The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

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ellarose24
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The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

I've decided to start a completely new journal as the last journal started, ended, started, ended, and started all in the same place. My main goal is for that to not happen again, and instead start concrete goals, break them down, you know the way you are supposed to.

Concrete END goal for myself: $800k. I think I could live on $400K, except for health insurance since I have a preexisting condition.

However, the more I read and adopt a lifestyle away from "consumer"--the more I see that sometimes the concrete goal shouldn't really exist, it's more of a simple passing-through. In other words, I do not need to wait to get to $800K to live the life that I want to live now.

Right now, I am defining the life I want to live as "Anti-Consumption." At one point, I would not like consumption to be anywhere in the way in which I identify myself, but for now I believe "anti" is necessary as I fight against years of indoctrination. So it is necessary for me, for the time being, to feel it is a fight in which I will become the victor as I still need to be vigilant in spending energy against consumption. I am not like many of you where anti-consumption is natural and easy.

In fact, yesterday, after realizing that I have in deed been spinning in circles, I felt the itch to buy a bunch of shit for absolutely no good reason except an internal tantrum of "If this never works out, why should I even care." I often feel let down and disappointed not just by people, but by concepts that I try and adopt but fail at. Almost a "you can't dump me if I dump you first." I logged on to Etsy and Amazon--luckily at this point it is environmental concerns mixed with a desire to step outside of the paradigm--not simply a desire to retire early--that is driving me. I was able to think over the consequences of my choices--not just money wise but what was happening--I am upset, my emotions are haywire, first thing to do is consume. I stepped away and cut some fresh flowers from my rose bushes and my wildflower garden and make a nice bouquet for myself, I felt better.

Yesterday I talked to (what does DW stand for, designated wife?)--M--who I am happy to call designated wife as I have become the handyman--I talked to him about retiring early. It actually started with a conversation with my father. He has less than $500K saved and makes over $100K and is working until his 70s. I talked about reducing consumption, he was all on board with "eating out less" but when I said not getting three amazon packages a day he claimed that it's totally fine to do so (because he does so)--since with covid we can't ACTUALLY shop anymore. I dropped it. Then I mentioned the thought of retiring early and he told me I was naive, stupid, an idiot--then went on a very long political rant about "well maybe you'll get free health care" as if it was a bad thing. I reminded him my profession, and he said I don't know shit and I've never been through a downturn in the market before. (It's true, I started working after 2008).

My father has largely despised the fact that his daughter knows more about investing and finances than he does. I suspect he also despises the fact that, despite being "crazy", I am doing far better than he was. When discussing the above conversation with M--he puffed his chest and said we ARE going to retire early. Just need a little bit of male competition.

M currently has $300K saved in retirement account and I have $100K saved in retirement accounts. M works for my old company, which I sometimes regret leaving, that offers a 7% 401k match +10% profit sharing that has ALWAYS hit regardless of the market. So that is a 17% match. I have zero doubt he will have over $1mm by 40. My goal is for $800K.

These do seem beyond FIRE numbers but the game I am playing is different. I talked about this with my Psych/therapist and he brought up a good point, which is that many in the ERE movement are young and very healthy--and may have a bias of always being young and very healthy as long as they make the right choices. I am well aware that sometimes choices don't matter--and I already have a preexisting condition, so my number by necessity has to be higher. That is a lie, nothing has to be anything, but I would not feel safe until my number was enough to safely take into consideration health care.

The goal is to pay off our mortgage--then live in the lowest tax bracket available. Doing so will also let us convert our pretax--about 1/4 of what we save as well as company matches, at a lower tax bracket than we put them into. Well, I suppose that depends on what happens with taxes, but that is the goal. If I end up paying more taxes in the future, but don't have to pay for health care--or get any benefit thereof, I would be okay with it.

I am also playing around with the idea of putting my assets in a trust that doles out a certain amount a year. This would allow me to sign up for medicaid while also preventing me from accessing my funds in the event of episodes. However, I am still planning a decade into the future and am unsure of what the laws/tax situation/etc will be at that point.

That is all big picture, right now the picture is:

Reduce stress by engaging with Interpersonal Social Rythms therapy See here: https://dbsanewjersey.org/wp-content/up ... /IPSRT.pdf

The first step here is SLEEP. I am committed to taking my meds at 8:30--allowing me 9-10 hours of sleep and the ability to wake up at 6:30 AM.

My health has improved quite a bit. A big key has been tracking everything. I use an app called strides and it's really helpful because with it I can see the start or warning of episodes. In either mania or depression, I do not engage with daily habits

I am almost at my first "goal weight." I am 5'8 so this will be a very healthy weight, but I do plan on getting down to 135:

Image

This is an example of reports that can show mood symptoms. Days that are Green are 100% as far as habits. Days that are Blue are over 50% done. Days that are red are 0% done (very bad sign). I haven used this app for four months and find it better to determine moods than simple "mood trackers" because obviously feeling good isn't necessarily a good thing. If i have a week of red--I adjust my habits and scale back. If I have 2 weeks of blue--I adjust my habits and scale back

Image

This does tie into bigger pictures such as staying employed, staying stable, etc. I think it is the first step and it's where I will stay. I will still track spending/savings, but no hard and fast goals yet until I get the rest figured out.

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Alphaville
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by Alphaville »

dw = deutsche welle

also i wouldn't sweat the repetitions. i said something to that effect in the apartment homesteading thread (sorry, talking about you in your absence, but only as a point of reference).

most people hold the same preoccupations throughout their lives. it's what we do. can't be helped.

no need to get frustrated about this, as the questions get refined the more we work on them. and the answers get clearer, better.

also, the fire stuff makes my eyes glaze, but i'd agree health is your #1 priority and i'm happy to see your efforts in that direction.

i've had 3 bipolar friends in my life, and all 3 are dead now. now, don't panic, i know other bipolar folks that are doing ok. but my friends are dead. this sucks, and i miss them. they were fantastic people, but they had their vulnerabilities and maybe didn't protect enough against them.

so... do whatever you need to do to take care of your mental health. if that's your life's theme, then that's your life's theme. that is not a dishonorable life project, nor a useless burden to carry. not to get grandiose about this, but to put it simply, your efforts could also help others. e.g. it's interesting for me to see the data and the charts. i've never seen that approach.

ps- the social rhythms pdf shows me why i detest seasonal clock changes so much. seriously, kill them with fire.

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

Alphaville wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:56 am

i've had 3 bipolar friends in my life, and all 3 are dead now. now, don't panic, i know other bipolar folks that are doing ok. but my friends are dead. this sucks, and i miss them. they were fantastic people, but they had their vulnerabilities and maybe didn't protect enough against them.

so... do whatever you need to do to take care of your mental health. if that's your life's theme, then that's your life's theme. that is not a dishonorable life project nor a useless burden to carry. not to get grandiose about this, but to put it simply, your efforts could also help others. it's interesting to see the data and the charts.
Thank you Alphaville--I did panic a bit but I do also need to be reminded sometimes that I am up against something very serious. Most bipolar people I have known have ended up dead or brain-dead such as my mother.

I actually think retiring early and stepping outside of the paradigm of consumption will be very beneficial to my mental health, and even working up until then--with values that I hold and that I do not let the corporate world define for me--will be much better than if I did not have some sort of system to weave into and out of. 7wannabe had mentioned before that bipolar people made be a canary in the coal mine for underlying societal problems--and I agree with that whole-heartedly. Jacob and others like him have been able to pinpoint parts of society that--in my opinion--make us very mentally unwell, illness or not. The focus is to not apply dogmatic rules as a way of feeding my itch for grandiosity--but to adopt the lifestyle out of my own defined values. The fact that some of these values were adopted from others I will not feel guilty about.

I understand episodes may happen again. But truly, the amount of money I spent and the fact that I still have $100K saved makes me feel extreme gratitude for having these periods of focus and goal-drive goals. Perhaps with my networth I will be somewhere between the average american and ERE goals--but the real benefit is reduction in stress, increase in agency, and stronger definition of personal values.

white belt
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by white belt »

Nice work on all the tracking! It sounds like you are becoming more self-aware and better able to predict when things are off.

I’ll ask this question since as I read some of your goals I see you are focused a lot on anti-consumption. To a lot of us in on the forums, anti-consumption, reducing expenses, saving money, etc are just tools to help us accomplish our goals. They alone won’t lead to self-actualization, but rather can help to clarify the mind and open up opportunities to spend time on what is actually important to a person.

You may have see in other threads how there is talk of the difference between retiring to something vs retiring from something. What do you and M want to retire to? What do you want your life to look like when money is a “solved problem”? I find that spending some time brainstorming about what I want my post-FI life to be can be very helpful for figuring out the path from here to there. The perfect day exercise is one such example of thinking in this way.

Edit: I’m pretty sure DW is Dear Wife. You will also see Dear Husband, Dear Daughter, Dear Son, etc.

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Alphaville
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by Alphaville »

ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:28 am
Perhaps with my networth I will be somewhere between the average american and ERE goals--
i don't know that ere has "net worth goals", per se. i mean, i know the book has that calculation, but that reads to me as almost an afterthought, not the corollary. the meat is in the middle.

i know net worth is a popular subject among the "fire" crowd, and gets discussed here often. but as far as i understand, @jacob's project is not at all about amassing big bucks.

this is why i prefer his recent "post-consumer" articulation of the project. that unfortunately has gotten lost in a fog of interpretations, but i recognize it as probably the most powerful and clear concept of the lot.

i've been interested in a postconsumer lifestyle looooong before running into ere. what was important for me here was finding some tools to implement that lifestyle and live well, rather than wander in the dark in random fashion.

but being postconsumer i don't see necessarily as "quitting work." rather i see it as the opportunity to work on what matters to you without money and consumption pressures.

and yes, removing money pressures can be achieved via "net worth" alone i suppose, but i see that as just one of many strategies, and perhaps the coarser/most rudimentary one of all. at least in my own personal customization of the thing, for my own life. escape money by having money?

anyway there's a couple of things i want to add, such as:

-there are favorable work environments for bipolar folks, and
-your skills might transfer well towards something more aligned with your "mission", e.g. healthcare.

but i can't elaborate at this very moment. i'm just placing those 2 items as bookmarks, for later.

eta: 3rd item: http://www.43folders.com/2009/04/28/priorities

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

white belt wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:36 am
You may have see in other threads how there is talk of the difference between retiring to something vs retiring from something. What do you and M want to retire to? What do you want your life to look like when money is a “solved problem”? I find that spending some time brainstorming about what I want my post-FI life to be can be very helpful for figuring out the path from here to there. The perfect day exercise is one such example of thinking in this way.
Part of it certainly is determining that life!

I think the idea that is touted of "Renaissance (wo)man" would fit in well with my ideals. Right now, with work, all of my hobbies are revolved around combatting and keeping off stress--meditation, yoga, losing weight, meal prep.

When I have had time off, and am healthy, I find myself being very creative and enjoy it. It is that sort of shift I would like to make NOW and it is that shift that I think being ANTI consumption is the first step towards. For instance, I was on leave last year (went on leave twice)--one of those I got better and still had a month off. I spent the time Identifying all of the weeds in my yard with a notebook and colored pencils for illustrations. I was able to make a tincture out of a weed call "opium lettuce" for pain relief, I made a wreath out of my magnolia tree leaves and seed pods, I baked bread frequently, practiced the piano, and hiked quite a bit. I do pretty well at entertaining myself granted I am mentally well and I am not letting in certain negative habits like internet use (which I sometimes consider the same as consumption, except consumption of ideas) or, delude myself that buying things is the same as going into creator mode (for instance, I need to bake bread--so now I need fancy new bread stand mixer and bread pans and such--and spend 5 hours researching best (tool) as if that is me doing something)

One of the things that fulfills me the most about other's journals and the underlying theme of this... movement? is the need for creation. Not consuming requires creativity and that is generally what makes me feel good.

I know I have already mentioned it, but I recently received a book as a gift about crow indian recipes. While a lot of it is about foraging native plants, it is also about living in extreme poverty on reserves--and the author mentions baking bread and cakes in a tin coffee can. Those kind of discoveries--especially if they come from my own experiments but even just reading about them, bring me a lot of fulfillment--and I think ERE naturally favors this type of creativity. I am not very worried about post retirement, besides staying healthy enough to be able to think creatively. I may naively believe that with the lack of stress and increase in time, I would flourish and do not necessarily need strict goals for post retirement.

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

Alphaville wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:50 am
i don't know that ere has "net worth goals", per se. i mean, i know the book has that calculation, but that reads to me as almost an afterthought, not the corollary. the meat is in the middle.

i know net worth is a popular subject among the "fire" crowd, and gets discussed here often. but as far as i understand, @jacob's project is not at all about amassing big bucks.


anyway there's a couple of things i want to add, such as:

-there are favorable work environments for bipolar folks, and
-your skills might transfer well towards something more aligned with your "mission", e.g. healthcare.

but i can't elaborate at this very moment. i'm just placing those 2 items as bookmarks, for later.

eta: 3rd item: http://www.43folders.com/2009/04/28/priorities
Alphaville--you and most of this forum are infinite steps ahead of me as far as consumption. I love the idea of "post consumption" and doubly love the idea of moving past caring about my net worth.

My net worth, however, will be an unfortunate focus until I can save up enough to feel safe as far as healthcare goes regardless of my job. I am still stuck at stage of "anti-consumption." I imagine it is similar to a fundamentalist kid who finds their way into atheism and becomes *that* kind of atheist. A somewhat cringey but necessary step. I do plan to move past this, but am embracing it as I currently stand.

There are certainly jobs better for bipolar. Funny you mention that, I googled "good jobs for bipolar" two days ago. I determined that I will stick this one out at least until we are forced to return to the office--in October. I am researching in the meantime. Of course, it is very difficult to give up good pay when that good pay brings quicker changes in net worth which frees me from job requirements.

Healthcare is something I seriously considered. Specifically, I was admitted to a nursing program and had plans to be a hospice nurse. However, I have thought long and hard and although it is something I care about deeply--the stress from rising empathy levels and compassion fatigue would run me over. I get compassion fatigue just talking to wealthy old farts. Dealing with people that are ill would be an entirely different level that I do not have the capacity for.

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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ertyu »

What app did you use for tracking?

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Alphaville
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by Alphaville »

ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:36 am
Alphaville--you and most of this forum are infinite steps ahead of me as far as consumption. I love the idea of "post consumption" and doubly love the idea of moving past caring about my net worth.
oh i'm not positing this as a competition. i'm just aiming for conceptual clarity, regardless of where i may be "ahead" or "behind" in this. focusing on form, in exercise parlance.
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:36 am
My net worth, however, will be an unfortunate focus until I can save up enough to feel safe as far as healthcare goes regardless of my job.
the... sure, why not, i mean. a pile of money gives you options. i'm just saying, money is not the it of it. but it sure is nice :D
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:36 am

I am still stuck at stage of "anti-consumption." I imagine it is similar to a fundamentalist kid who finds their way into atheism and becomes *that* kind of atheist. A somewhat cringey but necessary step. I do plan to move past this, but am embracing it as I currently stand.
or the ex smoker hahaha. but yeah, anticonsumption is good! except when it contravenes your prime directive, which is to take care of your mental health. e.g. modern pharmaceuticals work better for you than "herbal tea from the permaculture garden."

but of course, broadly speaking postconsumer life is good against stress. consumerism is super stressful! it's an infernal threadmill. it goes nowhere and just asks for more and more and more. a detestable, meaningless life.
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:36 am
There are certainly jobs better for bipolar. Funny you mention that, I googled "good jobs for bipolar" two days ago. I determined that I will stick this one out at least until we are forced to return to the office--in October. I am researching in the meantime. Of course, it is very difficult to give up good pay when that good pay brings quicker changes in net worth which frees me from job requirements.
well, i'm not trying to jump to conclusions or anything, this is just a story:

once upon a time my wife was working for the federal government. while at the job, she met this person who would come in around the time when everyone was leaving. they got to chatting, turns out the coworker was bipolar, and she had accommodations to operate in her own schedule, which was, i think, afternoons and nights or something. also she had some sort of interesting living arrangements--i don't know if it was co-housing or what.

but basically, this person had arranged her life to fit her bipolar condition. and the employer was exemplary about making accommodations. plus the health benefits were pretty great.

so... maybe your particular job description in your particular company in your particular sector does not make such allowances. but others... might?

also, i need to tell you later about the jobs that will kill you like they killed my friend. yes they involved a lot of "wining and dining..." goddammit. a story for another post.
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:36 am
Healthcare is something I seriously considered. Specifically, I was admitted to a nursing program and had plans to be a hospice nurse. However, I have thought long and hard and although it is something I care about deeply--the stress from rising empathy levels and compassion fatigue would run me over. I get compassion fatigue just talking to wealthy old farts. Dealing with people that are ill would be an entirely different level that I do not have the capacity for.
oh no no, that is the front line of health delivery. healthcare is... everything from research to administration to insurance to... lobbying, even.

i just thought something like... if you could combine your ability to work with numbers and data and charts and scenarios... and apply that training & ability towards mental health research, or education, or advocacy, for example... instead of looking after rich old folks... that might be a potent combination towards, say, "a cause" or "meaningful work" or "a mission" that would not be a "making money to buy toys" salaryperson job. could also be... financial planning for mentally ill folks. helping set up trusts and other instruments to protect them. i mean, it's such a vast field.

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

Alphaville wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:14 pm
i just thought something like... if you could combine your ability to work with numbers and data and charts and scenarios... and apply that training & ability towards mental health research, or education, or advocacy, for example... instead of looking after rich old folks... that might be a potent combination towards, say, "a cause" or "meaningful work" or "a mission" that would not be a "making money to buy toys" salaryperson job. could also be... financial planning for mentally ill folks. helping set up trusts and other instruments to protect them. i mean, it's such a vast field.
I have thought about your last sentence quite a bit--a firm that would have a lawyer for trust work/guardianship/etc and then me as a financial planner. (or if I'm really grandiose--I would do both).

The problem is, most mentally ill people have no money.

Maybe not, I'm sure the wealthy just hide them away. Like the Christmas card I got from a family who also has a bipolar son who lost it and now is homeless in Mexico, saying that he "is a dedicated artisan of hand made and sustainable dining room chairs" :D :lol: Better than drilling a hole in their brain I guess!

I'm reading the blog you sent in between work and really enjoying it, need to reflect. Also need to log off for a while, feel very wired today and am back to fighting with people on the internet (not you lovely people).

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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by chenda »

Ella a lot of what you write speaks to me, it inspired me to start my own similar style journal and I spent the last 2 hours writing out a long 1500 word post addressing my financial and mental health issues. In the end I decided not to post it because it was a bit of an incoherent mind dump, but still it felt good to write. Can I ask what app you used for the mind tracking ? I might try and do the same it looks like a great idea.
Alphaville wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:56 am
do whatever you need to do to take care of your mental health. if that's your life's theme, then that's your life's theme. that is not a dishonorable life project, nor a useless burden to carry. not to get grandiose about this, but to put it simply, your efforts could also help others.
This also resonates with me, I've written both quotes down in my diary. I really hope you stick around this forum Alphaville, I think we all greatly value your enthusiasm and contributions.

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

chenda wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:02 pm
Ella a lot of what you write speaks to me, it inspired me to start my own similar style journal and I spent the last 2 hours writing out a long 1500 word post addressing my financial and mental health issues. In the end I decided not to post it because it was a bit of an incoherent mind dump, but still it felt good to write. Can I ask what app you used for the mind tracking ? I might try and do the same it looks like a great idea.



This also resonates with me, I've written both quotes down in my diary. I really hope you stick around this forum Alphaville, I think we all greatly value your enthusiasm and contributions.
Hi Chenda,

I would love for you to post your own journal, I am sometimes overwhelmingly embarrassed by my own posts as the various horoscope for men personalities (MB—just kidding, sort of) all seem to be of the judging type or T—what is t again? And I assume they are rolling their eyes constantly at my flighty dissociative words and thoughts (this is likely paranoia on my part). (I’m INFP—I sometimes don’t know how I found myself here).

The app I use is strides. It has been more helpful than any mood tracking app. But you have to work on it. I may do a post on the future of how I made it work for me—I believe aside from medicine it is my most important habit. However, there is a monthly subscription. Less than therapy. ($5 a month).

I agree that alphaville is such a good contributor/listener/engaged/thought provoked. He seems to do the work of untangling my thoughts and gently guiding with a next thought or next step.

Ultimately my vulnerability has been a major problem in careers and social settings. and any positive reinforcement I get is greatly appreciated in this space where I feel I can speak freely. I am positive there are many more quite annoyed, to think that it resonates with even one person means a lot to me. Sometimes I write and then refuse to look out of shame. I would love to read your own journal if you ever want to post it. I’m into long-stream of conscious-rambling-subconscious vomit. That’s what I tend to understand. I like seeing the work of subconscious all tangled on a page and the beginning of unwinding.

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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by chenda »

Thank you Ella, well I saved it as a word document so perhaps I will review it and post over the weekend, it's very much a long-stream of conscious-rambling-subconscious vomit, I like that way of putting it :)

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

Onto the 43 folders blog

Because, once you see what's really there -- once you know about an idea or a thing or a person or whatever that you'd reject 10,000 other things to protect and nurture -- you've found your priority. And, consequently, you've discovered a bunch of other things that aren't allowed to be priorities any more. Even in spirit.

Well I suppose my priority is a murky essence that I pass through every once and a while but is elusive to come at command. This “essence” is a gift, perhaps of mental illness, perhaps not—maybe I can pretend for just a moment that I am allowed a gift that I do not have to pay for.


This priority had me chase the mountains for some time, because that is where I am most likely to find it. Enveloped in pure shimmery green, or high-altitude fuzziness at the peak of a cliff, Wildflower meadows. Where else is this feeling? Sometimes as simple as sitting in my room, seeing the mottled brown and green of my magnolia leaves, and the cardinals and blue jays and yes even starlings weaving in and out amongst the branches.


Sometimes even, squinting my eyes as the light shines in through my room, and playing with the rays magnifying and minimizing and making into starburst. Or feeling the absolute peace of Sunday mornings, tracing my hand across the lines of my room. Sitting in my hammock, looking up in the elm tree, and playing with the light there too. Or laying on my stomach and peering up into my wildflowers from the ground, as if I was allowed to live in them. Cathedral ceilings in oak trees, brutalist jutting bones of limestone, long, dark and terrifying meandering between pines.

Okay, great—what am I supposed to do with such a priority? This is perhaps the only thing that I would want to protect, but it seems impossible to protect. Altruism was supposed to save it for others. ERE is supposed to allow me the freedom to engage in it uninterrupted. Both of these require complete divorce as I submit myself to corporate world and corporate demands and placing a mask on myself every day as if it is all very natural to me, and I am starting to doubt that mask is as convincing as I once thought it was.

Spending time in this state makes coming back to the world harder. Often, in high school and college, I would spend vast amounts of my time alone—and would be made fun of for how weird I was afterwards—but they were spent in pure bliss. Reading, basking in the sun, small pleasantries at public gardens or giant escapes in backpacking past humans altogether.

Alphaville—what was the point of this blog post? I am left even more confused. Engaging in my “priorities” as this author describes them is directionless and will leave me back to being a turd circling the toilet bowl.

I understand that, socially, I provide little benefit to others. My true priorities are purely selfish in nature. Shall I beg M to let me get on his health insurance so that I can engage in these dissociative spells of wonder?

Okay, enough self pity. What would I need to be able to engage in this currently? I would need a job that has extreme flexibility. No doubt, corporate life seems to continue to chip away at me, I rebuild myself, and I am back thinking that somehow I will make it. Could perhaps the circling I am engaging in be my job? Yet a leap from my job, the licenses I studied for/experience/money/potential money/benefits.

How about this, I go on leave—stockpile my meds, and make the jump. The problem is figuring out where to jump to, and that is something I have zero knowledge of.

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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by Alphaville »

oh no, now i have to live up to those expectations. fml :lol:

reason i linked the merlin mann article is because he makes the very good point that priorities are observed, not manufactured.

e.g. you know that if you don't sleep right or take your meds the shit will hit the fan, you will hurt yourself and your loved ones. sorry if this is not about poetry and green mountain meadows :D it's really about survival.

you know what your key vulnerabilities are and what you need to protect. so you can't "prioritize" aspects of life that keep you from protecting that. you can't "prioritize" more money and pay for it with more stress, because the stress will eat you and vaporize the money anyway. you can't "prioritize" living totally postconsumer outside the system, because with no access to good therapy and good meds your brain suffers, you suffer, your life suffers, your loved ones suffer.

this was just a way to go back to the subject of needing to distinguish what's really important and what are just wishes; to be able to recognize that, and to know the difference. because sometimes it's not as obvious as mann makes it, yeah. sometimes one can be very confused and not know what's what. and stuff like good therapy is a good tool to sort out the difference between real priorities and... mudrooms :lol:

anyway i was gonna say something about the job that killed my friend and... it's too long, but what it boils down to, was that her "successful" job in advertising required drinking with clients and so in that environment her alcoholic family system took over and fucked her up and she ended up losing everything and died. i don't want to get into gory personal details, which are legion, but since her life was such a difficult balancing act ultimately it was the drinking that pushed her into the abyss.

but you know, she got that job because she was a writer and advertising paid very well. she hated it, and the people, but she did it for the money...

anyway part of having postconsumer powers is that even if you must keep working to have decent health insurance, you are also freer to pick a less stressful job that might pay less but won't require you to get shitfaced with the fuckin clients.

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

Ah,

I dislike these observations.

Even without a job, there is ultimately stress that any change in my life good or bad will lead me to your alcoholic friend or to my schizoaffective mother. I imagine green flowery meadows could also induce such stress if a rattlesnake bit my dog, or me. I am worried that my next vaccine will throw me into a depressive state or opposite.

Bipolar only benefits those privileged enough to have an inheritance, that way their manic dreams can come true and society will worship them for it. Although that still tends to happen at the cost of their life.

Anyways back to the drawing board, my nerves were tingly today and I had to take off work again. It seems I get about 4 good months out of me a year. I suppose my only PRIORITY should be how to extend that time. If I had a trust set up that doled out $14K a year and no access to credit or other loan instruments, perhaps I could engage with my mania.

Hristo Botev
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by Hristo Botev »

, and the party never ends.

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Alphaville
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by Alphaville »

ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:00 pm
Ah,

I dislike these observations.

i'm sorry :(
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:00 pm
Even without a job, there is ultimately stress that any change in my life good or bad will lead me to your alcoholic friend or to my schizoaffective mother. I imagine green flowery meadows could also induce such stress if a rattlesnake bit my dog, or me. I am worried that my next vaccine will throw me into a depressive state or opposite.
yeah, there is risk everywhere of course. and stress. which is why access to good healthcare is crucial. you can't end all stress, but you can treat the repercussions of inevitable stress as best you can.
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:00 pm
Bipolar only benefits those privileged enough to have an inheritance, that way their manic dreams can come true and society will worship them for it. Although that still tends to happen at the cost of their life.
yup. and artists. some of my favorite artists and writers and musicians are/were bipolar.
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:00 pm
Anyways back to the drawing board, my nerves were tingly today and I had to take off work again. It seems I get about 4 good months out of me a year. I suppose my only PRIORITY should be how to extend that time.
yeah. i believe you when you say that some disorders are symptoms of the problems of our modern lives. e.g. circadian rhythms (in my house we turn no bright lights on after dark, or the possibility of sleep simply evaporates)
ellarose24 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:00 pm
If I had a trust set up that doled out $14K a year and no access to credit or other loan instruments, perhaps I could engage with my mania.
i didn't understand "engage my mania", but if you could add some quality health insurance to your trust, it would probably be an ideal instrument.

my second dead bipolar friend was an artist who needed very little money. he just needed coffee and nicotine gum. everything else he fixed and sold and jerryrigged and could make work. he also looked filthy, had no social filter, was smart, and inappropriate, and knowledgeable, and hilarious. we loved him, could hang out with him for days.

but his wife, tired after many years of a punk rock lifestyle i guess, decided that she wanted to be normal, a serious person, and own houses, join committees, throw cocktail parties... she was often angry with him and would scold him as if that would change him. it wasn't... an unconditional love thing. they had grown apart. he was the interesting person though. of course we might not have seen all sides of him, but we thought he was great and liked him just as he was.

so eventually they moved to another state, ended up divorced. she was the one with the square job. and he did a lot of useful things but was hard to put a price tag on them. she had to pay him alimony for some years.

but anyway long story short my friend ends up moving to a third world country, starts to make a life there, has a girlfriend, but one day they just found him dead at home. it wasn't suicide--i think it was just lack of good healthcare and he must have had a heart attack or something. too soon, if you ask me.

anyway, if we had a civilized country with good healthcare you would probably have room to play safely in your meadow. but as it is, your state currently doesn't even have medicaid expansion...

and yeah, it is a difficult balance to achieve. it... there is no easy solution, there is no formula that says "if you do this and this and this, all will be well".

that of course doesn't mean there is no solution; it means the solution requires piecing together a lot of parts that right now might be incongruent with each other. but one has to keep trying to make them fit, no?

i mean... look at this rock that the incas fit in their rock wall:

Image

that took a bunch of work... but they fit it :D

---

to add: the search for your solution i think actually falls under the umbrella of contingency goal setting/ effect mapping / web of goals / tensegrity, in the ere book.

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

I did buy the ERE book last week as I received an amazon gift card.

I want to write two observations to hold myself accountable (thought I am reeling right now from second Moderna shot)

From first chapter of specific barriers I may have--I believe my vision is too low and perhaps practical first steps are hard for me to understand. As anything I have accomplished has been a whirlwind of abstract vision and usually no steps--I do get some great things done, but am often left exhausted and with a mess behind me. Because this lifestyle requires consistent, actionable steps and also a very clear vision--it is hard for me to maintain. I also think that the vision can sometimes upset me because I am still chained to this job, and i do not see a way out. That may be something wrong with my thinking.

The second part of the book that sparked a thought was talking about the stress it takes to play the political game at work.

The part that was new for me was to realize that this may be a significant stressor for most people and not just me. I have sort of always believed that this was a symptom of me "not being normal." I have found many such instances where I believe that something that is difficult for me to do or that I just don't like is because I am "not normal"--but come to find out that society actually operates in a way that majority of the people living in it dislike. This is very confusing to me.

But, it is a relief. Something I must admit to myself--part of the reason I want success, whether that is to retire early, or to engage in my fantasy of effective altruism--is pure ego. I was successful for a brief time. The positive feedback I got from my family, M, friends, etc, it did feel very good. My friends are unfortunately part of the, maybe 2%? They are intergenerational wealth, and although they hate academics, they do things like get a PhD as a wealth signifier or pay to go on a two month excursion backpacking in the alps (they are at a different level, luxury purses don't cut it at this level).

I need to change the way my mind works because my parents set me up with these families through private school etc with the expectation that I would become them, however--my parents did not provide me the funds to do so nor the social skills, all of that seemed to break down with my mother's break down. I am in some ways grateful that I could experience reality (these people truly live in a different world). But it also set me up with a huge inferiority complex. And now that I think about it, this inferiority complex was passed down from my mother, and from her mother. (my mother always complained about the "Junior Leaguers" yet she tried so hard to be one. She also complained that her mother tried so hard to be one!)

In that way, it is great that I can cut off the generational attempts at WASP lifestyle simply because it is impossible for me. But--my ego still wants to compete.

That is to say, that much of the stress that I have is induced by me. And given that I need to reduce stress to a minimum, but do not yet have the funds to really get to say what I am allowed to do with my time, self-induced stress seems like the easiest to shave off.

Because of my previous success, the jobs that I take tend to be in similar fields and in similar ways they encourage promotions as fast as you can get them. There is a sense of guilt and even shame if you are not promoted, for instance, in 2 years. Although I have ultimately stepped back to be what can best be described as customer service for the wealthy to ultra wealthy, the expectation is that I would move on to do planning etc for these same people. I do not want to do this, I do not even like these clients that much (I do enjoy the very old people whose age and bodies tend to bring them humility despite their networth)--but. My only goal is to stay hired by this company until I can receive full benefits (company match, etc etc).

I really do have to take ego out of it. Another very large stressor for me is absolute fear of an upcoming episodes, as my "blips" have become more frequent. I think effective altruism was likely coping with the fact that I need health insurance and so need to be employed, but really--I don't need health insurance, I do need a bigger stash to pay for my own health insurance. I am also grateful for ObamaCare which means someone like me can even BE insured without a job. It's at least a step, right?

Something I have been doing is labelling activities with a stress indicator. I haven't exactly sorted it out right, but for instance--I had a page worth of "stressors" that I made to try and dissect what was increasing stress levels. 90% were self-induced stress in the form of thoughts such as "I'll never be normal" "I'm going to get fired because I keep taking absences" "I will have another episode and lose my job and M will leave me"

I ranked them from 0 - (-)10 and then tried to do activities to combat them. I found meditation barely lowered stress, while yoga and sitting in the sun significantly lowered stress. I also decided to use the last stressor I listed--fear of my life being ruined from an episode, to put quite literally all of my willpower into not having another episode. Because I have my mother as an example, I am willing to do anything to stay sane.

I changed my monthly goals to more influence interpersonal social rhythms therapy. I no longer drink coffee, go outside between 7-8 AM (as sun in rising). Yoga, walk, meditation--etc etc.

As far as ERE goes, the only thing I'm going to track is spending and my goal is to get it to be significantly less than it is

I spent $2325 last month. Big items: $600 for minor roof repairs, $375 for a portable AC, Replaced filters on fancy HEPA filters that I have throughout my house AND bought a new one (around $300 for all). In retrospect, I do not need all of them, especially now that we keep the windows open. $100 for vet bills and of course $500 towards the mortgage.

Groceries were about $300 and I'd like to get that down to $200 just to start

$200 was sent to a non-profit which I have now stopped donations to as they are largely funded by shell.

Small goal for myself is to get spending to $1500. I will trim more as time goes on. I do not do well with Jacobs extreme changes, I like to move very slowly in the right direction and adapt at each step.

ellarose24
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Re: The Road Goes on Forever--Sometimes in Circles

Post by ellarose24 »

Modern society seems to give women two options: Successful career woman or traditional homemaker

Remember that we have to remove the cultural and societal narratives that have framed women—yes EVEN the ones that seem on the surface to be about empowerment.

As someone deeply concerned with sustainability, ecology, and all other things green-loving-hippie… I notice that there is an overwhelming trend that the only “serious” people in the anticonsumption/permaculture/various other alternative movements are men. Why is this?

Women who decide not to join the rat race are often labeled as “other.” Even in feminist movements, a woman who is not revolving her life around her career and as a consumer is considered to be a failure. Then you have women who reject feminism for the above, say that they don’t want to be in corporate america—yet they always have the same story—they are going to be a housewife as that has always been their dream. It seems you are forced into a false dichotomy: either trad-wife or successful career women. And it is, unfortunately, reinforced—with many movements that started as green movements being adopted largely by religious fundamentalists women who love the title of homemaker, feel the need to have over 4 children, and start gardening for their own food and homeschooling as being “old fashioned” which they take pride in as being "god honoring." They are not interested in moving forward but in moving backwards and closer to "God"

It seems we don’t have many templates for women who truly stepped outside of cultural norms. I think of one woman I have always admired—Tasha Tudor—but even she said insanely backwards thoughts like women should love and appreciate femininity and giving up skirts was one of the great misfortunes of women.

Jacob, in his book, talks about the red-pill of consumer society. There is another, greater red pill which is gendered socialization and it is the latter that is far more painful for me, but equally life changing, and certainly adds an extra layer into ERE if you happen to have been born female.

There is a social capital in performing femininity. It is true, men have similar pressures to perform masculinity, but I do not think they are nearly as insidious, ever-present, and demanding nor as restrictive as what women experience. Since the beginning of time, focus on being “pretty” and becoming the male’s archetype of all that is good in the world—in other words a non-human fantasy—has been presented as the norm in all cultures and all forms of media since media has existed.


And while I am VERY happy I do not live currently in a third world country, nor that I was born even 100 years ago, the fact is that the role of “woman” has become more contentious and demanding as ever before.


I feel upset sometimes that I seem to not be allowed to appreciate the absolute progress that has been made towards women’s right without still critiquing the current culture I live in, as if having any complaints makes me ungrateful that I currently don’t have to have 10 children and depend on my husband to leave the house safely or sit in a menstrual hut 12 weeks out of the year.

Here is where I think the break happened. In the past, women were made to be objectified or “presentable” during a very specific time period—their courting years. From the age of 15-25, depending on the culture, a young woman’s main role was to attract a mate. Once she had fulfilled her “duty” of becoming a wife and a mother, her role changed and often that role was no longer about being physically attractive. With her duty fulfilled, she gained some sense of autonomy insomuch as she was now the homemaker, and the homemaker had many roles outside of being appealing to the male sex. I am not saying that being a homemaker was good or bad—only that there seemed to be this undercurrent of exchange where a woman was, in the beginning, made to be ultimately for the attraction of a mate, and once the duty was fulfilled, there was a transformation where her worth was found outside of male attraction (although still tied to upkeep for every other part of men’s life).

In our current society, this transaction does not seem to take place. I was, ultimately, very excited to be turning 30. I grew up constantly praised for my looks, and like most other attractive women I know—this did not develop into confidence, but instead into extreme insecurity, sometimes jealousy, sometimes pettiness. If you live in a culture where you are told your looks are one of the only forms of currency you have, you do develop some neurotic ways of dealing with these looks. There is a reason, for instance, for the trope of a woman shaving her head—it has everything to do with trying to gain back some sense of control over the only currency that dictates her life—at least in her early years (puberty to about 20).

The way you socialize with the world is also very different. If you have grown up having men praise you for seemingly nothing, you have a hard time telling if what you are doing is worthy of praise or if some dude just wants to get laid. This becomes more obvious in your mid-20s typically after multiple unfortunate events where you accepted men’s praise but did not accept his advances at which point all praise was taken back and spit out again as acidic insults.

In that way, losing male attention begins to seem appealing. In my later 20s, I began to work with people much younger than me and I also put on some weight and went through a very bad spell in which I wasn’t taking care of myself. Before this time period, depressive spells did not do much to counteract male attention, in fact, they seemed to merely bring a different and more manipulative man. But in my later 20s I believe some of my attraction waned, and I did find a certain relief as, for instance, my work life was not dictated by dodging and accepting and playing stupid as men made direct/indirect/all kind of comments about my appearance and my abilities as a young woman. 

Before #MeToo, I had some veritable horror stories of my life in corporate America. These all seemed to disappear in my late 20s I believe specifically because of MeToo added with the fact that I was not considered the prime target of men in their younger 20s. And for several months I relished the fact, and I began to gain quite a bit of hope for my future where I might be otherwise invisible.

But several things began to happen that were difficult for me.


Number one is very embarrassing to talk about, but I did not know, and still have trouble, knowing how to navigate the world as a simple “human being” and not someone who has the social capital of “very pretty.” As I stated before, interactions had been filtered through this capital in the past. It was a world of dodging, accepting, weaving in and out of other’s intentions. It was not easy, and I wish that was something others would understand. Being pretty was not a privilege—it came with massive insecurity, and it also required strategic manipulations that were a NECESSITY to continue to progress. For instance, a manager who pulls you into their office for an hour and a half which ends up in him bragging about his billionaire friends showing pics of him at exclusive clubs etc—you would have to weigh the rumors that others would start vs the retaliation of your manager if you made it clear he was wasting your time. Given rumors would start regardless, you laughed and acted very interested in his millionaire friends as it gave you the benefit of being favorited. You accepted invitations to talk to upper level management and also accepted that when you were promoted, people would say there were underlying reasons outside of your abilities.


You also, of course, constantly wondered if other were right and you had no real abilities. It seems you were identified purely based on the capital of being a sexually desired female, and all other parts of you were compartmentalized.

The second issue was that your age did not prevent the judgements with which society said how you SHOULD look. I imagined at 30, it would be as if I woke up and society said, “That’s okay, you’ve done your duty—you are now allowed to exist within the freedom of being relatively invisible”—but this did not happen. I suppose this can only happen, in the current paradigm, when women have fulfilled a different social role—wife and mother. If not wife and mother, or even if you ARE wife and mother, but dare to have an identity outside of such, part of the goal is to maintain the social capital of being “fuckable.” This is why I believe things like homesteading, being “natural”, etc are moved into the corners of cultures where those identities are still the primary identity of women: fundamentalist Christian or anti-science hippies (think anti-vaxxers that homeschool their kids).

Outside of these, in corporate America (at least in my opinion) with very few exceptions women cling as hard as they can to the small “advantage” they have of male attraction. I realize this through various situations, first of all—when I realized that the women three tiers above me were in their 50s and not 30s, they simply had very good work done. Secondly, when all of my friends began to talk about their cosmetic procedures—although this actually started in my mid-20s. I would say about 75% have already had botox and 50% fillers. Thirdly, when my own SO did not seem to understand that every time he pointed out a woman that was older that “really took care of herself”—which I believe he did to give me someone to aspire to—had had significant work done, however—when I brought up getting work done on myself (botox) he would be disturbed and upset at the idea.

So it seems that there are largely two choices. In one you fulfill traditional gender roles and as a reward for fulfilling such roles, you are allowed some autonomy in appearance (I do not find this a worthy trade, unless you truly aspire to be a mother). Or, you become a Career Woman, at which point you must continue to commodify yourself beyond the historical ages and well into your 50s, at which point you MAY have enough of a reputation and portfolio to where you are granted forgiveness for the age that will not inevitably show regardless of procedures.

Now, I am also aware this is largely hyperbole and also largely based on my field which is in sales. However, lurking many modern feminist movements, I do not think it is out of the norm. Career Woman, in most movements, includes terms like “bad bitch” or “boss woman”—and have a subset of culture revolved around appearance. I do not judge women for seeking this appearance since, as I have stated before, a successful woman is designated a very specific appearance and having the costume to immolate seems helpful in those who want success.

I believe that these things are potentially bypassed in academic/scientific roles (although I feel the opposite may be true, attractive women are taken less seriously). I also feel that using the ERE approach talked about in the book of happily staying in your current role with no drive for promotion would get rid of this problem, as, of course, would ERE.

This is all to say that I am finding that the solutions for my delve into radical feminism and my solution for consumption to be the same. It is ultimately learning to play the game without letting the game consume you or your values, with the goal of dropping out of the game altogether as soon as possible. Before I came back to ERE, I had gone through a spell of—rabid feminist (no makeup/no shaving/no polite pleasantries) to then deciding that I would use femininity as a weapon in my career and in other spaces to get what I want. To be honest, the latter was far less stressful, I suppose because this is the defined route for most women and the conclusion most come to. And no matter how rebellious you initially feel, walking into a space with unshaved legs in the bible belt south comes with a shame that is hard to match.

It is often the stress and dichotomy between doing what I need to get ahead vs my personal values that makes me feel like I’m ripping apart at the seams. A huge change in my mindset is to realize that I am not looking to “win” any of these games. Success is not the end goal. For that reason, while there are still some politics/gendered roles/ etc that I need to understand and play by, I do not have to go all out to try and win. However, I often feel very guilty about this, as if I’m not taking advantage of the privilege of a 21st century woman to be successful in the ways it was far harder for my mother, and impossible for my grandmother to be. On the opposite end, it feels like the fact that I will have no children nor get married makes me a failure for “traditional roles” which fuels even more the need for me to be successful in Career Woman role. It seems I have not yet been able to separate myself from this set of rules, and finding other women that have is also difficult. I assume they have found it necessary not to advertise themselves, because if they do they will be judged and siphoned into either role regardless.

Of course, there is the added layer of mental illness which should in fact make it easier for me, as I don't think I really have the ability to be successful at all. But that really just makes me feel angry and more rebellious, and pokes at my ego. There is certainly something in me that runs very deep that is a sort of rebellious "I'LL SHOW YOU ALL" that sparks up every once and a while--that does indeed want to win all of the games out of pure ego (or pure insecurity, same thing right?) I need to understand where that is coming from and why, but that is a different day.

The next step is trying to understand what the bare minimum necessity is in both gendered roles and corporate politics while I continue to gather capital that will allow me further autonomy. I do not think, even with FI, I will ever fully get rid of gendered roles—for instance, though my SO is far more progressive than most men, especially in the south, he still likes appreciates me looking “pretty”—beyond being well groomed, this means make up and dresses and the like. And, I too cannot discern sometimes my own enjoyment of femininity or that of socialization—nor do I feel the need to add more guilt by denying the fact that I often feel nice when I spend some time on my appearance. We do not, and never will, live in a future genderless utopia, and I will not pray for my sins and obsess over my guilt in an attempt to get there.

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