3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
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ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:45 am
In the moment, 55 year old me became emotionally entwined with 13 year old me
I feel this so hard. My parents aren't quite 80, but hoping they will change is similarly nonsensical.

Lining up my ducks in a row, now. I do need to move out, and because I am not quite there with the stash for complete FI, I need to find a job. When that will be possible, I don't know. But job or not, I am undecided on location, so until I sort myself out and all severance etc. from old job goes through, I'll stay put see how I can eke out some time for myself for the time being. A part of me literally does not allow me to spend. Moving out would be spending when I don't have to, thus, lizard brain says no. Same lizard brain that said, no money, must job. Shared idea here is, you're not allowed to be cute and you're not allowed to be a snowflake and you must keep your nose to the grindstone. Don't like working? Too bad, it brings money. Don't like living with parents? Too bad, the alternative takes money, get over yourself.

This is from growing up in multigenerational poverty, that much is clear. When you're poor, there's no jobs, and 3 families must live in one apartment, you make do, you keep grinding, you get over yourself, and you don't try to be precious asking what kind of life you want or what kind of job you'd be fulfilled to do. You do what you gotta do. Thus when I was 20 and I started wondering what would make me happy, my father shouted at me to quit it, get in line, and get a job. We weren't dirt-poor any more, but this sort of thing sticks. It stuck with him even when he was no longer poor, and it stuck with me because of my childhood and his shouting. It's hard to unwind that mentality, even if you actually have options.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Btw, thank you everyone for your understanding and patience when you're probably going, JESUS FUCK DUDE MOVE THE FUCK OUT ALREADY :lol:

7Wannabe5
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, maybe you just need to decide for yourself to what extent money is security vs. freedom?

Also, and this may be more me than you, I have come to the conclusion that there can be more than a bit of hubris involved in valuing “sticking it out.”

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Nah, it's not a matter of valuing it over here, it's a matter of compulsion. Lizard brain thinks not sticking it is no when you can stick it out and not spend money.

Jason

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Jason »

ertyu wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:28 pm
JESUS FUCK DUDE MOVE THE FUCK OUT ALREADY
Well, His father really is God. Where you're just treating your's like he is.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

I really am not doing it deliberately. He impacts me psychologically even when rationally I know he shouldn't. I was thinking today about what 7w5 shared about her 79 y/o mother, and it seems like distance in and of itself doesn't really solve this stuff. But something happened when 7w5 found herself yet again triggered by her mother's tidiness habits (or lack thereof). 7w5 was an adult: in the moment, she was hooked, but the moment of "yes, this, this is the frustration and anger my 13 y/o self always felt" is imo significant. She held her 13 y/o self's frustrations and her 55 y/o self's frustrations, knowledge, and accumulated experience in her mind at once, and in so doing, held 13 y/o 7w5's experiences a little differently and more consciously. She saw them as valid but also realized that this is who her mother was at 39 and this is who she is at 79 and she isn't changing. 7w5 left home after, but 13 y/o's emotions and experiences were integrated a little differently. So putting physical distance between self and mother was different this time around and resulted in actual psychological separation. I hope for more of this for myself, but it's a crap shoot: sometimes it will happen, sometimes I will just be re-living the past in the present and getting "re-traumatized" (if one can use such a strong word) instead of reprocessing.

In the interest of sounding a bit less tortured and documenting some positive developments, I have really enjoyed being fired because it has decoupled purposeful activity from income earning activity. I was trying to solve yet another difficult sudoku today, and it struck me that i've been at it for an hour and I am really enjoying myself -- even though I am not making speedy progress towards a solution nor am I likely to ever become a good enough solver to turn it into an income-generating gig. And that this does not matter in the slightest. I was just enjoying myself trying to figure out the puzzle. Completely meaningless in salaryman land, but engaging to me. I patted myself on the back for this positive transformation. Then realized that trying to repair my ancient iPod is the same - meaningless when measured with currency units, but somehow inherently satisfying. This feels like a really significant positive psychological development. For reference, I left my job mid-February and it's now mid-May. So it took approximately 3 months for it to begin, but I am really happy and thankful it did. Here's to hoping for more of the same in the future.
Last edited by ertyu on Wed May 27, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Smashter
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Smashter »

I applaud your effort to focus on some of the positives, because your situation sounds incredibly stressful. I'm glad you're finding satisfaction in those activities. I felt similarly when I repaired my ancient MacBook Pro.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

@Smashter, thanks, man. Believe it or not, things as they currently are still feel way way better than when I worked full time last year.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Another observation: I am yet to be magically cured of my addiction to coffee or my bad habit of self-medicating crap emotional states via Milka. Stopping work did make me way way less likely to order take-out or eat out; I have vitually not done that since I quit working. But sugar and caffeine are sticking around.

Conversely, not working has not magically made me gung-ho about exercising. So that story where one is "too tired to exercise" due to full-time work doesn't automatically reverse.

These remaining bad habits look like they will take conscious work. Sugar pisses me off the most. Talk about not just a useless but an actively harmful habit, too.

Hail_Diogenes
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Hail_Diogenes »

Hey man,

Just dropping by to say that I relate to your story more than any of the other journals I've found so far. I know what you mean about ditching bad habits after quitting a toxic job. I developed a daily drinking habit for a bit. It helped with the dread.

I just finished a 30 day no booze challenge. Feeling much better and the urges have gone away. The dread is still there but the urge to block it with alcohol has reduced significantly.

Maybe a x # of day challenge could help? I dunno.

Another thought that your post reminded me of, I'm trying to avoid this feeling that my life is on hold until I hit my ERE goal. I don't know if that's how you feel/felt, but your earlier journal posts made me think about it. I think I've been in a dulled stated the past few years. Just checking boxes while I hunker down and wait to live a good life later on. I'm trying to get out of this future-oeriented trap and enjoy the present even though, for the most part, it sucks lol.

Another thing about working out, I totally get that too. I struggled with gym anxiety for the first few years as I was learning how to work out. I hated that people could see the minuscule amount of weight I was moving lol. Honestly, it still comes and goes.

I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned, but have you looked into bodyweight/dumbbell routines? You can easily do those in your room/in a park/under a bridge/anywhere out of sight.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

@mooretrees, am considering mushrooms. But I am too afraid that because I am in a bad mental state to start with, I will have a bad trip. If I do them, ideally I would like to be around a person I trust for the duration of the trip, and there doesn't seem to be such a person around me. Though on the positive side, now that I am in my home town, I can connect with people who I think might know people, etc. My chances of obtaining mushrooms are greater here than in other countries.

@slowtraveler: am seriously considering this plan. Work 2 years, save 15k, travel for a year, work 2 more. Not right now with corona, but it's defintiely something which appeals, at least to try out.

@HD: as I said on your journal, serious kudos for getting the booze under control. That shit is no joke if it is your drug. Inspired by that, I'm on day 2 of a 30-day sugar free trial. What this means: chocolate and etc. packaged sweets are out, I will no longer spoon honey straight out the jar, I will not eat white bread (sticking to very dark/wholegrain/etc) and rice/pasta. Potatoes are in, as I don't eat too much of those anyways and when I do they're likelier to be baked than fried. Undecided on fruit. Doing a lot of, "is a bar of chocolate what would make you happiest to spend that euro on? ok if it is, but somehow i doubt it. Two apples sound way better for that money anyways" in my head. I think I will have a comparatively easy time going, "want sweets? eat fruit for the equivalent cost." Wondering if there will be any difference in how I feel after a month.

In other news, yesterday I encountered a former classmate who was on his way to hang out with a group of other former classmates + their acquaintances, and who invited me to join. I asked the group for suggestions about what I could do in my home town with my knowledge and skills. Pretty much everyone seemed pitying and the consensus seemed to be, well what can we tell you if you're not in IT and you don't even have a second language (I am only fluent in English). Felt pretty ashamed there, to be looked down on and also, to know that they are right and I can't magically walk into a professional job here and I'm not really immediately good for anything. People questioned why I haven't learned this, or learned that yet. The attitude seemed to be, "well, you are loser enough to not have skilled yourself, what do you want from us." Sharing mainly because of how ashamed I felt. Even with reading Alain de Botton and ERE indoctrination, the shame remains - if I am not professional employee material, I am unworthy and less than. Former classmates displayed lots of signals of wealth, too - brand of cigarettes they smoke, buying the €2.50 beer instead of the €1.20 beer, brand sneakers to my flip-flops, brand sportswear and jeans to my second hand store wear. I would never think that a person who doesn't wear brand names and smoke brand cigarettes is inferior, but in the company of people who do, I feel ashamed and less-than. Definitely something to work on here. There's definitely a dissonance between my values and my automatic emotional reactions, and I'd much rather resolve that in the values' favor. If I ask myself, "is it worth it to you to work 2 or 3 more years so you, too, can wear Under Armor and feel like you fit in," the answer is, hell no. And yet. Salaryman reeducation continues. [I think a lot of this might be resolved by surrounding myself with like-minded people who also value freedom over outward polish. Definitely something to look out for].

Update: went for a walk to think on this, and here is what I came up with

1. Inherently, I do not believe I am of low worth. I believe I am of normal worth, if there is such a thing. Given that, there are two possibilities:
1a. At least some of the people I had beers with yesterday really did look down on me, and I picked up on that. Or,
1b. The people I had beers with did not look down on me, I was projecting my inferiority issues on them.

It is quite possible 1a. is true. After all, what kind of person goes out of their way to make sure they buy the expensive cigarettes, the most expensive beer, and running shoes that have clearly visible branding (and thus may as well have a price tag attached)? It's a person who thinks that presenting himself thus has value and deserves special recognition. And that a person who isn't decked out in wealth-signaling ways thus does not deserve as much respect. It is quite possible that some of the people I was with did believe I was less-than and did in fact enjoy the opportunity to feel superior (especially if they may have envied me in the past as I was one of the first members of my high school class to get scholarships to study abroad).

So why am I letting it get to me? I guess I am hurt by their treatment, as we used to be actual friends who saw each other as equals and hung out together when we were young. I really need to beat it into my thick head that the fact that someone treats me with disrespect has zero actual connection to how much respect I actually deserve. This applies to parents as well as former classmates, but may apply at work, too, should I decide to get a job again (which looks increasingly likely).

1b. My own issues of inferiority - I have touched on this before - my belief that my value as a professional employee confers value on me as a person (or, in this case, my failure to know more than one major EU language in addition to English + my failure to work in IT or to want to work hard so I can eventually work in IT detracts from my value as a person). This is indeed my shit, and it's shit that's related to family, parents, and upbringing. My achievements have been taken as a matter of course and not praised or pointed out, whereas the ways in which I fail to reach my parents' ideal (married, large apartment, car, lucrative profession which allows me to make lots of money close to home) have been pointed out at length. Of course I believe that everyone I meet is only ever focused on noticing my many professional failings and silently treating me a failure - interaction with parents has taught me that this is what people do. <= incidentally this here seems to be the link between my family issues and me figuring out ERE for myself.

This remains work in progress. I would be really happy if, in addition to being a bit healthier at the end of this year, I have processed and grown past all this shit as well. It is psychological junk - completely useless and serving function exactly akin to a hoarder's clutter: to serve as breeding ground for roaches and impend one's progress through your space.

Peanut
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Peanut »

I'd like to share with you a couple useful lessons I've learned from friends over the years, maybe the most useful.
--Other people spend a lot less time thinking about you than you imagine they do.
--Moving from an Aussenorientierung (externally positioned) mindset to an Innenorientierung (internally positioned, what you call values) mindset frees one from a lot of self-doubt.
IOW, 1a or 1b doesn't matter and is not worth thinking about. Transcend the dialectic.

horsewoman
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by horsewoman »

Adding to peanuts comment, there has been done am interesting study about that, the so-called "Barry Manilow" experiment:

http://blog.learntolive.com/spotlight-e ... -relevant/

I've read about this years ago in a book by Prof. Wiseman and I found it very comforting in a lot of situations since then.

Also I've had a similar experience like you (meeting former friends back home), but I found that they didn't even remember most of the things I had built up to really shameful incidents in my mind. And if they did remember, they where most concerned with their own parts, not with what I had done.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

To me, though, this is a suboptimal approach. "Other people probably don't even think about you," I agree with. I very sincerely doubt that people sit around sipping coffee and contemplating my many failings. But people do enjoy appraising someone as inferior to themselves because it gives them a sense that they are doing well (I doubt it's even personal - their low evaluation of me is just a by-product of them getting to feel good, much like Jeff Bezos' doesn't deliberately set out to be inhumane to a particular warehouse worker for the sake of it, it's just a byproduct of him maximizing his own wealth).

Rather, what I am hoping to internalize here is, "it's inevitable that at times i will be seen as less-than, but as i lead my life according to my own values and am satisfied with my choices, this has nothing to do with me." Thinking, "they don't think about you anyway" still leaves the door open for, "but if and when they *do* think about you, this is still horrible."

Hail_Diogenes
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Hail_Diogenes »

ertyu wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:33 am

Fuck yeah dude! glad to hear you cut the sweets. That's a tough one to kick. Love your idea about subbing out the craving for healthier options. I have a couple buddies who went keto. They said the sweets cravings were the worst part of the transition. One thing the helped them was switching to alternative sweeteners in there interim. That way if you cave, you still avoided the carbs.

About the former classmates - I've been there. I live in a city right now, but I'm originally from a small town where the men usually end up in jail or in the military. The few who are "successful" (by normie definition of success) usually inherit family businesses of some sort. I've felt the feeling you described on my most recent trip home.

There's also a ton of status signalling in my current city. It used to bother me so much. I used to be so embarrassed to drive a date back to my moldy apartment in my noisy old car, while my buddies all lived in condos downtown and drove shiny new leased cars.

Here's a quick story, I have a hundred examples like this one, but this dynamic is what helped me overcome this feeling of inferiority and start to pity showoffs instead of envy them. (not saying you envy your old classmates, just saying I did).

Right before quarantine, my girl told me that she bumped into her doctor at a bar and he kept trying to get her to leave with him. He mentioned the type of car he drove several times, as if that would somehow close the deal (I'm sure this works for him every now and then).

I've started to take pride in being the type of guy who doesn't need to pull shit like that to have friends or a dating life. I sleep on a mattress on the floor and I haven't bought new clothes in four-ish years. My car is old as fuck and I don't care. I find people who use shiny things to attract people, friends or otherwise, pathetic. I honestly feel sorry for them.

Also, I recently caved and tried to do the downtown condo life. Just to get a taste for it before I left this city forever. Wasn't worth it. I just ended up surrounded by people I couldn't relate to. I only lasted 5 months before I broke my lease. Life is starting to make a lot more sense now that I'm grounded in my values.

Just my .02

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Lemur
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Lemur »

@ertyu

I find it intriguing then when you look at other peoples problems it looks so easy to resolve...(but we often spend years if not decades failing to resolve our own most deep rooted issues).

Like yours to me appears easy to solve...

1.) Move out of your parents place...its obvious to me it is the 'environment'. I had similar issues growing up and basically why I joined the military at 18. I left one prison to join...another one? This one actually paid for college though lol.

2.) Don't put so much emphasis on what other people think about you. Okay sorry... ("Thanks Lemur I'm cured"). But I don't know how to write this out intelligently. I used to have this problem...but now I don't and i don't know what it took to get me to that point. It could be because I am lately apathetic to things lately...overburdened / overstimulated by the news, COVID, riots, work stress, etc. that I reached an apathetic point of not caring what other people think about me. But I don't think that is it. I've been like this for a few years now. It boils down to asking myself why should I care with so much what people think about me when their is just so much going on in this world and (2) don't these people have better things to do then think about me? If they do spend more then a few minuets thinking about me then man they must be sad in their own lives or something idk... I'm not that important! Unless I'm making a positive impact on your life, I'm another drone not worth wasting brain cells thinking about. And I'm cool with that.

Frita
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Frita »

Just asking, is it your business what these old schoolmates and their friends think of you? I understand that you asked so they answered from their point-of-view. It sounds like later you noticed that they weren’t in the same space as you. I am not comparing you to them or judging, just noticing that status-oriented people need a group to emulate and others to look down on.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

So I am going to drag this entire post here for future reference don't mind me
basuragomi wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:51 am
@ertyu:

I think people give that advice because the motivation that drives a habitual exerciser to exercise is so different from a couch potato. Habitual exercisers have trained themselves to the point that that the exercise itself is inherently rewarding, and can't remember what it's like to be on the other side of the cusp. That advice is common because those strategies work very well for someone already trained to enjoy exercise, but your brain isn't trained and life isn't arranged for it to work for you.

Theory:
It's 100% operant conditioning. First, I'm sure you maintain some kind of habit. At a minimum checking this forum counts as one. So you're obviously amenable to some kind of scheduled positive reinforcement.

Basic tools:
A big part of conditioning is figuring out what works as positive reinforcement and what triggers punishment. Positive reinforcement is easy: sleep, caffeine, novelty, runner's high, sugar, sex, money, positive social contact, performative displays. Lots to work with, our society has the pursuit of happiness down to a science.

Punishment is much trickier. The vast majority of punishment here is internally generated - i.e. stressing yourself out over perceived social judgement, or failing to compare to some imaginary standard. This is what you need to very carefully manage.

With respect to external punishment: Pain is another externally generated punishment. Not much you can do about that beyond avoiding risky behaviours. Public shaming does happen but it's pretty rare, and you've been trained in a hundred coping methods - the most obvious one is dismissing low-status people, and being fit is in itself a status symbol. That's a self-reinforcing coping system. I'm sure you can think of many others.

Method:

1) Start with a neutral or positively-associated context.

Since most punishment is internally generated and you've hated exercising before, you probably need to start by avoiding whatever negative associations you've built up with exercise. Certain clothing, equipment, places, people, whatever. Don't try to overcome them yet, just avoid them. You can shape your behaviour to be more efficient after it's become automatic. Exercise in casual clothes. Get a shitty beater bike. Work out on a beach rather than a gym. Tell your neighbour pushing you to become a gym buddy to fuck off. Whatever it is, you need to start with a context that at a minimum doesn't prime your brain for punishment. I started getting fit by running in my neighbourhood, but seeing my relatives was triggering social anxiety, then just running in the neighbourhood started triggering anxiety as well, and I stopped. Going to a gym and running there worked way better - my brain was still generalizing the anxiety to the gym, but the level of fear was not nearly as high since it was an entirely novel environment. I later shaped my behaviour back to being able to run in public without any issues.

2) Always pair exercise with a reward and ensure that reward is only available with exercise. Remove the means to obtain the reward otherwise.

When I started weightlifting I put my favourite songs on my mp3 player and removed them from my home library, so that it was the only way to get good music. When I later moved to this area I didn't even have a fixed internet connection at home, the gym was literally my only option to stream videos. I would watch action films and comedies, things designed to evoke a strong positive emotional response. I so strongly associate films with cardio now that I can't bear sitting through a whole movie anymore. Now I only watch films or TV shows at the gym. After my sugar fast, I started using candy as a home workout reward, and only consuming it in that context. The association eventually gets strong enough that the reward minus the exercise seems wrong - enhancing your natural contrafreeloading instinct. At that point you can reintroduce the reward back into the rest of your life.

3) Set up your reward system so that your rewards reinforce each other.

Luckily exercise is a strong mood enhancer, so long-term you can start seeking it out for itself. In the meantime you can make everything surrounding exercise rewarding as well. Basically, develop rituals oriented around exercise. Performing the ritual should itself be rewarding, and ideally head off negative triggers as well.

Ideas cribbed from a post I put in @Hristo Botev's journal:
- Clear your schedule at the same time every week for exercise. Force people to defer to your exercise time.
- Sleep at a certain time or sleep in only before/on exercise days.
- Eat rewarding foods or extra amounts exclusively before/after exercise - e.g. Every year I do a 160 km bike ride and 95% of what I end up looking forward to on the ride proper is a burger and ice cream from this one specific restaurant. Doesn't matter that I can have ice cream any time, I've built that strong an association with the reward.
- Prepare music or podcast playlists exclusively for your exercise.
- Lay out or change into exercise clothes.
- Turn off phones, activate blocking software, or unplug monitors the night before.
- Visualize what specific routes/lifts/activities you will do.
- Solicit praise from people you respect, i.e. exactly what Facebook is made for.

4) Shape your behaviour.

Once you have enough positive reinforcement flowing in, you can start extinction of undesired associations. Try to introduce a negative trigger only in a strongly positive context. If you hate the gym, go during an empty time, bring candy or focus on only using a piece of equipment you already use elsewhere.

Stoicism:

At the core of it, exercise is not an inherently negative experience. Being tired doesn't feel bad if you have the freedom to rest. Compared to other pastimes, you can experience basically infinite novelty, set and achieve constantly increasing goals, and get a strong chemical reward on top of it all. Many social systems reward both being in shape and exercising. On a conceptual level, it should be much easier to create a system where your exercise is rewarded at practically every level than it is to do something much more heretical like ERE.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Interim update: I went searching for a place to rent, and it appears that letting agents have flooded the internet with fake ads. When you show up at their office, it's "Oh, oops, seems that just got rented out" + upsale attempt. After making it clear that I will not be upsold, but rather wish to look at properties similar to the ones advertised, at prices similar to the ones advertised, I get a *look* and told to get lost.

Scumbags.

ertyu
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Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

I want a job. I have sent out CVs, just in case, with the hope that borders may be reopened. I am sick and tired of this stress. Money will solve all my problems. So I want money, and I want a job.

Salaryman reeducation failed, this time around.

If I do get hired and begin work, expect me to come wailing and complaining about how much it sucks and how much I hate it and how the only possible thing that would make me happy is to stop working :lol:

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