.
My life is not a system, it is just a collection of habits and even those habits break when it is convenient.
Emphasis was needed on the habits breaking when it is convenient.

Simplest example, for a few months after a checkup at the dentist I brush on a regular basis. Then I stop because I decide to hit 'snooze' in the morning and run out of time or I decide to go to sleep earlier and knowingly skip brushing. It is quite common for me to maintain an activity for 1-2 months, which according to many studies means it is now "a habit" and something I will do automatically... But the habit just stops whenever it becomes more convenient to stop.

Same happens with taking daily walks, meditating, practicing something I want to improve at, etc. I (sporadically) do it for some extended duration then it just stops despite generally being activities I want to do and often have pleasant side effects which 'should' reinforce the habits...

@basuragomi
A few examples: I walk for several hours (about 3 hours yesterday), watch semi educational Youtube videos (how to make your own USB to USB-C connector, how to use sewing machine, things about medical news), there are a few hobbies I have tried to improve at for much of my life sometimes that takes a month... Even if it ends up being watch movies that means walk to library, find something to watch, then walk back to watch it since I do not have any subscription services and currently the walk is about 45 minutes each way.

Let's say that I decide to cut all non-productive computer use, right now that is probably 2 hours a day (recently cooking, US political noise, and game development). Even though I want to (random list of interests) [make my own shoes, start writing short stories, get closer to 8 hours of sleep, read more books, make a VR game] either I am going to end up back on the computer or have internal dialogue about things (examples like thinking about how I could have handled conversations better or finding ways to explain topics like investing). There are a lot of things I want to do, but do not care enough to actually do them.



I am aware this sounds like a child complaining "but I don't wanna!". But I have been trying to figure this out for.... much more than a decade so I am going to cross off things I have tried (using habits) or which do not work long term for me (getting excited or pretending to be happy). I do appreciate any ideas or feedback however!

ertyu
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Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by ertyu »

Developing the skill to deal with the "I don't wanna" is one of the crucial tasks in life. The other crucial task is, "I want to do this bullshit thing/substance very much, and I need to let go of this urge/craving." Being able to deal, inside yourself, with the suck of craving and resistance is literally the skill that makes everything else come together. You can make plans and flowcharts till the cows come home otherwise and still nothing will happen.

OffBy2Error
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Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

Apparently I am still making updates to this. So that counts as a temporary pause in my never ending errings. On the off chance you plan to actually read this then I apologize in advance for the abuse of parenthesis below.

On a tangent, I track my financials in a spreadsheet on the first of every month and it is weird to see how quickly my net value has been going up. About $10,000 increase compared to last month from several things including selling a covered call which I bought back at a profit. I have been wasting time lately playing with numbers and apparently there are several houses in my area which (despite the current market) might actually put me in a position to be FI right now... No idea if I want to go that route and I have a (renewed) 12 month rent lease so...

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In terms of motivation (the reason I am using bandwidth/storage here): no demonstrable improvement. However, I had a weird thought that I may have been going about this wrong for much of my life. I have been interested in stoicism since 10th grade give or take a year (I remember reading books about it during that time though). However, I rarely actually practice stoicism because I have no motivation to do stuff which is why I am typing this. I was watching some videos about stoicism recently and I had a realization that I do not think I can become a stoic because I am naturally a nihilist (more or less). The problem is that stoicism requires you to believe that self betterment (often meaning better self control) is a "good" thing worth striving for, and because I have a nihilistic outlook on life I cannot do it. Regardless of how much I consider it a fantastic philosophy to abide by, if the premise/foundation is something I personally cannot accept then I cannot actually follow it.

Why am I talking about stoicism when the point is supposed to be motivation? Well, what if the "problem" with my motivation is that I am trying act like someone I am not and I am trying to use someone else's motivational reasons for myself? An example, there is a strategy game I used to play frequently (think chess, go, etc) and awhile back I tried to improve my skill at it via studying, became burnt out, and the game stopped being fun so I stopped studying and stopped playing. What if the problem was I focused on "self improvement" while studying and while playing (in line with a more stoic mindset which is that self betterment is something to strive for) which is not motivational for me? Since I was trying to force myself to do something for the wrong reasons perhaps that was what caused me to feel burnt out and stop. What if much of the problem just comes down to "self improvement" (and other similar concepts) have no weight to how I actually think and I keep replacing other reasons with those reasons which is what causes me to not be motivated?

What if I went back and counted how many questions I am asking and how many times I typed "what if"? I would probably rewrite it yet again and I am more interested in moving forward than cycling on that paragraph again.

Let's try a vastly different approach. Trying to focus on doing things because it will better myself, because I should, or similar reasons has failed for an excessively long time. In fact, let's go with what some people think is the opposite: epicureanism. I have no plans to go spend all of my money because (as part of epicureanism) I want to avoid displeasure which includes working for the rest of my life. Similar with not planning to get blackout drunk since I want to avoid the pains of a hangover. I may run into the problem of nihilism should also mean that seeking pleasure is not a good thing. However, I might as well try it and I suspect that the I can chase pleasure without considering pleasure a "good" thing.

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@ertyu
I have heard similar things from a lot of people. Nothing personal, but I hope you are wrong haha. Rephrasing what you said "the key to being motivated to do stuff is to be motivated to do stuff". If I could just do stuff that would mean I am motivated to do it.

I wonder if part of the issue here is a difference in definitions for motivation. I did not have a specific definition in my mind when I started this journal. Perhaps "the general desire or willingness of someone to do something" (from google search which came from oxford) is pretty close. If you did something then you were motivated (willing) to do it, if you did not do something then you were not motivated (willing) to do it. So the only way to (consciously) do something is to be motivated to do it. If I am not motivated to do something then I cannot do it by this definition which I am unsure if I 100% agree with yet.

OffBy2Error
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:11 pm

Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

No financial update since I only review on the first of the month. However, an ex-coworker is still at a previous employer and it seems that the main reasons I left that company were either specific to the team I was on or have actually (started to be) fixed company wide. Since that employer was significantly more engaging for daily work and the pay was much higher I am considering bouncing back to that employer.

----------------

Bone density/strength is incredibly important and one of the main suggestions to improve it is to exercise. I suspect if the average runner tried to use bone density as the main reason to go for a run they would stop running regardless of the other benefits and regardless of what tricks they try to use to do the activity. Instead runners focus on adrenaline feeling amazing, eating another slice of pizza, social aspect, pride, etc and by focusing on these other aspects they continue running. Knowing that something is good for you and using whatever motivational tricks you can find only goes so far, you need to have a reason which works for you to continue doing something.

I honestly feel better mentally since starting to replace self-improvement reasons with pleasure reasons despite barely any lifestyle changes yet. I am trying to undo half a life of thought process, so it is going to be a long time before I can stop noticing when I focus on self improvement instead of pleasure. However, I need to keep digging into myself because chasing pleasure only goes so far. I have gone on several diets over the years and have been failing at consistently dieting for... over a year at this point. Every time I recently tried I have been focusing on self improvement (I need to be healthier) which does not work for me. The previous times I successfully dieted it was because of pride and because it was interesting to see how quickly I lost weight. I know that I often choose the most lazy option and I know that pride can be a reason I do something, so I will try to focus on those 2 for dieting.

Due to work stress etc I think I need to follow a stupidly simple diet, one where there is no thinking involved other than noticing if I am hungry or thirsty. It costs significantly more than what I would normally eat, but ready to drink meals (huel, soylent, etc) have enough 3rd party short term studies and enough anonymous people online claiming to follow it for over a year and I actually did lose 10lb on it earlier this year so I am going to try 90% consume that for a bit. Ideally, since there is no thinking involved, no prep work, and I can focus on pride (look at me I only drank meal replacement for X time) this seems like a possible option for me. Just to double down on being a bad person, I literally threw away the food in my fridge earlier this week: no choice means no thinking and more likely to succeed.

If this is actually the direction I need to go in then I will need to think about ERE differently. For example, yesterday's recycled ERE blog is about using bicycle pump to fill truck tires. By re-using the bicycle pump you save $15, own less clutter, and exercise. Exercising for the sake of exercising (or to build muscle) does not work for me, $15 and less clutter do work for me but probably not enough reason to do several hundred squats. However, my solution currently is to not own a car. It has been easy over the years for me to reduce, it is the building up (income robustness scale, web of habits, etc) which I have not done and I need to sort out.... But, that is a problem for later, currently need to focus on figuring out IF this is actually the correct direction for me and noticing mental state improving is the first data point, seeing if the diet sticks will be a second data point.

Overall, a bit disappointed that this logging may have helped me since I strongly doubt I would have tried this dramatic mindset shift otherwise.

OffBy2Error
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:11 pm

Re: Error's never ending errings

Post by OffBy2Error »

Net worth up vs last month by about $2.5k which is unimpressive for my income level. Stock granted from prior employer dropped by a large amount as everything else went up so my investment growth (excluding additional contributions) was actually -$1.5k.

I have 99% failed on focusing on different motivation and whatever over past few weeks. I do not stop thinking about how much my employer does wrong in so many ways and it distracts me from everything else. I am fully aware that thinking about work outside of work is something I need to stop doing, I just have failed at it.

At this point I am tempted to walk away from my job for a bit and forcefully remove that distraction as I spend time focusing on my mindset. It is currently an employee's market and the career path I am in is almost always hiring anyway. It just really sucks that I am so close to being FI (depending on things (I am very inconsistent) 1-3 years) but my health is on a gradual decline from all of this... Even the 20lb of weight loss has been unwinding lately and it is frequently a struggle to even clean dishes (no dish washer).

"Distraction" is too light a word for current work... I am being consumed by it all day as I think about all the problems (many of which do actually make my job more difficult) even after logging off. I have literally lost weeks of time on projects because of internal processes or miscommunication all of which are easy to fix, and nobody else wants them to be fixed. I am positive the team's output could increase over 25% (based on other companies I worked at), but every time I suggest tweaking our processes other people respond that since we already have this process in place we should not bother changing it. Knowing that I am blocked and behind on my work because of processes that should have been fixed a long time ago is beyond frustrating.

Why does any of this matter to this journal? Because I get caught in mental cycles/spirals. When the spiral is about work then that is what is going on in my mind instead of focusing on changing motivations for doing stuff. Since it is a stressful spiral it also means I end up binge eating.

What a pathetic position to be in. I know that every problem I have is in my head: motivation, thinking about work, etc. I know what the (potential) fix is: changing reasons for doing stuff, stop thinking about work, etc. Then being unable to actually do it.

I guess the one silver lining is that I still bothered to rant on the internet (almost) when I said I would.

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