Experimenting with Life

Where are you and where are you going?
JCD
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Experimenting with Life

Post by JCD »

Let me start by saying I've been reading ERE for about 4 years now. I have been inspired by characters here such as jennypenny, IlliniDave, BRUTE, Fish, jacob, Ego, 7Wannabe5 and many others. You all always seem to have smart things to say and have helped guide me. I really want to say thank you to you all. During those years I've been working on improving myself and building out my own philosophy and web of goals. I could have participated in the forums, but I didn't feel I had anything worth saying, particularly in the Fishian K-Post (as in "r- vs. K- selection") content world view.

At present I am purposefully homeless. I have seen few people discuss that sort of lifestyle in the forums. I have been trying to write a blog, inspired by Jacob's own efforts to document his life. I don't want to violate the "no links to services or products" policy, so I will copy and paste the contents of what I wrote here. I will include a link at the end as a citation, but it will be a literal copy, sans some pictures and links, so you need not visit. If that still violates policy, please just delete out the link. I've just started my writing, so all pointers, comments and questions are welcome. Since I am homeless, my internet access and time available for writing are sometimes short. Please know I will get back to you, eventually.

https://about98percentthere.blogspot.co ... -home.html

[Moderator - Replaced cut&paste of blog post with link to blog post. I'll let the link stand. Generally, regular posters are free to post links to their blogs or websites insofar it's relevant to an ongoing thread. It's drive-by linking or crossposting (google doesn't like it) where people register mainly to drive traffic that is against the rules.]

Dream of Freedom
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by Dream of Freedom »

Nice. I'm pretty sure you can add a link to your website in your user profile even if you don't directly advertise for it. People do look at them.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

I'll be following along, as I plan a very similar lifestyle that would have me split my time between Europe, SE Asia, and occasionally the USA.

I do have to say your forum/blog post title is a bit miss-leading. Doing short term (30+day) Airbnb's while moving between a few EU countries for a (few?) years isn't exactly homelessness. Just my opinion, but if you consider this homelessness, then many are doing this sort of thing and calling it a "nomadic" lifestyle.
Last edited by 2Birds1Stone on Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

JCD
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by JCD »

I would say that a house is not a home. One aspect of a home in my opinion is a feeling of safety and security. Moving from place to place, makes one homeless, even if not houseless. I agree I'm not using the common verbiage, however I do experience many of the same problems a deeply homeless person experiences. Living out of a car is not a simple life. I recall reading one person who hiked the Appalachia for 6 months on this forum. They were houseless, however, at the end it seemed that they had a place to go back to, a home. We don't really have such a place, we literally sold our home. Furthermore, our home (area) was changing as more people were moving in. That is to say, if we could buy our home back in a year, it wouldn't be home. These are different levels of loss.

I'm trying to really dig deep into what each level means. I think nomad is a perfectly good term, however, nomads usually have a particular 'area' that is their homeland. Even the idea of a digital nomad suggests that the internet is where home is. I'm not sure that is true in our case. I think we fit into a more disenchanted, alienated group. A typical gen-Xer response I suppose (a group I don't belong to). :) I can live with that distinction, even if it misses half the point. Instead, this trip is in part to search for connection, meaning and life. Thus this is a great experiment.

Lastly, I think this is a bit like the idea that the poor are crazy while the rich are eccentric. Perhaps homeless is reserved only for the poor, while the rich get 'nomad'.

JCD
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by JCD »

True enough and it is a very valid point. I'm not ignoring it, but consider how much effort Jacob put in to explaining a how retirement didn't mean leaving work forever, but more like backing away from ones main profession. That going back to work is not some sort of breaking with ERE principles.

Of course, *NTJs, common to ERE-land, are also some of the most fascinated with words, defining them and capturing meaning. It's part of how they build new models and capture new ideas. I have not taken on the particular task of talking about my word choice in the blog, mostly because I've just started. One does not build Rome in a day.

From a cultural front, homeless people are people out on the streets, in great need of support, often due to mental issues. They are seen as people who deserve pity as well as shunning. They are known for predicting the end times and spouting off other non-sense.

Now compare that to Jacob early on. He is/was greatly concerned with the end of oil, a thing that might look like the end times. His anti-consumerist message sounds much like a crazy person, spouting off non-sense. He was and is shunned by large groups of people, although to be fair he has created an in-group at this point. The two biggest differences is he had a physical dwelling, skills and that he had access to resources (he just simply didn't use).

While I agree Jacob does not fit homelessness, if you place enough additional elements like a lack of a dwelling, no community of belonging, it starts getting very close to homelessness. The only substantial difference is in the number of resources and skill. Admittedly, a non-trivial difference.

Let's go one step further, consider how the definition of homelessness is changing, at least in America. For example, living in an RV is now sometimes considered homelessness: https://www.rvtravel.com/if-you-live-in ... -homeless/

One of the big differences noted between a homeless and non-homeless RVer is that the homeless person lacks a job or lives in poorer conditions. I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that one who choose to live less consumerist can be seen as homeless. In fact, in one article I read on the subject described putting tarps over RVs as a sign of homelessness. Jacob put a tarp (well an advertisement) over his RV to prevent leaks. It is exactly that sort of innovative behavior that counts as homelessness in much of America.

Add in the emotional feelings of no place to particular land, it seems that it is a valid description. It may still be controversial, it still is only approximate, as the word for without a home, without a place, using few resources, but with additional possible resources doesn't seem to exist. I can live with shallow homelessness, it perhaps captures some of the elements of difference. I can understand why "nomad" feels more comfortable, but it is just as approximate, and misses some elements.

The last point to be made on the subject is what the law has to say: https://www.nhchc.org/faq/official-defi ... elessness/ "A recognition of the instability of an individual’s living arrangements is critical to the definition of homelessness." - Having slept at rest areas, having housing only scheduled a few days ahead could be construed as homeless.

The fact that it can be seen as homelessness doesn't bother me, but rather amuses me. If the definition fits, if it is how the term is used legally and is the nearest term to what is going on, I think it is valid to use. I agree with 600+k in the bank it is absurd too. I totally understand the cognitive dissonance. I understand why Nomad feels safer, less like crazy person under smelly old blanket. Don't want to be associated with that!

Yet, somehow I find myself feeling much sympathy and growing empathy for said crazy person. Like Jacob's own ethics about using as few resources as possible, I too feel that our system is unfairly consuming too much and leaving some people literally out in the cold. If I can be a voice for those folks at the same time I can teach others to live a more freedom oriented approach, then I've done my job well. Am I a good enough writer for that? I don't know. Maybe I'll just be a crazy old man shouting into the wind, with no audience but passers by on the street. If that happens, it'd be one more element to add to my homeless resume, I suppose.
</rant>

jacob
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by jacob »

"Rootless" might be a better word? I fully appreciate that words are "hard". While putting "retirement" into my blog url might have been a good SEO move, it was a total public relations shitshow.

In terms of "homeless", during our RV years (2008-2011), there was one (1) commenter who once called me homeless and while I was originally flabbergasted about what point they were trying to make(*) using that word I eventually realized they were probably referring to something like the above. As far as I was concerned, the IRS considers anything with a roof, a toilet, and a place to cook a de facto home---I forget which publication number it is, but that definition is literally in there. I think you can even get a mortgage on an RV if you can find someone willing to finance. In terms of financial security, I found it rather ironic since our RV was fully paid off unlike most people's mortgaged homes. Indeed, after we bought it, I remarked to DW that we were now in a position where we could never be homeless.

(*) Similar to the "he or she" debacle and other gender-words which is a part of American culture that I was not familiar with until after writing the ERE book and some commenters/reviewers started giving me hell about it.

Basically, words can be a minefield. However, since words are what we use to communicate with, it is necessary to sometimes stretch our words if we want to stretch our thinking. Words are tremendously constraining on our thinking---especially if insisting that they can only ever mean whatever it says in the dictionary. I think this is why philosophy theses---especially those concerning ontology(**)---spend 90% of their page count essentially defining or redefining what certain words mean within the context of the thesis before rebuilding a new framework. For example, I'm not sure that newcomers to the FIRE movement (after it got popular or popularized in the media) appreciate how big a deal it was to call oneself early-retired 10+ years ago. But now everybody knows that it's not necessary about senior living routines anymore.

(**) What the definition of "is" is? :-P

Jason

Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by Jason »

I'm not doubting your intentions, but this is just another "Living On A Dollar Day because I can afford to be temporarily living on a dollar a day to bring attention to those who are permanently living on a dollar a day" blog. All this etymological parsing of "homeless" or "houseless" or "nomad" is in itself a luxury. It's just sociological slumming, dipping your big toe into the poor end of the pool so to speak. Its admirable that you have empathy for the real homeless, but you lost me at software developer or whatever job you had.

My feeling is that this MMM/ERE/simplicity whatever you want to call it movement is already played out. I clicked on a video of a retired airline stewardess getting ready to go to her job as an airline stewardess. What does this all mean anymore? Your money and time are your own business but I think this whole endeavor is so overly saturated by now that if you were James Agee it wouldn't make a difference.

MMM and JLF gave people a roadmap and they deserve a lot of credit for it. But now? It's just a bunch of road trippers sending postcards to the choir.

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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by thrifty++ »

Hey sounds like you are on a good journey here. But to be honest was a wee bit of an anti climax reading this. When you were talking about homelessness I had quite a different picture in my head. It sounds more like you are just travelling.
I had images in my mind that brought my back to an e book about a guy who was truly homeless and did many radical things to thrive while being homeless. I started reading some of it, was amazing, but lost track of it. I cant remember the name of it or find it again. He literally slept in the bushes then would find free vouchers for mcdonalds. It was all such a hacked adventure. If someone can hunt that book down and advise the title that would be awesome

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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by jacob »

@JCD - The initial comments are pretty harsh and perhaps/unfortunately they flew off on an unexpected tangent, but I think they are well intended, so please don't let that discourage you from continuing the blog. However, you are playing with fire (ha!) when you take on the definition of "homeless". This is something I had to learn the hard way and a big reason why I eventually quit blogging as the FIRE spread and more and more "literal people" read my writings.

The following post was written near the end of my blogging career: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/angry ... -poor.html , also see the comments.
(BTW, the database seems to be broken and not all comments show anymore. No idea why. If anyone does, LMK)

JCD
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by JCD »

Thank you @jacob, your words are thoughtful and measured, as always. I very much agree with you that rootless is a fairly good description.

@thrifty++, I agree, it was not meant to move into that sort of fight about words direction. I know of at least one guy who did that for a year. Those sorts of experiences are interesting.

@Jason I agree. I was actually driving through Indianapolis today, looking at run down, beat up shacks, sometimes called "homes", but for my money, I'd say land with lumber. We've considered moving into that sort of area. We'd rather be with the working poor, not those who collectively are in utter despair with no way out. As a bit of a philosopher, playing with words is a enjoyable game, but it is just a game. There are real people at the end of the day, and they should be treated with respect. I see no disrespect in describing myself as like someone else, with clear, well defined notes about the differences. I'm not trying to create some sort of street cred nor profit, just describe a journey going from a really nice, wealthy, place to having no home, no idea where I'm going beyond a few months (with luck and skill) and the only stability I can get being paid with by money. If homeless is not precise, and I agree it isn't, I see no perfect word that is. MMM, et al. all have chosen a more stable existence, one with a roof over their heads. I agree, I have limited depth to provide, but I think there is still something fresh in that. Perhaps I'm missing someone who has done that well? Who has systematized that aspect? I agree there are travel sites, but not of I started with a house, job, etc. and went to this. I see more "I'm an artistic person who just wanted to go experience new things." (Jacob had a post about Guardians which used a name for that, but I'm too lazy to look it up)

Last thing, you might find this interesting. My friend, Michael David Crawford, was a deeply homeless software developer: https://soylentnews.org/meta/article.pl ... 26/0356205 His big problem was he'd miss his meds one day and then he'd go back to being unstable and end up homeless. Eventually it got him. Being a software developer may enable you high pay, but only if your stable enough to deal with the job. I have been, but it was at great cost. It was eating away at my soul. I don't know what more I can say around my profession. I love it, but politics kills. I'm fairly certain that was true for MDC too, he simply couldn't convince clients to accept him since he was too flighty.

@bigato Can words have more than one meaning? If it makes you feel any better, I have been deeply homeless as well. At 12 my father locked my mother and I out of our house, falsely accusing her... and we ended up in a truck for about a week before being housed by relatives. That certainly fits gov't definitions of homelessness. Incidentally, my father also was a millionaire, so it was a long, long drop rather rapidly. I'm not ignorant of the journey. I also have been physically attacked at home and left. At what point does one know enough about a word to be able to use it in unconventional ways?

One thing to note, is if I get sick, don't feel up to driving 400 miles, while I surely can pay to stay at a motel, if I extravagantly spend too often, I will go from shallow homelessness to deep homelessness. I've fallen from grace once, to do so again wouldn't be anything particularly new.

JCD
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by JCD »

I've been thinking about those offended by my choice of words. So I'm extending an offer to anyone who feels that way.

Donate $100 dollars to any shelter, food bank or other obviously homeless-related organization, in whatever name you please (I will be perfectly satisfied with "Those against the travesty of word choice" or "Pedantic society" or simply in your own name). If done so, following the rules below, by 7/27, 10 PM EST(*), I'll temporarily take down my blog and completely edit it choosing some other word.

If you have over 1000 posts, I'll accept that you did it purely on your word as a honorable human being. If you have under 1000 posts, I'll ask for a picture of a receipt or check (with account number covered, please!).

Let me make this even easier. Collectively, if those offended follow the above rules can reach $100 I'll accept that too. My purpose will be served. Certainly $100 dollars would achieve any value I could have done in my writing. Also $100 dollars is not so much money that it will bankrupt anyone.

(*) After that I'll either be traveling or will be at my grandmothers who has no internet for several weeks. I simply can't be responsive in that environment.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

JCD wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:32 pm
I'm not trying to create some sort of street cred nor profit, just describe a journey going from a really nice, wealthy, place to having no home, no idea where I'm going beyond a few months (with luck and skill) and the only stability I can get being paid with by money. If homeless is not precise, and I agree it isn't, I see no perfect word that is. MMM, et al. all have chosen a more stable existence, one with a roof over their heads. I agree, I have limited depth to provide, but I think there is still something fresh in that. Perhaps I'm missing someone who has done that well? Who has systematized that aspect? I agree there are travel sites, but not of I started with a house, job, etc. and went to this.
On the contrary, there are TONS of blogs/sites of wealthy Americans who took this route and blogged about it. If you can't find them, I suggest spending a bit more time researching the domain before putting forth more effort to duplicate what has been done.

PS - I don't think anyone was offended by your word choice, it's just very "click bait-y"

Enjoy the ride!
Last edited by 2Birds1Stone on Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jason

Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by Jason »

JCD wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:32 pm
Perhaps I'm missing someone who has done that well? Who has systematized that aspect?
I mentioned James Agee because of his classic work with tenant farmers. I think its required reading for these type of endeavors. And it is beautifully written like Thoreau meets Faulkner meets I don't know, some other writer. It's poetic in its objectivity.

https://www.amazon.com/Let-Now-Praise-F ... 0618127496

I don't mean to be a douche. Well, who am I fooling. I do mean to be a douche. And I admit to being a slummer. I'm just too lazy to get out of my swivel chair. I read Hillbilly Elegy. I think there is merit to these types of endeavors.

The criticism I am levying against you is common, so don't let it deter you. You can wiki "On The Run" by Alice Goffman and see what happens in academic circles when people do it. Because I think what you are actually doing is akin to sociological field work and you might want to read works in that discipline, specifically the scholars from The University of Chicago in the middle 20th century and guys like Daniel Bell and Nathan Glazer. Or even Hunter S. Thompson and his work with The Hells Angels. I think the question you will struggle with is how much of you do you want to insert into the equation.

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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by unemployable »

That blog is kind of a rambling mess. Also, do you really weigh 380 pounds?

Jason

Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by Jason »

380 lbs? You'd have to be the Michael Jordan of begging to be homeless at that weight.

JCD
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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by JCD »

@unemployable
I have to admit to struggling to find the right level of detail on the blog. On the one hand, I want to be technical, particularly as an introduction. Then I want to document my own journey and then there is the more philosophical and system pieces I want to address. Hard to capture them all and hard to do so quickly to move on to the more interesting, less beginner pieces. However, if you have constructive criticism, I'm all ears.

I believe I maybe down to 360 lbs, but yes, near enough. And yes, I agree, weight is not my friend. Over the past 20 years I've averaged a 10lb weight gain. It has been rather consistent. However, being overweight and homeless is not a contradiction as a simple google search would tell you: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-05- ... obese.html In my own research, I have found that most mental and moral issues are either ignorance issues, resource issues or some form of OCD. For most homeless, as the article states, it is a resource issue. For myself, I think it is a OCD issue.

@ 2Birds1Stone

I'm sorry, I wasn't fully capturing some of my point earlier.

It's not just the factors I listed, but trying to apply them while thinking in a ERE style thinking. It is about systematizing these ideas, not creating lists of tips and tricks.

You are right, I could be the self promoting, click-baiting questionable person you imply my content suggests I am. I didn't really have that intent--obviously from you can see now, it's not some giant effort to monitize. I have not intentionally tried to reach out to varying communities to get more clicks, this is the only community I have joined, and mostly because of all the value I've gotten from it. However, in looking around, I have yet to find someone trying to do what I am attempting. Consider these examples:

I see artists, marketing themselves, selling their words in a travel porn kind of way:
https://www.365daysonairbnb.com
I see folks who are willing to live on large sums of money while capturing lots of tips and tricks:
https://www.gocurrycracker.com
I see folks who have no follow through:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AirBnB/comment ... in_airbnb/

Instead, my goal is documenting a reasonable attempt to apply ERE-like principles into a travel effort. I'm also attempting to gather together strategic principles that can generally be applied, not just "here is what I did" or tips and tricks. Yes, I'm trying to put a bit of that fluff in the beginning, simply to get it out of the way, but it isn't the point. The point is to try to capture the more impactful ways to live efficiently, with as little damage to the environment, with as much consideration for the local peoples and cultures and with a gentle spirit in mind. It's also an effort to examine places to land after traveling, since I don't expect to travel forever.

Truth be told, I simply don't know myself if such content is worth anything. I see Generation-X doing something similar to my own efforts captured here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3599&start=220#p191424 Perhaps there are enough ERE examples to be picked out and pointed out?

However, one reason I resisted just writing here alone is people less often cross-pollinate personal logs compared to blogs. For whatever reason that is true. I also thought it was wiser to have a blog, just in case it became valuable content. It then allows me to protect it, it prevents any black swans from taking down all the ERE-oriented lifestyle descriptions content all at once. It seemed like a lot of good to come out of such a small decision.

Are there travel oriented blogs, interested in the moral implications, interested in analyzing life in different areas? If so, I'd be very interested in them. Maybe my google foo is just not up to the task.

Jason

Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by Jason »

JCD wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:43 am
However, being overweight and homeless is not a contradiction
I imagine it could be like those in food deserts that only have access to high fat, unhealthy foods and the weight gain is attributable to poor nutrition. But in all due respect, 380lbs can't just be poor nutrition. And based on your annual growth rate, in 10 years they're going to have can open your RV to get you out there.

Maybe you provide ideas on how the homeless can cook healthier meals. Like a picture of you in front of an oven captioned "Homeless on The Range."

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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by unemployable »

I would focus on making each blog entry narrower but deeper.

You have to find an angle. What do you do differently from all the other FIRE blogs out there? The angles I can think of that may apply to you are:
  • You don't seem to have quit work completely. How long will this phase be, what do you hope to accomplish other than vague "travel" and what is your strategy for re-entering the workforce (where will this be, what job, how will you go about getting it, then what)?
  • Travel and FIRE as a couple -- you touch on this, and I'd explore it more regarding buy-in from the spouse, how her view clashes with yours, arguments you've had.
  • FIRE as a fat guy. There's "FatFIRE" as in living off 5-6% but you're doing it literally. No one accidentally gets to 360. You eat more and shittier foods than the rest of us. Does this limit opportunities? Shouldn't putting a lockdown on your spending make losing weight easier? Can you come up with a catchy goal such as "net worth $100k up and weight 100lbs down"? Of course you can; I just did.
These are the things I find interesting, don't have a perspective on and would be willing to read more about.

I am interested in people's math, but as many numbers as you throw around I don't have a full story. You apparently have bankrolled expenses but I don't see any mention of a net worth, anything in terms of actual spending as a portion of living expenses or any mention of an actual withdrawal rate. So I don't really know how sustainable what you're doing is, and can't relate it to what I'm trying to do.

Finally, I wouldn't call you ERE, or what you do "slow travel". Staying in an AirBnB every night? Eating full meals at restaurants? I recently took an eight-night, 2700-mile trip between my winter and summer homes and had exactly $0 in lodging expenses. Why do you need to go to Europe in high season just to repeat all the spending you do here? You can do better on the spending side, a lot better.

Jason

Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by Jason »

lol@fatfire

"Homeless but Living Large"

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Re: Experimenting with Life

Post by FIRE 2018 »

@JCD
380lbs is dangerous. When I worked at MegaCorp a peer of mine in our management team dropped dead at work in front of his computer. I saw him 2 hours before he expired. He was 40 years old. His funeral was a really sad event. Get help in losing weight.

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