The Education of Axel Heyst

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classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

You should do whatever best fits into the life you want to life. Saving 7 or so years of living expenses, then choosing to try and create enough cashflow to continue seems like a perfectly reasonable plan.

You will likely be your worst enemy in this process. My original plan was to save up 100K for "old age retirement", invest it and earn 3% average per year and have enough in 25-30 years. Simply earn what I need in the meantime. Now I'm FI at more than 1JAFI, and am still working. What happened? I was my own worst enemy. I second guess everything, I'm lazy and want the easy cashflow high income provides, I want to keep my options open, etc.. so I think the real key is to save money, while simultaneously trying to make a life you love. If the way you are making money makes you not enjoy life, or creates some cognitive dissonance with the life you want to lead, it's time to reconsider. Setting monetary goals alone rarely creates the "line in the sand" you think it will.

Edit: The more I think about this, the more I think I should point out that "playing mental tricks" on yourself can work to avoid some of these hang-ups. For example, when I went back to work this time I'm simply letting my net pay accumulate in my checking account and not including it in my net worth numbers. why? because, when I spend it down it doesn't really mean much to me. Your particular hang-ups might not be with money, but I encourage these mental tricks to get yourself to do things that you know, deep down, you should do, but keep finding some reason not to. :lol: if that last sentence makes any sense.

mooretrees
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by mooretrees »

I think this is fantastic. It mirrors the approach recommended by the Escape Everything author Robert Wingham. He suggests savings much less before launching but he does support having a part time job.

I can't recall your expenses if they are at one JAFI or now that you're in Serenity they should be? I think I've read Jacob say that when he quit he had many years of spending less than $7000 so he had a really solid set of habits and skills. That's the one area that I think is essential: a trust in your expenses remaining low due to a lot of time that one has maintained low expenses. I certainly need that for when I either quit or go to part time. I've read enough journals to sorta cringe at peoples expectations that they will spend less when they retire in a sorta handwaving way. I think hard data is key. Now, maybe that is my weak area so that's why I'm stressing it to you?

Also, since you're a recovering workaholic, how will you handle not working? What are your strategies to schedule your time and how will you actively decompress? That's another area I read about people struggling, is time management when they're finally retired.

I'm really excited to read more!

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:08 am
So I think the real key is to save money, while simultaneously trying to make a life you love. If the way you are making money makes you not enjoy life, or creates some cognitive dissonance with the life you want to lead, it's time to reconsider. Setting monetary goals alone rarely creates the "line in the sand" you think it will.
I feel like I'm very solidly in the "the way I'm making money makes me not enjoy life" camp, due to the stress and due to the mono-specialization of my position. I do feel like what I dream about is what I'm going to be doing once I have enough money to not have to work (/make as much), I don't dream of having enough money to not have to work (/make as much). (I feel like I may have misunderstood your point.)

And I'm a BIG fan of playing mental tricks on myself. I think I have two selves: a smart weak self and a dumb strong self. The weak self has to outsmart the dumb self to get him to do what the smart self wants to get done. Small (and yet not) example, my strong dumb self wants to watch youtube until 3am. My weak smart self isn't strong enough to overpower the dumb self at 11pm, but he is *smart* enough to download freedom.to and make youtube.com not work across all my devices between the hours of 10pm and 5am. I'll have to think about how to approach this strategy wrt semi-ERE.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

mooretrees wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:57 am
I can't recall your expenses if they are at one JAFI or now that you're in Serenity they should be? I think I've read Jacob say that when he quit he had many years of spending less than $7000 so he had a really solid set of habits and skills. That's the one area that I think is essential: a trust in your expenses remaining low due to a lot of time that one has maintained low expenses.
I totally agree with this. I wrote down today, after reading your comment, "Requirements to quit job: 1) 6 consistent months of <=1 jafi expenses. 2) [some other off-topic things...]

I just crunched my numbers for March. Here are my YTD expenses. Remember that I got in to ERE in mid January.

Image

A few expenses from March that were higher than I'd like were due to DW taking a short road trip, utilities for the apartment we vacated last month, and beginning to build our 3 month stash of food. Also keep in mind this includes all of DWs living expenses. So while I don't have a history of 1 jafi expenses, the direction of my trend is good and I anticipate hitting my 6 months of 1 jafi spending in, well, 6 months or so.
mooretrees wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:57 am
Also, since you're a recovering workaholic, how will you handle not working? What are your strategies to schedule your time and how will you actively decompress? That's another area I read about people struggling, is time management when they're finally retired.
Well, my list of post-work projects is rather long. :D I'll get it all together and make a big post at some point, but the sketch of my current thinking is this:
1. Quit job
2. Take 1-2 weeks to handle immediate post-work logistics (health care? taxes? stuff? sending equipment back in?)
3. Take 1-3 months completely off of screens, computers, digital technology, email, internet, etc. I'm going to ditch my smart phone, and maybe just carry a pre-paid nokia for emergencies. Potential activities for this period include: a long motorcycle trip, a long hike, reading, yoga, meditation, slow travel, hitchiking, traditional art (meaning, not digital) a long bicycle trip, a long climbing trip - basically just dirtbagging around.
4. Come back to home base and start buildin' stuff, working through all the projects I have in mind.

Vaikeasti
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by Vaikeasti »

I'd like to read you expand your answer on mooretrees guestion; how are you planning to avoid workaholism after retirement.
You described what you are planning to do and that you have a lot of goals for your future. What are the safety measures you make to quarantee that these projects won't consume you like a career once did?

Hypersanity reminds me of the color codes of awareness.

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by RoamingFrancis »

A bit late, but @Gin+Juice I don't think the point of community is to sacrifice yourself for the "good of the community." I recently listened to a Sharon Salzberg talk about compassion. One of the interesting points she mentioned is that in the West we tend to think of compassion as compassion for other people at our expense, while in Sanskrit and Tibetan the word for compassion includes self-compassion. I don't think prioritizing community and having healthy boundaries are mutually exclusive.

@AxelHeyst, I don't want to tell you what to do, but it sounds like your job makes you miserable. I think your plan to get out quickly is a good one.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:38 pm
I feel like I may have misunderstood your point
I feel like maybe I dont have a good point. :lol:

What I really mean is that your decisions are going to be made in a multidimensional construct. It's not as simple as; lots of money means lots of time spent working at a job I dislike, and making little money doing something I do like for only the amount of time I want to do it. You have to consider everything, and that's where it gets very easy to begin to second guess yourself. If you are like me, and tend to analyze everything, the web of goals construct becomes a bit anxiety producing in and of itself.

The cash buffer provides a bit of relief in the sense it gives you time to figure out how to structure everything, with some trial and error.

Still though, things continue to flow through my mind. Like, there is always the concern that income flow "X" is fun at first, but then begins to suck. Now I'm doing something that sucks for 1/20th the pay I used to get doing something that sucks. So, maybe, it's better to try doing that thing before I turn off the current income flow. However, then I think, well I just don't like doing income flow "X" because i'm so tired from working the other thing I hate, so let's take a break from that and see what happens... Or lets try doing a little of each, etc...etc. This is what I mean by potentially being your own worst enemy. All of can lead to analysis paralysis.

This is why I think the best starting point isn't some money based line in the sand. Rather, it's build a life you love and that is consistent with personal ethics. Then figure out how to support it in a reasonably resilient manner via semi-ERE. If the life you love doesn't have means to maintain cashflow for 1JAFI or your personal "head tax", then maybe semi-ERE isn't really an option for you, maybe you need FI before you can embark. At least you know.

horsewoman
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by horsewoman »

@c_l you make excellent points, and so does @moretrees in regards to recovering workaholics.
However, the thing is, you cannot suss out most of this things mentally before living through them. I guess that is what you mean with "line in the sand"?
To get an analysis you need data, and at the point where @AH now stands, most of it is speculation. He has given low expenses a try so he knows how that works for him and his wife.
As someone who is a little less prone to overanalyzing everything than th typical ERE forumite, I heartily approve of @AH's plan of trying this out for 2 years to collect data. With the caveat that in my case it happened exactly as @moretrees warned - I burned myself out when my various "fun projects" turned into money making endeavors, and my innate workaholic tendencies kicked in.

I see this very clearly with sewing face masks - I used to own a sewing business until I could no longer stand it - everyone is urging me to sell masks, there is so much money be made, yadda yadda. I'm tempted, but I know it would take over my life again, so I wont. I imagine this is a mild form of how an recovering alcoholic must feel.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

@horsewoman
That's a great example. Your situation is such that you don't have to do something because your semi-ERE is funded and robust. Life is set up the way you enjoy it. Now, if you were in a situation where you couldn't make your "headtax", opportunities like this come along and you almost feel obligated to take them. Even if sewing facemasks for a year is better than some other job, that doesn't mean it's what you really should do with your time.

Making decisions like that is what becomes very, very hard in semi-ERE. I think because we semi-ERE'ers are not FI, by definition. This is exacerbated when we are workaholic savers by nature. If serendipity offers a money making opportunity, when the rest of the world is suffering economically, and you are able to turn it down because you know it would not fit well into your web of goals, then you're in a great spot. If it were me, in my current situation without nursing job, I would probably have done it, because... money. Then regretted it later as the whole thing became a chore.

There is a critical balance between enough and not too much. Too much means turning down things that do fit into web of goals because you can afford to (ie wealth effect?) This balance is also heavily weighted by the resiliency in means of producing the enough.

mooretrees
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by mooretrees »

What do your expenses look like if you don't include DW's share? Is she on board with paying her own way in the near future? Seems weird to ask it, but she needs to agree to this as you've been supporting her until now. I support DH and our son and we've combined expenses since we were married. Since you've combined expenses and now you're looking to decouple, what's your game plan about that?

I believe wholeheartedly that you can get your expenses very low, you've got Serenity, DW will be supporting herself and you're highly motivated.

I'm going to expand on @classical_liberal's point. I'm coming around to the realization that the web of goals/actions is (for me) central to ERE. I'm not living this so I can't throw down concrete examples. But, what I think happens if you design a life fully in alignment with your values (caring for the earth, loving kindness to others, etc) then that life will naturally be very frugal. But the money part is sorta just a measuring tool or a last thought, it's not the purpose. I think I've read Jacob say that FI is a by-product of ERE and I can imagine that more easily now. Alright, I've thought of an example. I've been biking to the store with my son in a bike trailer for groceries. It's five miles round trip. I love biking, my son loves being in trailer, we have a fun time shopping for groceries together and then he naps on the way home. Why would I drive to the store now that I have such a fun afternoon planned with my son? Choosing the fun and incredibly cheap way of travel is easy. Now, I do still drive to the store as I'm not perfect and I work full time and am tired or don't plan well, ect. But, if I can be smarter and keep choosing the fun and cheap travel method than my expenses will reflect that change.

I think you understand this, and I might be preaching to the choir. So sorry if this isn't necessary!

I also believe that it's hard sometimes to really have the energy to work on creating that life while working full time. But, you aren't starting from scratch with passions or your values so you've done a lot of work already. So, even if you don't have this all worked out before you semi-ERE you are putting yourself in the position to figure it out. That's a fantastic place to be.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Thanks bigato, I will look in to various inflation scenarios. Also, I'd never thought about soft-ball approaching investing intelligence in the way you said. Brilliant, that might be the way in for me. I think part of the problem is it feels very inaccessible, because I don't have any background at all in any of the jargon or way of thinking, so what I dislike isn't economics, it's the feeling of repeatedly running in to a brick wall. I need to find a ladder or something.

--

As for the responses from c_L, RF, horsewoman, and mooretrees. You triggered a fit of journaling and introspection which really helped me get more precise about my past, present, and future.

The first thing is clarity about what my problem statement is.

The problem is not that I'm a workaholic, become consumed by my work, or hate my job. I think I've cured my workaholism, I have a healthy perspective on productive projects and chill time, and find the majority of my job tasks to be enjoyable in theory.

The problem is that I'm depleted, burnt out, running on life-energy fumes, defeated, and disillusioned, due to a *past* history of workaholism and suffocating relationships, and I can't (/haven't yet figured out how to) replenish myself while maintaining my current position. Two weeks in Indonesia ain't gonna cut it (tried it).

If I'm right about this, that means that the immediate solution is to a) escape the job and then b) figure out what to do with my life, in that order. The order is critical, because I've been trying to figure it out while working my job, and I've totally failed. I feel like I'm drowning, sputtering saltwater, and the only thing that really matters is to heave myself on to the boat/dock/shore, and throw up the water in my lungs, and take a damn minute to reflect on how nice it is to not be actually drowning. And then I can get up, and maybe see if there's a beach cabana somewhere nearby I can get a beer and fish tacos at. Er, I mean, sort my life out.

The past few years of my life feels like I've been trying to think my way out of my problem while actually drowning due to being so exhausted I can't tread water anymore. "Hmm, okay, here's another angle, perhaps if I end this relationship and then build a cargo trailer, that will fix issue 4.2.f, which cross-solves for--glug glug glub". Shut the fuck up and get out of the water, dumbass!

[The most worrisome aspect of this is that it's been hurting less as the years go by and I just normalize to it. I think I'm approaching a point of no return.]

Due to my burnout, my plan needs to require as little life-energy as possible, because I have so little left to give. Hence: save a ~10 year buffer as quickly as possible > quit the job within a year > recover life-energy > build out a sustainable lifestyle that I love.

At this point, I recognize that the life I build, post-recovery, could be any number of things. Perhaps I freelance my current specialty for 1-2 months a year. Perhaps people pay me to build weird solar/dirtbag stuff for them. Perhaps, having recovered my life-energy, I realize that my job was actually pretty good, and I go back to it for some amount of time and go full FI. While I have a vision for my future life, I don't think I'm gripping it too tightly.

I think that "making an income" will be an intrinsic component of "living a life I love", or at least an unavoidable outcome. This goes back to Jacob's graph in the book of life skills, with the dashed line where below the line, it costs money, and above the line people will pay you for it. I'm very sure that the life I love involves getting really good at a number of things, to the point where people will pay me for them. In other words, let's say I want to build solar stuff, vanlife stuff, learn motorcycle repair, write, and make digital art. Every single one of those things (except writing maybe), I want to be at least an 8 in terms of mastery. And let's say "people will pay you for it" happens at a 5.

I do struggle with the difference between hand-wavey "eh, I'll figure it out" plans, and Jacob's point that serendipity is an inherent part of the Renaissance lifestyle. My *plan* is that interesting yet unpredictable income-generating opportunities will arise from the churn of my post-specialist lifestyle.

Because I think that the generation of income will naturally arise from my ideal lifestyle, I don't think that I need to hit FI before quitting my job. I just need enough of a buffer, enough slack in my system, to handle the process of life-energy recovery and then the time and effort it will take to get enough of those skills to the point where people will start paying me for them. It's not like my ideal life is X, which doesn't produce any income, and I need to then also do Y, which does.

All that said, I don't know how this is going to pan out. I've only ever known a stable, decent salary (albeit in VHCOL area) where I never had to worry that much. Being in a loosely coupled income situation might trigger a relapse in my workaholism. I don't know.

I can go back and work a high-income job and hit FI if I'm wrong (unless the economy gets totally nuked). I can't go back and quit earlier and have those years of 'the life I love' in my 30's back if I stick it out.


Regarding DW:
If I remove DW's expenses from March, I'm at 0.9 jafi. Next month I'm forecasting being at 1.2 jafi with DW's expenses, 0.7 without her.

DW is extremely supportive of ERE in general, and me quitting in particular. She has actually offered, several times, to go back to work [nannying] so I can quit immediately. With the shutdowns she can't really do that at the moment, but we have discussed in the future she might take some time out of the year to do high-value nanny work, make enough to cover her ERE-level expenses for the year, and then do whatever she wants. I'm currently supporting her so she can focus on her art business. The economic implosion has put that in to question, and she can't nanny during the shutdown. So for the time being, I'm supporting her to the tune of $250/mo plus food. As the economy starts to recover, we'll be working together to sort out a lifestyle where she covers her own base expenses.

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by RoamingFrancis »

Sounds like your heart has decided and your thinking mind is trying to sort out the details. Good luck on your path.

If I could suggest a post-quitting project, maybe try doing a Vipassana retreat. It is extremely emotionally demanding, but they are free and have helped me a TON in terms of emotional intelligence. Just a suggestion, they are very difficult and I wouldn't necessarily recommend them to everyone.

Peace and good luck. Keep us updated :)

classical_Liberal
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by classical_Liberal »

Feel free to tell me to leave you alone at any point. But your comments about about your situation make me feel as if we have literally run parallel paths, at least emotionally, in many ways. Plus the social lockdown has given me more time to keep up on journals around here.
AxelHeyst wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:49 pm
As for the responses from c_L, RF, horsewoman, and mooretrees. You triggered a fit of journalingThe problem is that I'm depleted, burnt out, running on life-energy fumes, defeated, and disillusioned, due to a *past* history of workaholism and suffocating relationships, and I can't (/haven't yet figured out how to) replenish myself while maintaining my current position. Two weeks in Indonesia ain't gonna cut it (tried it).
This is a very, very important part of your situation. Acknowledgement of burnout, and determining that it is indeed your primary work that has caused you so many issues. Although, keep in mind, you still need to experiment without it to determine causation. This is EXACTLY where I was. I performed the experiment and found that it was indeed full time work that was making me miserable. After five months off, and complete burnout recovery, going back for a shorter, defined period of time, has worked out pretty good. If it wasn't for this COVID madness, I'd probably say I was pretty satisfied with the situation. Although I could have done better, see below.

Keep an open mind though, because you may find your work was only partially a causative factor. This was true for me, my attitude surrounding it sucked as well. The adjustment I made with time off really helped. I also realized there were several other lifestyle factors that helped create the burnout nightmare.

When you take your time off, which I HIGHLY encourage given the above statement, make sure to have some other activities/growth planned as the burnout begins to fade. That is the time to transition into whatever sustainable lifestyle you want to try. My big mistake here was that I kind-of, sort-of ,worked on ERE as burnout waned. I did make some strides, but then back-pedaled a bit. This was because I didn't have any real plans, I slipped back into the status quo after I felt better. It seems you are in a similar situation, some general ideas, but no real plans. I would suggest that you better define to yourself what you are going to do as the burnout fades.

2B1S was in a similar circumstance. He had his travel and lifestyle plans, and he executed. IMO that put him in a much better position than I am in. I certainly don't mean SMART goals or any such BS. Just that you maybe have a list of 3 things you want to try for lifestyle changes and sustainability, and a rough outline of how to begin once your recovery from FT work has been established. I wish so much I had done something similar and intend to do so in the next round of time off.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by Jin+Guice »

Jesus man, sorry, I've been spending too much time in the COVID threads calculating death rates, in my home studio playing with synthesizers and pissing off my neighbors and girlfriend learning to play the drums.

Allow me to reintroduce myself
My name is
J+G

I go around this forum telling people to quit their jobs.

I think you're in a unique situation. If I'm understanding this correctly, you're trying to completely 180 your life. Most people with journals here have a job that they either like (but realize they might not want to do forever) or hate and want to get out of immediately. Perhaps somewhere in between. The goal is to maintain a similar life to the one they have now, but with less money. So they save up X amount of money, which they hope will produce income for them until they die, and then they hopefully quit their jobs. I've dedicated a lot of my journal to talking about why I think this is actually not a great plan, unless you really like your job.

However, you have a unique situation and a unique opportunity. Again, if I understand you correctly, you are trying to change your life in a substantial way at the same time you're trying to leave your job and the change you're trying to enact is an ERE change. If I understand this correctly, it makes no difference how much money you save*. Why? Because you are redesigning your life from the bottom up to not rely on money.

*I mean o.k. get a year or three or whatever, which if you have a high income and spend a JAFI, should take you like 3 months?

I refuse to believe that someone as highly motivated as yourself can't find a way to make $8,000/ year. It will probably be harder to try not to make $8,000/ year. The guys sitting on 45 years of expenses aren't necessarily going back to work, but sitting on a bunch of money makes you feel different about work. This crisis has been weird for me because I literally lost 4 sources of income (which was all my sources) and I just can't be bothered to give a fuck. That's the real power of sitting on more than 2-3 years of expenses. If I only had enough for 6 months I guess I'd go stock groceries overnight two days a week or sell drugs or something. I'd rather not do that, but I could. Something @RiggerJack mentioned to me once that really stuck with me was that, in a first world country, economic poverty does not exist. I think this is true and, put another way, the true crisis we face is not that of scarcity but of abundance (or more accurately, over indulgence due to abundance. See: fat people).

If you're really serious about totally changing your life, you can pretty much do it whenever you want. With know lifestyle to maintain, you are free the burden of funding one. All you need is a small emergency fund. Many people recommend a decompression period of at least 6 months, so fund that too. If you kept the fancy job and learned to invest successfully, you would greatly reduce the chances that you would have to spend time in the future working for other people doing things you don't like. Personally, I don't find occasionally doing work I'd never chose to do to be that bad. In fact it's put me in some interesting and challenging situations. Knowing I can walk away whenever I want means that they still don't really own me. The goal of course is to become so skilled and in demand that you never have to do any work you don't like, but that's a lofty goal. I maintain that there is money everywhere and that there are a number of, at least momentarily, interesting jobs that pay $12-$25 an hour an are low stress.

wolf
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by wolf »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:04 pm
Most people with journals here have a job that they either like (but realize they might not want to do forever) or hate and want to get out of immediately. Perhaps somewhere in between. The goal is to maintain a similar life to the one they have now, but with less money. So they save up X amount of money, which they hope will produce income for them until they die, and then they hopefully quit their jobs. I've dedicated a lot of my journal to talking about why I think this is actually not a great plan, unless you really like your job.
I find that a very abstract and archetypical description. It doesn't leave room for the uniqueness on such pathes and web-of-goals, etc.
But ok. How would you describe, in the same abstract and archetypical way, the other option of a possible ERE life?

Jin+Guice
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by Jin+Guice »

@wolf:

I meant that is the general starting point not the finishing point or the point reached after introspecting about ERE for multiple years. I was trying to describe what in my mind I'd call a "top down" method where one starts as an average consumer and makes adjustments towards a more ERE lifestyle, generally, but not always achieving FIRE first (or semi-ERE with a high amount of years of expenses saved). The starting goal is early retirement with progress made from there.

The second option, what in my mind I call "bottom up" would be to attempt to incorporate your web of goals and truly reach FIRE (or some variant) as a side effect of doing work that aligns with your web of goals. Certainly a messier and riskier way to do it, but with a less expensive starting point. The starting point here is building your life around your web of goals, with the important footnote of not burning through all of your capital so that you can't acquire the resources you need.

The generalization was a generalization and certainly can't capture the uniqueness of the people who have journals here. It's not true for everyone but, I do think that the average EREer starts somewhere around middle class salary man and is initially attracted by the retire early reward rather than the more complicated and somewhat elusive higher ERE Wheaton level rewards. Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Hi Axel, wanted to chime in and share some thoughts now that I've read your entire journal.

First of all, I love your back story...it proves you are capable of extraordinary things. Second, having a SO that is on board is a huge win, often underestimated here.

I think you're in a really good spot to execute whatever plan you decide to roll with. My $.02 is that budgeting is sort of like dieting, there may be optimal diets in theory, but the one you can stick to long term will often be the *best* for YOU. You've clearly been able to slash expenses in the past, and having your current housing hack is going to be instrumental in living below 1 JAFI. I would consider trying that over a longer period of time before deciding it's something you definitely want to do. It's also worth noting that there have been many cases, both here in ERE land, as well as other FIRE communities where wants and desires changed due to some unforeseen circumstance, where living on a budget of $X no longer became desirable.

You're creating a life that doesn't rely on drawing down assets, which is great. I would echo c_L's sentiment regarding building up those income streams while still maintaining your current income. You should be able to get a feel for how feasible your plan is before you pull the bandaid off completely.

Looking forward to following along! I'm jealous of those who already figured out a way to make some income after leaving their FT J-O-B. That's the missing piece for me right now......

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

RoamingFrancis wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:00 pm
If I could suggest a post-quitting project, maybe try doing a Vipassana retreat.
It's now on the list, thank you. :D I don't think I should do it immediately after I quit, but I think I will plan it for some time within 6 months of quitting.
classical_Liberal wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:32 pm
Feel free to tell me to leave you alone at any point. But your comments about about your situation make me feel as if we have literally run parallel paths, at least emotionally, in many ways.
I always look forward to your thoughtful posts in my journal (and elsewhere), particularly because as you say we have similar circumstances. I find your thoughts incredibly valuable.
c_L wrote:Keep an open mind though, because you may find your work was only partially a causative factor. This was true for me, my attitude surrounding it sucked as well. The adjustment I made with time off really helped. I also realized there were several other lifestyle factors that helped create the burnout nightmare.

When you take your time off, which I HIGHLY encourage given the above statement, make sure to have some other activities/growth planned as the burnout begins to fade. ... I didn't have any real plans, I slipped back into the status quo after I felt better. It seems you are in a similar situation, some general ideas, but no real plans. I would suggest that you better define to yourself what you are going to do as the burnout fades.
Yes. I'm concerned about "the grass is greener over there" syndrome, and the whole "wherever you go, there you are" dynamic. I, like so many people, convince myself that "I'll be happy once I've _____". My own filled-in-blanks have been: gotten a girlfriend, left my girlfriend, graduated college, got a job, left my job, started doing [my specialization], got out of debt, moved to a big sexy city, moved away from the horrible dirty city, become a remote worker/digital nomad, climbed trad, climbed 10a trad, climbed 10a trad that was put up in the 80's by a total nutjob who was on shrooms at the time....

That said, the common denominator throughout my mental health journey since 2004 has been a technically focused, computer based, medium-to-high stress occupation that consumed no less than 40 hours a week and often as much as 80+ of my life. That is the one variable I haven't played with, and I suspect that it's a systemic issue that a root cause of my inability to consistently stick with mental health relief mechanisms.

Your point to plan my post-work life is very well taken. I spent the last several days getting even more precise about it, and I'll post it shortly for feedback.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:04 pm
If I understand this correctly, it makes no difference how much money you save*. Why? Because you are redesigning your life from the bottom up to not rely on money.

*I mean o.k. get a year or three or whatever, which if you have a high income and spend a JAFI, should take you like 3 months?

I refuse to believe that someone as highly motivated as yourself can't find a way to make $8,000/ year. ... If you're really serious about totally changing your life, you can pretty much do it whenever you want.
Haha hey @JnG, thanks for dropping by. I basically agree with everything you said - that because of how I want my life to work, I could pretty much quit right now. In fact, if I got fired/my company imploded tomorrow, I'd probably be relieved and begin now. But, I'm not going to pull the trigger right now. These are my rationalizations:
  • I just hired a guy. I want to get the team set up well enough that I can hand the keys over to him on my way out (if he's interested in the job), and he can cruise from there. If I quit within 2-3 months, I'd probably be leaving him high and dry. That said, if I hustled, 6 months might be enough time for him to get established.
  • I'm still supporting DW. I'd quite like to see her making at least a bit more before I pull the plug. I have no doubt that once the economy comes out from under the bed, she'll be fine.
  • I'd like to ride out the economic uncertainty at least until it seems pretty clear all of civilization isn't going to collapse or go in to some crazy hyperinflation doomsday scenario.
  • I want the confidence of having 6 months of <1 jafi spending under my belt, as others have encouraged.
  • Not only have I never had multiple income streams or a side hustle, I've never even switched jobs within my high-earner/white collar life. I've worked for the same company since 2008. So there's definitely an emotional level of uncertainty about my ability to make money. I intellectually believe in myself, but I'm going to need to prove to myself I can do it in order to build gut-level confidence in myself. And I want "plenty" of buffer to figure it out.
Hmm. It seems I've listed some reasons for riding out another 6 months or so, but not 12. Truth be told the whole "one year" thing was kind of arbitrary, as I was just targeting the month I turn 35. It was not (to @c_L's point) a monetary line in the sand, really. 12 months would be about $90k, 6 months would be about $65k. If I'm right about the lifestyle I want and am able to execute on it, that difference is meaningless as you said.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Axel Heyst's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:58 am
You've clearly been able to slash expenses in the past, and having your current housing hack is going to be instrumental in living below 1 JAFI. I would consider trying that over a longer period of time before deciding it's something you definitely want to do. It's also worth noting that there have been many cases, both here in ERE land, as well as other FIRE communities where wants and desires changed due to some unforeseen circumstance, where living on a budget of $X no longer became desirable.

You're creating a life that doesn't rely on drawing down assets, which is great. I would echo c_L's sentiment regarding building up those income streams while still maintaining your current income. You should be able to get a feel for how feasible your plan is before you pull the bandaid off completely.
Hi 2b1s! Happy to see you comment here, I got a lot out of your journal (although I'm behind at the moment!)

A couple points: I've lived in Serenity full-time for coming up on 2 years now, except for (3 months) + (2 months) breaks. Those breaks were to live in a house, for various reasons. Short story = I disliked those times spent in a house. I'm pretty committed to the alt housing shtick. :D

I agree that proving the viability of my side hustle income streams while still working my day job is a good idea. And I'm not going to do it. I'm too far burnt out to maintain that level of hustle. Honestly it sounds miserable - not inherently, it sounds miserable when I consider my current state of available life-energy.

For example: yesterday I had a frustrating day at work. After finally closing my laptop, I grabbed my jacket and went for a walk. I hoovered a cigarette like a dying man (I average about one pack every 9 months). The setting sun bathed the mountains in a pinkish glow, and it was beautiful. I started crying, like that angry choking style of crying, and then picked up a head-sized rock and spent about five minutes smashing another rock with it and throwing it around the desert, like that scene in Fight Club where Ed Norton pulverized the handsome albino guy's face because he 'wanted to destroy something beautiful'. I'm not well.

[I'm also going to be okay, just to be clear. Part of why I'm writing out my mental state like this is in order to intentionally increase the volume of the Dissatisfaction-Vision-Plan volume that defines one's amount of Will to change. I'm pumping up my Dissatisfaction variable as much as possible. Jacob has a post on it.]

And honestly, I believe that I can figure out a way to make money after I quit. I have a lot of ideas, some of which have already been tested, but I haven't said "yes" to because I don't have time / the idea of more computer work on top of normal work is unappealing, to put it mildly.

While I'm projecting a CoL of <=1 jafi, my plan isn't to be on a fixed income. It's to be on a variable income that I have a high degree of agency over. So if I find I really need about 1.5 jafi because of materials for my dirtbag build projects... I can adjust.

We'll see. Thanks for the comments!

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