Daylen's Instinctual Dump

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jacob
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by jacob »

Would or could purposely interject randomness? Also what's the motivation/reasoning? Is the person adding randomness as a kind of ploy to hide their motives (game theory); do you mean the ability to account for uncertainty; or do you mean the propensity to attempt will things like changing the Bateson feedback loops to try out of the box stuff?

Also, are you differentiating between being capable of such feats when so instructed or the stage where it occurs to the person that this [randomness] might be a good idea? (The difference in between understanding a concept and actively using it. Passive vs active vocabulary so to speak.)

As one moves up the C's there's an increasing desire to impose increasingly complex structure on the world. True randomness is a reference point in a pattern seeking algorithm that would reveal structure. Pseudo randomness would reveal less (or fake) structure because it comes with inherent structure.
Copying picks a data point and makes it their own. It's random ex ante but not after! Comparing imposes structure because it's sorting (without memory). Compiling is a sorted list which has more structure. Calculating begins to summarize observations in results under some more advanced structure. Coordinating chooses between difference calculations. Creating chooses between different coordinations.

PS: Good choice on punting on the future game. That's too much work, even if you're Neal Stephenson. It's funny how building [fictitious future worlds] is a thing though amongst certain types. Last year cleaning up my stash in my parents' attic I found some old notes trying to write a future novel Dune-style. Pretty bad stuff. I'm no Frank Herbert. They went up in flames, literally.

daylen
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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Okay, let's see if I can interpret this accurately, but first I will split the question in three:

1. Could purposely interject randomness? No motivations or reasons required. Being capable when instructed, without knowing why.

2. Would purposely interject randomness? Motivations and reasons are very specific (such as game theoretic), but without the understanding that true randomness can be a reference point.

3. Would purposely use randomness as a reference point when revealing structure? In other words, it becomes part of the strategy as opposed to a tactic.

My intuition is that 1 corresponds to compiling, because they could choose randomly from their list (but likely wouldn't think to do it and wouldn't have a purpose). 2 would correspond to calculating, because the results could suggest to them that they are being too predictable (in the game theory scenario). I am not as sure for 3, but it seems to be creating. At the coordination step, there would be additional opportunities for using randomization as a tactic but it would not yet be a part of the overall strategy.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Like when you spin yourself around randomly in the library in order to find your next thing to read because your brain feels dull and limited and only randomness holds possibility for cracking open fresh ground?

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

That reminds me of this short clip demonstrating Ne :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwgxDvAskQU

I do something like that with my own library collection and also when opening up books to random pages/chapters. I think this kind of thing is a 2 since it is a learning tactic with consistently successful results (i.e. if the goal is to get lost in a rabbit hole for a few hours).

This is one of the design features of my library. Been down a stochastic process hole so far today. Time to shake it up a bit. :geek:

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

If we pair up introverted functions with extroverted functions (with one judging and one perceiving), then each pair can be considered a skill that builds a particular frame. For us, we are best at Ti-Ne where these rabbit holes form paths to Ti structures that can be navigated with Ne. Fe-Si probably being second and is essentially the ability to interface with people in a way that improves comfort or organizes the household.

Eh, I was going to relate this to CCCCCC for more concreteness but just got distracted. Be back later.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Ti-Ne Parsing <-> Conceptualizing .. Rule Composing
Language is parsed into tokens using a tree and are combined into rules establishing existence, uniqueness, and identity.

Ti-Se Parsing <-> Performing .. Rule Execution
Language is parsed into rules that constrain performance while executing a task.

Fi-Ne Testing <-> Conceptualizing .. Test Composing
Outcomes are delineated into wining and losing conditions that are composed into a test for valuating task performance.

Fi-Se Testing <-> Performing .. Test Execution
Tests are valuated while performing a task to achieve wining conditions.

Ni-Fe Symbolizing <-> Interfacing .. Educating
Observations are shared and metaphors are validated in a group setting.

Ni-Te Symbolizing <-> Objectifying .. Procedural Abstraction
Valid observations are delineated into objects and procedures are generated with symbols as objects.

Si-Fe Referencing <-> Interfacing .. Storytelling
Memory is referenced and reflected upon in a group setting.

Si-Te Referencing <-> Objectifying .. Procedural Reference
Procedural memory is referenced to identify object transformations.

------------------

Okay, now we have a little more to work with while describing the development of these skills in relation to CCCCCC. I might break out a spreadsheet for this.
Last edited by daylen on Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by jennypenny »

I hope you don't mind daylen, but given your last post, I thought I'd add a list of functions by type for those playing along at home. :)

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

No problem. :)

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Unsurprisingly, I grok what you posted about Ti-Ne, Si-Fe, and also Ni-Fe, although it just seems mostly like combination of the first two to me. As in, "Let's converse about a model!" ->-> "How is this classroom like a plant cell? Not?" , "Where would the Sun be if this miniature marshmallow represents the Moon?"

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Methodology Update

Here is a glimpse into my methodology for this project. I like to use color, sound, and texture to help direct Ti in a productive way. As you can see, I am working backwards from the topology in stages. In addition, I make extensive use of Wikipedia, dictionaries, thesauruses, and my library.

Image
First, I constructed a crude prototype with various keywords, historical figures, and activities at various points in the topology. I try to select points near boundaries that are already constrained and vague so that they remain fixed points. The fuzzy middle can be interpolated given these constrains. Though, I can at any point alter these fixed points if I find interpolation too hard. This stage is usually quite sloppy and makes extensive use of my own personal shorthand. For instance, MJ = 'Michael Jordan' and Asoif = 'A song of ice and fire'. Note that the people at the end do not necessary correspond to the respective type in the row, but only display an ability to create with that skill. I am not sure if Alexander the Great was an Se-Fi dominate, but he sure did command like one.

I also like to chunk together categories at this stage to complexify the boundary conditions. 8 skills are chunked into 4 quadras, and the 6 C's are chunked into 3 (amateur, competent, expert). For a little more info on quadras, refer to the personality typing thread or https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/quadras/

Image
Here are the pastels, and the usual color categories I like to work with. (white,grey,black) is usually used for meta stuff like boundaries and titles. (dark,light) X (red,green,blue) is used for categories and layering. (yellow,pale,brown) for miscellaneous.

I also like to listen to music during a brainstorming session with minimal vocals. I like a variety of paces and styles produced electronically that help me change my thinking rhythms (e.g. Air, Infected Mushroom, Seven Lions, Tycho, Com Truise, Emancipator, Bonobo, Blackmill, Odesza, Animal Collective, Tiesto, and The Glitch Mob). I like to dance, do yoga, and/or do kinesthetics and these can help me further control my thought patterns. The body can essentially serve as a base metaphor generator and allows Ni access.

Image
Image
Image

After plain paper is the poster stage where color is introduced. Content must first be filtered before this stage, and posters are often multi-day affairs that get filled in slowly.

I also like to have a side project indirectly related to the main problem. In this case it is social synchronization of the quadras. BTW, all four types in each quadra share the first four functions, hence they tend to get along or synchronize when thrown into a particular situation. They also tend to dominate certain industries.

-----------

Do not worry too much about legibility. This is mainly just a window into the Ti-Ne-Si-Ni process.
Last edited by daylen on Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by horsewoman »

For some reason I can not memorize what Ti Se Ni ... means, no matter how often I read about this stuff. It interests me, too! Considering that I have successfully memorized songs in Gaelic, Breton and Quechua (without speaking any of it, and singing it while playing the harp for extra difficulty), I really don't understand why this won't stick. Beats me.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

@horsewoman First step is to start communicating with them by copying, so just repeat what someone else says with them. Talking or Writing :)

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

This is going beyond just a descriptive exercise. It is becoming a guide on development as well and this is not something I usually mess with. I also forgot to mention an intermediate stage before color where I form several association clusters in pencil on the posters (then just draw over them later). These clusters are substantial enough in this case to engage Te. Copying CCCCCC also helps significantly with this. :P

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

A note on Ti pedagogy: Take frequent breaks, preferably where you engage Se-Ni. Also, sleep is your friend (this is true for learning in general).

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Interesting fun fact concerning the ability to tune out sensory information:

High Ti can focus very intensely for long periods of time by cancelling out unnecessary background information. For a Ti-dom like me, this can mean several hours straight without much effort (yet this is not typically efficient for studying). This allows tuning out intense pain induced by something like a burn or spicy food. Curious about how this falls off based on where Ti is in the stack (7w5? Fox?).

What is more interesting is a comparison I have made with my mom(*) which is Se-dom and lacks Ti. I can tune out strong smells temporarily with Ti (like when taking out trash) and she cannot do this at all. Though, slight sensory disruptions like an itchy tag or asymmetric pressure across limbs grows more annoying for me overtime causing me to loose sleep and does not bother her at all (this is more of an Si thing).

(*) I thought she was an INFP when first getting started (based on demeanor), but after accounting for maturity and understanding the functions better it is clear that she is an eSFP. My dad is a fairly clear-cut ESTP.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by jacob »

Stack theory suggests that it's easiest to tune out the tertiary (teenager) and inferior (toddler in the car model) functions in the shadow. For an INTJ that would be Fe and Si. This explains the remarkable ability to completely ignore other people (part of which is the famous "death stare") and a complete disregard for convention.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

One place where maturity really matters is distinguishing Se and Ne. In the case of my mom, I thought she might be an INFP with Ne, because she appears to brainstorm well with me. Yet, what I realized is that this is just because she has done more and mature Se can look a whole lot like Ne.

A quick test for this is to talk about something that the subject (person being tested) has no experience with (preferably fiction to be sure) then see if they can keep up with and reciprocate the narrative. Or if you have trouble with this due to lack of Ne then use ..

There was once a boy that had a spear, a sled, and a parrot on an island called Gotinuwa. The boy transverses a mountain of candy only to discover a camp with hostages made of corn flakes and marshmallows with candy-canes as limbs. The guards were abnormally large gingerbread men and women that would utter simple vocal signals when leaving to collect fudge from a nearby chocolate river.

One night after such signals were uttered the boy decided to ..

If they just look at you like you are crazy then they probably do not use Ne. Anyone with Ne in the first two slots can come up with non-sense like this continuously. :D
Last edited by daylen on Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

@jacob Hold on, I think you got something switched around. The tertiary and inferior in the car model for INTJ's is Fi and Se unless you are talking about the unconscious car? Typically, the PoLR or 7th function is the easiest to tune out which would be Fe for you (i.e. death stare).

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

Oh, I just realized you said 'in the shadow'. My bad.

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Re: Daylen's Instinctual Dump

Post by daylen »

The equivalence for me in the inferior shadow is Fi which is why sociopath was the best description I had of myself until MBTi. This is why a deliberate model is almost always better than no model at all even if it is not statistically verifiable (something will fill the void). Unless you become a suicide bomber or something.

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