7Wannabe5- Take 7- The Money Dimple

[Riggerjack]

If you look at Google maps, in street view, in the upper left corner is a date, when a Google car came by taking pictures.

Click on it, and you can see the other timestamped photos available. See your house in 2007, 2013, and last year, or something similar. I find it helps to see what has changed in the neighborhood, and when.

[Saltation]

I haven't found a mention of it yet but after running some load calculations on baseboard heaters and total energy consumption hooking up the natural gas service might be a net negative. Our natural gas utility charges ~$240/yr just in fixed daily fees for having this particular energy available. If the house is airtight enough and has a basic amount of insulation it may actually be cost effective to pay more per unit of heating with electric than with natural gas. Based on previous posts total heating needs will be minimal given a thermostat setting <50°F.

Do you know the annual heating degree days for your area? How many square feet is the new shack? How large is the panel? 60 amps? 100? 150? 200? Do you have southern exposure?

[7Wannabe5]

@Riggerjack:

Good tip. I was able to see 2008, 2011, and 2015. Pretty clear that the guy who parked his boats in the backyard let the maintenance slip. I think the realtor also had a picture from around 1930 when the tiny house shack was all alone in a field.

@Saltation:

Yeah, I was trying to run that calculation myself. Baseboard heaters would be my cheap/fast route to Certificate of Occupancy (which it seems like I am going to have to obtain due to fact house has been vacant for more than 120 days.) Annual heating days > 6000, 100 amp service, 480 square ft., some southern exposure but mostly western exposure (front of house faces west, but front door and large window faces south, and there is a large bay window on front of house.) Let's assume I will eventually get the place reasonably well sealed up and I am willing to layer up in the interim. Let's also assume that code will require heating adequate to 60 BTUS per square ft in my region, but I will only use 40 BTUS per square ft. So, roughly 30,000 BTUs/hr =roughly 9000 watts= roughly 6 standard space heaters = roughly 75 amps just for heat if cranked up to 70F in January, so not going to work without electrical upgrade/rewire unless my rough assumption about code or my math/science is incorrect. Will have to research further. Obviously, a heat pump taking the space up to even 50F and/or wood stove in the mix would seriously change the calculation.

Based on my experience camping in uninsulated sheds and pop-up campers, I know that one standard 1500 watt space heater for 100 square ft is about right for comfort in January, so given independent thermostats in 3 zones which I can adjust to average 2/3 of maximum= 40 BTUs/square ft @480 square ft -> 6 kilowatts X 24 hours X 31 days X $.13 = $580 electric bill every January => why people choose natural gas furnaces and wood stoves in Michigan. Please let me know if this calculation seems wrong for any reason.

[Alphaville]

i love the size of the house, but damn, that cost of winter utilities seems insane.

i have a sliiiightly bigger space, and an-all electric bill, washer and dryer, hot water, dishwasher, fridge, cooking, forced air heating, tv/stereo/internet/computers, and i pay $50

(ofc i'm surrounded by other apartments: strength in numbers! and we wear merino.)

once upon a time in a big drafty house, same area, i paid $450 in gas alone one january. massive shock! but it was a big drafty house with a crap gas furnace, crap gas water heater, etc. we bailed at the end of the lease.

small may not always be beautiful, but small is easier and cheaper to beautify and perfect. your little house could become ultra-efficient.

hey, so, just curious: could you sketch out the floorplan and post up for us? this is the most fun thread in the forum right now... exciting stuff!

(im assuming you have sketches with orientation/tree coverage to show the passive solar aspect?)

what's the state of the windows?

you upgrading to 200amp or trying to wing it with 100? (i have 100 in my cabin and it suxxx. well, not so much now that i don't live there anymore).

[Frita]

We have had a couple houses with electric heat. Never again! On a larger home, one’s monthly AVERAGE can be in that $500-$600 range.

In our first 1100 square foot 1911 bungalow, someone added a wood stove to help the electric heat. (As someone with allergies and subsequent respiratory problems, it was an issue.). My spouse and I insulated then dug out the basement to install a forced air furnace.

The next place was a newer 3500 square foot two-story. The previous owner installed propane gas stoves, which we inefficient, and passive solar. The latter was great for weekends but not during the week as we were working/commuting from our country place.

My favorite heat has been hot water. Now we have steam heat. Both feel water in a cool climate and add moisture to the air. Steam heat has more maintenance and new boiler units are crazy expensive, though they last 50 years. I would think neither would be an option in your dimple.

Anyway, I enjoy following along. Reading you and @Alphaville is my alternative to a HGTV show.

[Alphaville]

oh damn, you did write about the windows

The house is old and drafty, the windows are mostly old wooden or missing

yikes! single pane i assume, that's gonna be COLD.

anyway i was looking for something else and just randomly found this (i read that you have an attic?) :
http://www.walmart.com/ip/1200sqft-Radi ... /227118576
u like?

someone added a wood stove to help the electric heat. (As someone with allergies and subsequent respiratory problems, it was an issue.).

when i was new with wood stoves the chimney in my cabin got plugged up and the smoke started backing up in the middle of the night and we had to open the windows and i had to climb up to the roof in the middle of the night to whack the chimney screen and clear the creosote that had formed on it (we get mostly soft woods due to geography. even the "hard woods" have resin). then everything stank of smoke for days,

eventually i rigged an air duct for the stove and learned to burn my fires HOT to prevent creosote formation. very diy but it works better now. i wouldn't burn wood without an outisde air intake anymore: it makes the rest of the house cold.

even with this system and a clean burn we get a bunch of particulates falling around the house. oh and that nice pinyon smell everyone loves inside the house? that's gases and particulates too.

i'd love me a rocket stove in that cabin some day...

[7Wannabe5]

hey, so, just curious: could you sketch out the floorplan and post up for us? this is the most fun thread in the forum right now... exciting stuff!

(im assuming you have sketches with orientation/tree coverage to show the passive solar aspect?)

what's the state of the windows?

you upgrading to 200amp or trying to wing it with 100? (i have 100 in my cabin and it suxxx. well, not so much now that i don't live there anymore).

I'm going to take some measurements tomorrow. I have some 3D garden design software, so I'll eventually get the whole property mapped. Whether or not I take out the maple just to the south of the tiny garage/barn which is just to the south of the house will be an issue. I hate hot/humid in the summer way more than I hate cold/dry in the winter.

The attic is going to be another puzzle. At some point it was made into an "extra room" with dormer windows and a dangerous staircase. When the newest layer of roof was put on just a few years ago, the front/west facing dormer windows were vanquished and the front southwest corner porch with roof was also removed due to obvious fail based on pictures from 2015. A small deck was put in its place. Anyways, if I want the attic to be an attic moving forward, I am going to have to add insulation and consider ventilation situation. It still has windows to the south and north in which I could install a vents or fan. If I want it to be anything resembling an up to code room, that will be bigger expense, both in terms of immediate renovation costs and long term heating/cooling.

The old masonry chimney is completely crumbling and can't be used for venting natural gas furnace or wood fireplace or anything else. I'm just going to have to figure out how to patch it up enough to keep bats out etc. Code allows me to install a factory built chimney myself. Smaller units can be wall vented. I hate climbing around on roofs, but I've done it many times in the past. My big old house had 3 additions, so 4 roofs, one of which I was constantly patching until I could afford replacement. The gutters need complete replacement along with much of the fascia. If the house wasn't so tiny, this would be a huge job. The shed and garage/barn also need a lot of work, but obviously I am going to put that off until I get occupancy status for house itself.

@Frita:

Natural gas heated hydronic floor coils would be a possibility, but I think the main cost of the core unit might be prohibitive. I am now leaning towards a natural gas wall unit in the main living space and supplemental electric, maybe a portable heat pump, in the bedroom, since I like a very cold space for sleeping. Eventually I can put a tiny wood stove or fire pit in the tiny 2 room shed/barbeque/sauna/outdoor-sink/vegetable patch quadrant. The tiny shed even has a tiny porch roof, so I think that might be cute place to sit and shell peas or read Moliere. I wonder if one of the stoves that burns dried corn would be better for asthma? Downside would be I've heard that they make your whole house smell like popcorn all the time.

The most fun episode of this project is going to be figuring out what 3 or 4 colors I am going to choose to paint the made-to-look-like-a-barn plywood siding covering all 3 buildings. Currently it is stained (should have been painted or otherwise better sealed to prevent wood rot) grayish blue and brick red (which I detest.) I am leaning towards Honied White, Cypress Green, Pure White, and just a little bit of Firecracker Red, but highly likely that I will change my mind.

[Alphaville]

maple is deciduous, so why not keep? summer shade is crucial. is it too close to the house?

evergreens in the north should help your house in winter...

i used to know a neighbor who had a corn stove, and he claimed that a volume about the size of a paint can if i recall kept his house cozy all day. maybe he was boasting. and this was in a densely packed city, and there was no detectable smoke, so looks like a clean burn.

i don't know about the wisdom of burning food crops, much less keeping them where there are mice, or the price of that corn these days, but my in-laws could sure use a pellet stove in old age. there is a distinction if i remember: all corn stoves burn pellets, but not all pellet stoves burn corn, i think. the things are pricey though, so comparable to gas furnace maybe?

they also need electricity in order to fan air, they're more of a convection than a radiation setup if i recall. so if the power goes out they might not perform. but very pleasant and even heat, and won't invite termites or carry tree pests.

i don't like bent stovepipes for firewood. but pellet should work.

[7Wannabe5]

maple is deciduous, so why not keep? summer shade is crucial. is it too close to the house?

The entire roof of the garage slopes to the south, so it would be ideal for solar panels. The maple is also planted too close to the garage and is approaching the power lines.

The entire second lot is to the south of the house, but at least one tree will have to be removed for adequate sunlight. Another reason why I was considering wood stove is that I will have access to lots of free hardwood, especially since up north project includes taking out a lot of scrub oak. OTOH, pellet stoves can also burn cherry pits which are easy to get in my realm in 40 lb bags. The small amount of electric required to ignite and run fan on pellet stove could be provided by solar panels/battery bank in outage.

I’ve gone ahead and earmarked maximum of $3000 for total HVAC solution because it’s pretty clear that even medium term efficiency and/or self-sufficiency warrants better than cheapest solution. Since I am on bucket semi-retirement budget for next 6 years, saving $500 per year on utilities seems quite do-able and advisable. If I was calculating the value of the investment at 4% rule, super easy call, because $3000*.04 is only $120 per year. IOW, bankrupt Brazilian railroad rules should be put aside.

So, now I’m down to $20,000 - ($6775 (purchase price/closing costs) + $18 (books on code/renovation/cost-estimation) + $3000 (earmarked for HVAC).) = $10,207 for rest of rehab if I stick to somewhat arbitrary extreme frugal budget.

My property tax bill is going to be around $500/year until/unless appraised/assessed higher give or take for my modest income nearing senior citizen status primary residence exemptions/credits etc. So, let’s call it $50/month. That leaves $300/month for ongoing maintenance post initial rehab investment, insurance, and utilities, given also somewhat arbitrary monthly shelter budget. This number could go up if I sell my car, which I probably won’t do right away even though my new location would make it possible, because I am actually the only member of my extended family in the area who currently owns a car. Since it would be very difficult for me to otherwise obtain autonomous shelter/garden/workshop/office/laboratory space for less than $600/month, it works out to 6 * 12 * $250 = $18,000 as VERY conservative minimum (complete depreciation of all value of property by the time I am able to collect early withdrawal S.S.) during semi-retirement bucket era OR up to $250 *12 /.04 = $75,000 based on possibility that I might live another 30 or 40 years.

[Alphaville]

yeah, bankrupt railroad rules apply to low cash situations and the need to get something going right away, but if you have the funds and/or can wait for optimal installs there's no need.

i gotta ask then, what's your plan+budget for windows+insulation? seems to me without a fix for this you're going to be heating and cooling the whole atmosphere rather than just the house, regardless of energy source. the real investment might be... cutting down on energy losses from the start?

and i don't know this, but there could be some sort of federal incentive for energy retrofits if/when the next covid stimulus and/or infrastructure plan passes?--i'd keep an eye on that maybe as there may be aspects of the green new deal in it.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, I finally was able to do interior inspection, and even though much was not exactly as I was led to expect by photos and documents, I went ahead and closed on the deal. I suspect that I may have a touch of Covid brain, because the fact that I read slab foundation made me “see” slab foundation even though the oldest part of the house is clearly on a crawl space foundation and only the tiny 1970s porch like additions are on slab, and “Who poured a slab foundation in 1927?”should also have occurred to me. There was siding and snow blocking my view, but still...? Anyways, in conjunction with this revelation I discovered that the house does have some of its original wooden flooring hidden under debris, rubble, linoleum, etc. Generally, it is cuter, more charming, than I surmised, but also somewhat more decrepit.

I introduced myself to my new next door neighbor, a nice guy around my age, who told me that his daughter and his ex-wife also live on the street. I also did a bit of exploring around the city, and I am feeling good about the potential.

There are clear signs of a raccoon making a spring nest in my attic “room.” I took a photo of its little paw prints which I will post later along with some others that will likely lead many members of this forum to question my sanity in taking on this project. I will have to hire a professional to deal with this eventually, but not much point until I get the place better sealed and cleared of debris. Maybe the permaculture solution would be to just wait for the wilderness family to move out after weaning?

Okay, windows and insulation. Half of the wooden windows have broken glass. Two are missing lower sash ( might be hidden in piles of debris.) Three windows are also visibly not square, likely due to pre-1970s settlement since the 70s window trim was cut to fit, and the sash was mobile on the one I carefully tested. At least one window needs a new header due to rot. However, it does appear that the cause of the rot was mitigated by the new roof install a few years ago, but I can’t say for sure while everything is frozen. Some of the existing fiberglass batting insulation will also have to be replaced. Budget for windows and insulation YTBD, because highly dependent on how much carpentry I will undertake myself and whether or not I make some fabric covered insulation board shutters rather than buying all new windows.

Next tasks:

1) Arrange for dumpster delivery.
2) Liability insurance.
3) Buy a snow shovel ( I have a lot of sidewalk to clear due to double corner lot.)
4) Fix board over missing back door frame in hope of preventing return visit of spray paint artiste Zuka.

[Alphaville]

4) Fix board over missing back door frame in hope of preventing return visit of spray paint artiste Zuka.

best report ever--and wow, congrats!

you're having fun already huh?

[Gilberto de Piento]

I'm sure there is a ton of junk and the dumpster is necessary but you may be able to avoid the expense by piling the junk in the yard and getting rid of it one garbage pick up at a time. It would be trading time for money since making piles and getting it to fit in a trash can is extra work. The city might also not like it. It worked for me once but it wasn't a huge job.

[Frita]

Dang, this rehauling an entire place is such a project. It seems like more of a puzzle than a new build, though @Alphaville’s cabin sounds like it was similar.

Your color choices sound great! Our house is lemon yellow, cream, white, forest green, lime green, and brick red. Our place is a 1922 bungalow, a Wards Kit home, so it pops with the details. (Now if I can reconfigure the south-facing garden. With our heavy late spring and summer snows, our front trees have lost massive branches. My shade perennials have died or are massively stunted. Veggies my now be an option.) Personally, I think all houses should have a minimum of three colors but my personal minimum is four.

That fau barnwood plywood siding sucks. We had it on one house. My spouse did a cost comparison of repairing versus replacing. He found the latter was more effective for the worst parts even without factoring in his time. Once it gets wet/damaged, it swells and really sucks up the caulk/primer/paint while still looking shabby.

Between the wooden floors, dormered attic room, and porch; your place has charm to develop. It will be interesting to get to know your neighbors better and learn its history.

Happy working through your to do list for the day!

[Alphaville]

it seems to me, right now, off the top of my head, rushing to occupancy might cause a number of problems--not just competition with a pregnant raccoon

yes, turning on electric can enable the work to proceed, but if you could wait to move until the spring at least there's be less pressure to insulate and install permanent heating in a hurry.

the problem with old houses is that they're drafty and cold. hooking up heat to such a leaky building is like burning money. so some kind of energy retrofit is required starting probably from the attic.

but the problem with retrofits done wrong is that they trap moisture and invite mold.

also, is it possible that there might be mold already? first thing i'd do is a thorough mold check, given your respiratory conditions.

if there is mold, a serious cleanup will be needed before anything. professional or professional style (i don't know what it entails exactly, i know a guy who had to do it in his flooded house).

if you dodge the mold bullet it's time to plan the insulation retrofit probably starting from the attic.

so first you'll have to fix access to the attic (there's a hole in the bucket, dear liza, dear liza...)

therefore, i think moving in this winter might be unrealistic and it might be wise to plan for other options?

[EMJ]

Can you share the picture from around 1930?
Good luck with your new Dimple.

[George the original one]

I took a photo of its little paw prints which I will post later along with some others that will likely lead many members of this forum to question my sanity in taking on this project.

As if this is the first time forum members have questioned your sanity?

[Alphaville]

As if this is the first time forum members have questioned your sanity?

but crazy people are the best people!

[7Wannabe5]

Raccoon prints across roof heading towards crumbling chimney:

[7Wannabe5]

The Tiny Garage/Barn with Snow Covered Refuse Pile on Driveway:



The Second Lot AKA Future Food Forest and Intensive Vegetable Patch:



The Former Future Intensive Vegetable Patch Depending Upon Calculation of How Much These Shadows Will Be Shortened By June 21st and/or Cost of Tree Removal Services: