Daylen's Instinctual Dump

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daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Just had an insight. Music was the precursor of our universal grammar.

Music and language are included in a smallish (100 or so) list of human universals based on archeological evidence. Music has a relatively low information entropy due to its redundancy so it would require a less complicated grammar to produce.

Simple utterances could have started as zeroth-order inferences (vocal equivalent of finger pointing) then evolved into first-order utterances that referenced objects without being in their presence. Higher-order inferences may not have been prevalent until much later during chiefdom and state formation based on modern psychology (we suck at them). These first-order utterances could have then been expanded upon to represent more objects via the chaining of binary signals. 8 - 32 may have been enough for early bands (i.e. families or extended families), but tribes (i.e. set of independent bands with a shared hub such as a river) would have eventually required the ability to reference thousands of different objects or actions. This adaptive pressure would slowly overcome the cost of brain development and communication. In comparison, the vocal system would likely be a piece of cake.

In the Pinker book I read, he clearly lays out how there cannot possibly be a one-to-one correspondence between sentences and memories due to simple combinatorics. Even words have parts that are combined via a distributed tree-like rule structure. This innate tree is the universal grammar waiting to regulate a populated set of simple inferences based on cultural idiosyncrasies adopted at an early age. This software is almost entirely unique to humans and allows for rapid cultural adaptation to environmental change.

Based on this, it makes sense why music is so deeply rooted in our culture. Tribes and perhaps even bands could have started uttering low-entropy non-sense some night at the campfire out of sheer boredom (or possibly drugs). This evolved into more elaborate and synchronized efforts that would be more familiar to us today as music.

Gossip would have strengthened tribal structure and eventually co-evolved with the ability to construct higher-order references enabled by the development of a tree-like grammar linking and regulating disparate areas of the brain. Fear would synchronize tribes to fight against each other more methodically than our chimp ancestors.

Chiefdoms may have emerged along with rare fourth-order thinking which enabled the leadership necessary to regulate retribution and redistribution.
Last edited by daylen on Mon May 25, 2020 2:12 am, edited 9 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Also, redundancy in early communication channels could have served as a negative-feedback to schismogenesis allowing social cohesion to scale further. Probably in the form of rituals which are synonymous in modern times with sports, concerts, caravels, and so forth. This would contribute to the emergence of religious institutions by providing a context in which to introduce positive norms (what you can do). Negative norms (what you cannot do) may have been introduced during burial rituals. Both of which are also on the list of human universals.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

You also might want to read “The World Until Yesterday:What Can We Learn from Traditional Societies” by Jared Diamond. I haven’t finished it yet, because I didn’t find it as compelling as “Guns, Germs, and Steel”, but he explores the origins and edges of human universals in this book. Likely very post-modern of me, but whenever I encounter a list of human universals, I start brainstorming for exceptions.

A couple of the interesting borderline cultural practices he mentions in the book would be ritual murder of all widows and setting children out to fend for themselves at age 3. Of course, as he noted, these sort of cultural practices are more likely in situations of low affluence/availability of energy resources.

Along this line of thought, I might also suggest that you might consider reading some of the literature of Zola. Many of his works feature the theme of how situational affluence effects human cultural behavior at the level of romance. In narrative form, he demonstrates that because romantic behavior is highest level “expensive”, it vanishes quickly when resources become constrained. For instance, after the mine fails, the miner’s wife no longer has the energy to create a simple arrangement of flowers on the table as was previously her habit.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Thanks for the recommendations. I thought both "Collapse" and "Guns, Germs, and Steel" were both really interesting. Yeah, I had some side thoughts about how accurate the universal list is, but I figured I would first try to find an Ni path of evolutionary least resistance before I look for Ne exceptions and complications. Like trying to develop an expectation before I test for variation.

Yeah, humans can be brutal, but it makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective. I have also been considering the potential role of deception in placing adaptive pressures on the development of higher-order thinking. This could probably be modeled with iterated prisoner dilemmas.

Romance is also obviously fascinating and requires explanation. The most vital factor likely has to due with the cost of child nurturing.
Last edited by daylen on Wed May 27, 2020 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

The Fallacy of Insistent Fallacy

Fallacies are excellent tools or heuristics for rational argumentation. Yet, not all communication is best characterized by argumentation. Such a style may even be detrimental to the consideration of new ideas. Universalizing such heuristics to all communication is thus fallacious. To stay consistent, this fallacy itself should be used sparingly.

For instance: "Ad hominem" or a statement made about the agent holding a position rather than the position itself may be required if the position is supported by foundations which are not clear to both agents involved in the exchange. If the critiquing agent can see how such a position could lead to certain unwanted outcomes, then it may be justifiable to warn the agent holding this position. In times where the critiquing agent cannot clearly express such outcomes, it my be justifiable to critique the agent themselves for holding the position if this could result in them reconsidering it. Although, this can result in polarization where the agent becomes more confident in their position as a result. From the perspective of the agent holding a position, it may be wise not to adhere to closely to the meme "I have won the argument when my opposition makes an ad hominem" because the opposing agent may not presume to be engaged in argumentation (zero-sum communication).

Also, see this video for why smart people often convince themselves of crazy beliefs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWy1FBArO7c

Generally, it is not a good idea to argue too much against ideas you know are bad. It is more conducive to personal growth to argue against ideas you think are good (without going too far). Ideally, all ideas should be criticized equally to avoid polarizing effects resulting in confidence skewing. Smart people who can employ a large tool-belt of logical heuristics are susceptible to rationalization and ignorance of oppositional evidence.
Last edited by daylen on Wed May 27, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by Stahlmann »

is it like we play a game, daylen? :lol:

sid3
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by sid3 »

The only thing that I know is that I don't know anything.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Gene -- Meme -- Dream (unit)
Genome -- Memome -- Dreamome (all units of all populations of hosts that can reproduce)
Sex -- Communication -- Introspection (reproduction)
Mutation -- Misinterpretation -- Misfire (mistake in unit replication)
Organism -- Agent -- Frame (host)
Lineage -- Accent -- Value (chain of common descent)
Species -- Language -- Formalism (all populations of hosts that can reproduce together)
Ecosystem -- Institution -- Circuit (mutualistic/synergetic collection of populations)
Biome -- State -- Hemisphere (partially isolated collection of populations)

Introspection between frames within a formalism can produce frames with shuffled dreams (sometimes with misfires). Values are chains of framing techniques which make up a circuit segment. Frames contain a heap of dreams. A formalism is a network that connects values beyond the circuit they are contained in (loosely coupled relative to the circuits themselves). Finally, the two hemispheres are partially decoupled collections of formalisms. A formal bifurcation (equivalent to speciation) is an event that allows a single formalism to split in two such that their frames cannot introspect together.

This is fun.
Last edited by daylen on Wed May 27, 2020 11:05 pm, edited 6 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Now let's integrate with the symmetric-cognitive-developmental model (SCD).

inter-individual <- institutional <- interpersonal <- imperial <- impulsive <- (incorporative) -> intuitive -> independent -> imitative -> initiative -> inter-formal

The human genome allows for some individual variation to exist and this variation is more or less evenly distributed across populations. Any kind of -ism is easily avoided because individual variation is greater than population variation. The space of personalities is thus finely tuned yet there does not seem to be much correlation between the personality of a child and their parent. Genetic shuffling more or less shuffles up values in the mind. There does seem to be some heredity of personality across generations in a lineage but that can be ignored for now.

Humans are somewhat unique in the animal kingdom because we do not have a very well-defined niche. Our niche seems to be finding out what our niche is in any given generation. Our genes allow culture because memes adapt more rapidly to enviromental circumstances. The role that each agent plays in each generation is more or less random.

Consider the average composition of a band (family or extended family) with presumably five agents: two artisans, two guardians, and either an idealist or a rationalist. Corresponding to two legs, two arms, and a head. This can scale up to about 15-30. Each band can independently choose what tribe to attach to. Tribes can scale up to around 200.

Memes and dreams come into play when we consider the cognitive development of individuals within a tribe. Meme-based evolution is mediated by the extroverted functions, and dream-based evolution [in each individual] is mediated by the introverted functions. Starting at order zero (incorporative), extroverted development is directed to the left, and introverted development is directed to the right.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Joe Rogan and Kevin Hart did a podcast that provides an excellent case study. Joe is a highly developed ESFP who operates at the inter-individual order. Kevin is an ESFJ operating at the institutional order. Both are extroverts (Se and Fe) so their focus leans left on SCD. Their internal worlds (Fi and Si) must be mirrored to the right but they lack the same substance. For instance, Joe can readily offer formal explanations relating to how certain types of people operate in reality (leans Se), but it takes more time for him to describe the similarities between these formalisms using a theory of mind (leans Fi).

The podcast is mostly Kevin describing his transformation from interpersonal to institutional. His extensive elaboration goes into great detail and hints at several possible influences. Kevin's PoLR Ni is also a bit meta-comical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzx6h2sAGTU

EDIT: Se and Fi can be a bit deceptive, though. Se may perform well on Ne and Fi may empathize with why others use their functions, but this does not necessarily imply that an Se-Fi combo can deliberately use such functions.
Last edited by daylen on Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:19 am, edited 7 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Developing the functions is closely related to SCD. Functions emerge at the first-order without any regulation of their use. After the first-order, a single function takes control (or attempts to anyway). Other functions then gradually develop unconsciously until a sudden transformation (punctuated equilibrium) forces them into sustained consciousness.

0 -- no functions
1 -- all functions, none dominate
2 -- one dominate function
3 -- two dominate functions
4 -- four dominate functions
5 -- each set of four functions are mediated [somehow]

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Generalized Institutions

I correlated the first four functions with the institutional/initiative order, so next I can form a descriptive model of four generalized intuitions/initiations based on the four quadras. Each quadra is associated with four different types which share the first four functions.

Alpha -- Si-Ne, Ti-Fe
Egalitarianism: One human, one vote on all decisions. Decisions require social deliberation.

Beta -- Ni-Se, Ti-Fe
Collectivism: The collective is a higher priority than any individual in it. Decisions emerge from collective action and imitation.

Delta -- Si-Ne, Fi-Te
Corporatism: Segregation of humans with common interests into corporate groups. Corporations are of higher priority than individuals.

Gamma -- Ni-Se, Fi-Te
Meritocracy: Strict decision making hierarchy based on experimental determination of individual merit.


Obviously these are just generalized extremes. Most fourth-order humans would not actually agree that their institution should be applied universally. Though it would be hard for them to give reasons why. Nevertheless, each particular institution is some combination of these. Roughly the supreme values are.. Alpha -- Opinion, Beta -- Society, Delta -- Corporation, Gamma -- Human.
Last edited by daylen on Fri May 29, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

The relationship between institutions and initiations is mutual. Extroverted individuals operate within an institution; introverted individuals operate initiations for individuals who enter these institutions. The archetypal example is a professor who teaches finance classes as opposed to going into the financial industry. Executors do not usually make the best teachers. The initiative order may also offer constructive criticism to such institutions.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I don’t really grok the concept of “institutional” level unless something like the Adventure Library Garden is my institution.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

@7w5 It becomes more clear as it scales up to include more third-order followers. So, imagine a herd of people were looking for direction in life and wanted to endorse your lifestyle. Would you direct them on what to do and how to do it until they just did it with you? (institutional) ..or would you teach them what to expect so they could do it elsewhere? (initiative)

Either way, the institution is the full actualization of your extroverted judging and perceiving functions, and the initiation is the full actualization of your introverted judging and perceiving functions. Now, this is obviously just an abstraction itself but it can be observed in people suffering from "careerism". The president of a hospital who has no family life or hobbies and makes every decision based on how it will affect the hospitals future is an extreme example of this.

Obviously people are not typically that extreme and are not perfectly a single type/quadra so this abstraction is an imperfect yet explanatory model. Since the science is so far behind (people cannot agree on an objective definition for institution), utilization of such a model requires a personal investment in the development of your own interpretation of it.
Last edited by daylen on Sat May 30, 2020 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, it’s pretty obvious that my judgment is introverted since my spirit animal in that quadrant is the Snowy Owl. I think my perception would be in the Monkey quadrant, so more extroverted. My followers would be motivated by my enthusiasm, but disappointed if they expected full follow through exertion of authority in relationship to other adults. IOW, my management style is “Fun Mom.”

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

@7w5 Try thinking about it this way. (We are both in the same quadra so this applies to me as well.)

Our near-ideal institution would be a group of people who using Ne-Fe. The closest real life example I can think of is "The Santa Fe Institute". They seem to primarily brainstorm about complexity science with each other all day while managing to collaborate on a book every now and then. Basically an egalitarian, apolitical think-tank funded by literature(*).

Our near-ideal initiation into this institution would be teaching our Ti-Si to a group of students. Perhaps in an analytical philosophy department.

The Ne-Fe requires Ti-Si. Ti parses and generates coherent statements using Si data. Fe channels to others what is anticipated by Ne. Coherent channels require Ti and anticipation requires Si.

(*) This looks like it is changing, I just checked their website and they are educating now too. They are integrating with their own initiation. This can lead to extreme bias.. oh well.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I totally agree with your example if the Santa Fe Institute. I love their book list.

I think I might just be having some difficulty understanding this right now, because I am still traumatized from my attempt to teach middle school science. That activity demanded a lot of skills that I do not possess and full riot gear. Although, it is hard to imagine anybody at the Santa Fe institute wrapping their face in plastic wrap and smashing a computer mouse underfoot while yielding a dissecting knife they stole from the cupboard with a broken lock which I attempted to secure with multiple bungee cords.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Middle-school and high-school are more appealing to delta quadra. Alpha quadra would tend to correspond more to university level, especially when combined with research.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Here are some very rough institutional associations with each quadra.

Alpha
Higher education
Liberal arts research
Insurance
Accounting
Engineering

Beta
Public service (police, firefighters, etc.)
Military
Construction/Trades
Factories
DIY/crafting
Team sports

Delta
Lower education
Health care
Small businesses
Sales
Therapy (physical and mental)
Churches

Gamma
Trading/Finance
Analysts
Scientific research
Angel investors
Self-employment
Consultants
Art
Solo sports
Last edited by daylen on Fri May 29, 2020 9:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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