Early Retirement Extreme Forums

classical_Liberal wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:58 pm

There's no better part of life than getting excited about some type of big change. I know the schoolie has been on your mind for awhile, so taking these first steps must be REALLY exciting. Congrats!

Thanks! A lot of what you write about in your journal these days swims around my head a lot. I'm always running around scrambling to get stuff done on my days off, I don't have enough time! I love the flow of your days, it's seriously inspiring!

Sorry, I really wasn't trying to crap on your dreams! I also think I misunderstood the purpose of the bus. I thought it was just to be a cheaper alternative to your current home, and not a reset to semi-fire, travel, and homeschool. I probably missed the obvious, which is spending more time with your son as well. My friends who work all say they don't want to be at home, so I kind of assume every working woman is like that. I remember now that you guys found out you weren't attached to your house at all when you were looking at downsizing and I had forgotten that too.

I do think a trial run will help clarify it as a must-do or something else, and I was actually thinking of your DH primarily, since I think you've said he's the one who has more attachment to stuff and if he's used to doing projects in his own garage he will have to absorb how different life will be. Really though, if it makes sense to you all, it will make sense to your friends and family too and I bet they will support it. Good luck.

@peanut, thanks but I think I was overreacting! But, I am also preparing to deal with this sort of commentary. Just one of the problems when you tell folks what 'crazy' scheme you're up to that is different from the norm. Folks who know me aren't too surprised by this current dream. I do think DH will need some outlet for his tinkering ways. We've heard of a local space that houses some diy folks that work on cars and tool share. It sounds right up his alley. But, I'm not ready to start paying for another space for him yet.

I don't know how long bus life will suit us, I'm hoping to get three to five years in it. But, we'll first have to get in and go from there. Lots of unknowns, but it is exciting!

Read (and starting to reread) a book about habits, Better Than Before. I like the author, she writes in a semi-autobiographical way where she, friends and family members try out habits and methods of sticking to habits that she researches. According to her terminology, I am an Obliger. Someone that "meets outer expectations, resists inner expectations." This is important as she suggests different methods to keep with habits that suit the 'tendency' someone displays. I do find it hard to meet amorphous deadlines, like editing a policy at work that no one is telling me needs to be done. I delay doing things until the procrastination wears me out, then I finally do whatever I am stressing about. It's annoying and definitely counter-productive. .

She has specific suggestions for each tendency, there are four. For my type, she suggests creating external accountability either through making plans with another person, or some other method that creates a somewhat artificial deadline. This is useful to understand about myself, especially with regards to my bumbling attempts to work on my 'web o' goals'.

Recently @wolf gave me more details about his process of writing and thinking about becoming a Renaissance man. It was really helpful. I won't do the amount of writing that he does, but I've been fleshing out my modules. One big realization I had that fits my obliger/extrovert nature is that I really like including a community/connection within each of my modules. So, for daily exercise I've been emailing two friends that are doing the same online workouts when I do my workout. It's a small connection with them, but it helps me be excited to exercise so I can get my gold star from my friends. For 'time in nature' I've been trying to get small hikes in with friends or my son.

A friend from work has come over twice with his stargazing gear. I've long wanted to know more constellations but haven't made any progress in years. He has multiple telescopes and binocular tripods and is more knowledgeable (and a natural teacher) about stars and planets. The first time he came over we were able to see the rings of Saturn! Holy cow, that was unexpected and really freaking cool. DH said that was something on his bucket list. Seeing his own sperm on a microscope was also on his bucket list just to give you more perspective on him. Good thing I have access to excellent microscopes at work. So, stargazing with my friend is also part of my 'time in nature' and learning module. I still feel such a novice at this web of goals that I'm nervous to say my modules. But, whatever, people here are so friendly and supportive I'll go ahead.

My modules are:
Health: exercise, time in nature (i had cooking low carb but I don't really know where to go with that)
Financial Independence: frugality (buy nothing year -more on that some other time), saving, financial education
Happy family: DH (sex, helping him realize life long goals), son (time with us, time in nature) Me: community, health, organization and decluttering
Learning: reading (star books, gardening, financial literacy, habits....also good sci-fi and fantasy)
Making things: working on the school bus will kick start this, it's not something I'm not really actively working on...

So, while I cribbed some of these modules from the ERE book, I am slowly crafting it to fit me. I've made the most progress with this when I've brainstormed ideas of what to read and who to do things in each module with. I can't find the Fifth Discipline at the library, so I'll perhaps be buying it? I realize my limitations because I really think about each of these modules in a sort of goal way, rather than a process way. But, I'm making some progress clarifying what my modules are. I'm also making some progress doing the activities in my modules on a somewhat daily basis. I have a lot to learn about systems theory and how to shift from being goal orientated to process orientated. At least, I assume I need to head that direction? I think about exercise now as something I do everyday (mostly) and I don't have an end goal in mind with it, ie lose 10 pounds or fit into that one pair of jeans. I think of it as something that helps me feel better and be happier with myself. Perhaps I have made more progress than I thought?

I am not a natural systems thinker like some seem to be (@horsewoman I'm looking at you), but I am trying. Part of this process is learning how I operate (rather than how I want/fool myself into thinking I operate) and what I want to make my life into.

tl:dr I am slowly crafting my web of goals and I saw the rings of Saturn.

Seeing the rings of Saturn is pretty rad and I'm jealous! Amateur astronomy is something I've wanted to get into for years, but I've never pushed the button. I blame it partly on the obstacles of living in a place with the combination of terrible light pollution and seldomly clear skies* and the fact I'm soooo not a night person. I think if I do ever take the plunge I'll have to be an early morning stargazer. Getting up at 3 would be so much better than staying up till 12!

*compared to where I grew up where you can see the milky way from my parent's driveway on most any night

@cheepnis most mornings that are clear I have a much better view of Orion than my buddy who can actually stay up late. So, mornings are really good for night time viewing too. Orion is one of my favorite constellations. I don't know a ton, but I always feel like he's my buddy. Plus I loved Greek mythology growing up and his story is pretty crazy. But the light pollution is the real problem, thankfully my small town is fairly dark.

This month is a three paycheck month and I'm really happy with what I've saved to date:
401 k: $370
HSA: $370
Savings: $1800

One more paycheck to go and it won't be as much into saving as that's the mortgage paycheck. But, still I am freakin' pumped! This is the first month with significant actual savings. It feels fantastic!

We have an emergency fund again and I am starting to get a baseline idea of how much we can save on top of the HSA/401 k. Next year our premium is going to go down $157 a month. Yep, going DOWN. I've already got the paperwork together to just roll that money into the HSA so we don't touch it all.

I really appreciate this community and feel like I've made big strides because of the encouragement and examples of you folks! Thanks!

We've made some progress on downsizing our belongings, especially in the kitchen. I did a BIG purge in there and it is lovely. We only kept a few dishes and silverware and it keeps us better at doing dishes in a timely manner. The counters are clearer and the space feels easier to keep tidy and clean.

The other big news is that my big Christmas present from my Dad is forgiving the last of my loan with him, a cool $3450. I did consider not accepting the offer, but the desire to be out of student loan debt won out over pride of self-sufficiency. So, five years after I graduated we've paid off $96,000. Going forward, I'm going to start putting a small amount into a 529 for my son and possibly start a Roth for DH. I didn't want to start saving for my son's college while I was paying off our college debt. And, I also don't want to save a ton of money in a 529 for him, but I do want to help him with school. The 529 is a good way to funnel grandparent's desires to help and possibly stem the tide of stuff coming our way.

We started a buy nothing quarter and it has been mixed. I was really excited to start it and we did some talking about rules and such. We've been talking about buying a car so that was an exception to the nuy nothing quarter. And any house maintenance that was necessary also had to be an exception. Well, we found a good 2003 Subaru Forester with decent miles, the head gasket was already replaced and a really good price. So we bought it with cash a couple of days ago. We are temporarily up to two cars until we sell the Suburban. This newer car should significantly reduce our fuel consumption and maintenance costs-our two biggest line items with our current 14 mpg beast.

Anyway, with the purchase of the car comes the future purchase of tires, mats and a few odds and ends to keep it looking good. And then I broke two essential things: the screen for the mac air and the glass door for the wood stove. We replaced the air with a chromebook and DH is going to try in a few months to replace the screen. We are getting the glass replaced by the company we bought the stove from, at least $200 in parts and who knows how much in labor. Ugh! So, it's hard to tell that we've started an 'extreme' buy nothing quarter. I hope I won't break anything else and the buy nothing can truly start.

If something else breaks during this quarter you could try going without at least until the quarter is up. Perhaps you'll find you don't need it as much as you think. For example, while I don't know the nature of your computer needs, you could probably take care of a majority of them on your phone (if you have one) and the things you couldn't you could do at the library. It would require a change in habit, routine, and mindset, but the end result in things accomplished on a computer would likely be indistinguishable.

I've had two Subarus of around that vintage. They both had the same 2.5L 4 cylinder and comparable tire diameter and each has gotten wildly different gas mileage! My current one only gets about 29 highway at the best whereas my first one could get up to 34 and I can't figure it out, haha. I've pretty much given up on it. Either way, a big improvement over 14. I do wish you could disengage the AWD for better mileage when you don't need it. Otherwise they're great cars!

Yeah that's the problem with absolutes, like "no spend" or whatever. They're often suboptimal when the whole system is considered. I guess it's a good exercise if something is a big problem area though, because I think abstinence in something is easier than moderation, but maybe that's just my personality. In any event, I think progress of the whole is more important than a goal, a goal whose purpose was to help achieve a better end system. We become what we measure.

Congrats on the student loan! I had a similar dilemma several years ago when my mother wanted to help out in a similar way and pay off a couple of thousand of my student debt. Don't feel bad about it, it's something that'll make him feel good. In a few years 3K will seem like such a small amount to you anyway, so if he ever needs help, for whatever reason, you can always give it back to him. That's how I look at it, win-win.

@cheepnis, that's weird with the Subarus! We haven't filled the tank yet, but anything will be an improvement over the fuel hog that is the Suburban. After living in our small town area for five years, I've sorta given up on mileage as the most important part of a car. We need decent mileage AND the ability to drive in the snow and get deep in the woods.

I did already give up my smart phone, which was no sacrifice, but does make a computer less living situation unattractive. I did buy the chormebook before the start of the buy nothing quarter and we aren't going to fix the air until it is over. We get the door for the wood stove today and I am so ready to turn off the heat, how did I ever live with forced air for so long? It is the worst, you never feel really warm. It drives me bonkers that the whole house is getting luke warm.

@classical that's about right, the experiment is suboptimal because I do sorta 'need/want' to buy some things. The point has been to shake us out of our routines of purchasing solutions. If I'm honest, I would like to think think I don't need such an extreme experiment, but I am still new to ERE. I decided to make it only a quarter as we will hopefully be starting to work on the bus in early spring. I do think it has been helpful, but probably not as profound as if we had started last spring. DH did say that knowing that the buy nothing quarter was coming up led him to stop aimless internet shopping/research.

Personally, I got a little wild before the start of it and kept having these 'what if' scenarios come up. I can't remember any specifics, but it was as if the consumer in me was getting sqirrely and anxious about not buying anything. Mostly, I just ignored those thoughts, but it was interesting to see that I had some nervousness about buying nothing. It reminded me of that scene in the last Harry Potter book where Harry and Dumbledore are at the train station after Voldemort killed Harry. They keep hearing the whimpering of the bit of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry. That's my last bit of consumerism, the ugly naked whimpering bit that you can't do anything for, you just ignore it.

"E-ER is freedom through investments, ERE is freedom through skill. Period. What they have in common is low expenses. For someone with an ERE mindset, the function of investment income is to provide enough confidence to start relying entirely on the skills that got him to FI. Whereas if the E-ER practitioner were to be separated from his investments, he would have no choice but to get a job. That’s the difference." @fish from a really interesting thread, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7870&start=40

I think I am more leaning towards the ERE side, rather than E-RE or as @basauragomi said "MMM" style. That thread had some interesting ideas/assumptions people had about retirement. I have seen a lot of people assume that they will spend less once they retire. Drive less, eat out less etc, and I think that is a shaky assumption. In that thread referenced above (or another...might have a few mixed up) Jacob talked about having a lot of years with expenses around $7 k. He wasn't assuming he would spend less once he retired, he had his lifestyle fairly worked out already. I don't have a great history with tracking expenses and that is a weakness for me. Also, this last year has seen a lot of upheaval in our expenses, dropped cell phone bills, lowered grocery spending and other areas are lower. So, if I can get better at the tracking habit, I'll be able to make assumptions for the future.

I have an annual review coming next month coupled with a modest 2.5% raise. Normally, I've been putting at least an extra 1% into the 401k, with each raise or cost of living increase, but I think I won't this time. My 'net worth' is very low and mostly out of reach easily, ie house equity and retirement accounts. I need to focus more on saving outside of those two areas. I realize I might forgo some tax advantages, but I want a more balanced financial situation.

One of the biggest skills I need to work on is patience. I can get into trouble by being too impatient. I think there is a line in the ERE book about (paraphrasing here) 'in a world of abundance, patience is the best tactic.." Patience is a form of discipline, I think and I need to be more disciplined.

Anyway, another rambling post with tons of future thinking. It's beautiful out here today, sunny skies and a nice dusting of snow. I need to get outside and feed the birds. Hope all of you are well.....

That thread was an eye-opener for me 3 years back when I first read it. The direct link to it is still saved under the FI tab in my browser. I think one component missed in that discussion is the idea of living without. For example, one can learn all the skills needed to purchase low cost used cars, maintain them per self, minimize use, ect. Once you start doing everything yourself, it becomes clear that it's just easier to not have a car. IOW, for certain things, for certain people, given the option of DIY or do without, it becomes much easier to make the decision to do without. Another way to put it is finding alternative ways to meet needs.

This all has to do with how someone designs their life. "DIY or do without" is a great slogan, but doesn't always make sense either. It's a really good starting point though. I've reached a point where I think the hardest part is learning what you actually do need. Housing, food, transportation, healthcare, once these are figured out the battle is only partially won. Moving up the Maslowesque ERE hierarchy there's; social needs/tribe/fitting in, purpose/value creation, self actualization, appropriate leisure, ect. My biggest mistake (so far) in the ERE journey was building a great system for the lower level stuff without considering the higher level stuff. The higher level stuff now eats up more than half my total spending and I'm not even sure I'm making any progress improving those areas with all the money spent.

Tracking expenses was a game changer for me. It might seem boring or restricting, but it is quite the opposite. It is a great tool to retrain yourself, typing in the numbers and watching the total creep up is great for training impulse control. Seeing that 300 in your spread sheet you blew on a camera months ago, and realizing that you used it 5 times since then... priceless!
I'm amazed that I have been able to keep track for almost 2 years now - doing things regularly is very hard for me, and I usually quit as soon as it gets boring (I'm easily bored ;) . For some reason, messing around in my spread sheet never bores me. In the end it is a habit, take a receipt for every cash transaction, or make a note on a piece of paper in your wallet for small amounts.
I highly recommend it, and seeing that we are about to enter a new year, it is the perfect time to get started :)

@horsewoman, thanks for the extra push. I have been tracking on and off and when I do have the numbers it is super instructive, shocking, huh? Now that our only debt is mortgage and the skoolie is on the horizon, tracking and saving money is essential. I've started a generic budget in the google spreadsheet, I'll tailor it as I learn, but it is good to get something started that I can't lose. I prefer tracking on paper, but I keep losing the paper.

DH sold our Suburban for $1200 yesterday. He took some of the money and bought snow tires and had them mounted on wheels he got at the junkyard. I had been trying to hold off on buying tires until we sold the truck, so it worked out perfectly. Especially with snow on the ground here it's nice that we can get up to the hills and go sledding now.

@classical_liberal your comment prompted me to start really thinking about what I want after retirement.

I'm mostly motivated to retire based on getting AWAY from work, but I don't have a clear idea of what I want to MOVE to. I do have a young child and possibly homeschooling is a reality, especially if we end up slow travelling in the school bus. But, the idea of wrapping myself entirely in my child doesn't seem healthy.

The activities I want more time for right now all are leisure based; exercise, hiking, reading, birding, etc. I have thought (and I realize the irony of this with my early post about tracking money) about learning to become a book keeper. This small town has dozens of small businesses and with my connections with the farmers market, I could have a (very) small business helping farmers + creative types. I need to learn this stuff for our business anyway, so that could be something that I could scale up down the line. I don't think I will ever go back to school, so accounting is off the table. We'll see, this is the time to start brainstorming.

I've been starting to read about solar systems. I am enjoying the learning, though it happens in fits and spurts. This is my area to figure it out with the skoolie. So much depends on what appliances we will choose for the school bus. Right now I'm on the fence about having a refrigerator. In our daily life I think we could learn to live without a fridge, if and only if we can find a source for local unwashed eggs. I cannot live without eggs. Or, at least, I am unwilling to try. Part of what I hope we can do with this skoolie is get to the brass tacks about what we NEED in a home, not just what we are used to.

As a side note, our roommate situation could not be better. We hit the jackpot with him. He's very clean and we often share meals together. He is sweet to my son and our animals. He's a very serious student and mostly keeps to his room or school. I wanted to put it out there that these good roommates exist and it has been an easy way to reduce our housing costs.

This is my numbers-light end of year post.

I joined the forum in Jan and started posting in Feb, I think. Since then the changes we've made to our lives:
1. I got rid of my smart phone, DH got a cheaper phone and plan
2. Sold two cars (one with a loan)
3. Bought used car with cash
4. Started food shopping at a cheaper store, now food runs around $450/ (when I track) instead of 700-900 when I first started tracking
5. Bicycling is back in our lives, especially during non-snow time
6. Have a roommate dropping our housing cost down $400/month
7. Increased HSA and 401k contributions, most paychecks have around $370 coming out
8. Paid off $25,000 in debt (selling car with car loan and Dad forgave $3450 of personal loan)

We've made big progress this year.

Assets:

401k 38,328
HSA 3200
DH IRA 3600
Savings 3836
House: 18,156 equity (this is the least accurate number because this is just what we have paid off of our mortgage, not what the house is 'worth')
Car: not including this with depreciation because we have no plans to sell it.

Total: 67,120
Without house: 48,964

We are still heavily in debt with our mortgage, but we are closer to an actual starting point for ERE.

Goals/Hopes for 2020:
1. Consistent tracking of expenses (we still need to lower food costs for sure but where else we are wasting money is...sorta unknown)
2. Be in converted school bus by Thanksgiving
3. Make some gains in our side business (better signs for market, tracking expenses, gaining wholesale customers, etc)
4. Maintain exercising habit
5. Learn more economics (reading McConnell now slowly)

I think those are enough to focus on, it is a big list but some of the behaviors (tracking spending + bus tracking) are related and consistent exercise is an excellent way to keep me energized. Thanks for everyone who is here for inspiring me and giving me ideas and hopes for the future!

With that car debt gone you're set up for a great 2020! Are you planning on living in the bus and renting out your house? Upthread you mention the possibility of slow traveling in it but you sound on the fence about that. If you're not going to travel immediately where will you park it? Campgrounds? Wally-word?

@cheepnis We are thinking that we'll rent the house out, either with a company or ourselves. I can see us travelling in a few years, once we get a lot closer to pulling the plug on full time work. Once we're in the skoolie, I can see us travelling to deal with aging parents, but hopefully that is a few years away.

Where to park it is a huge unanswered questions. I was talking with a coworker today and he mentioned how close we are to national forest land. And the 14 day free rule. In the summer that could be an amazing option. My brother in law gave us some electric bikes with dead batteries. DH thinks it might take around $300 to fix them. So, that could be an option while the weather is nice.

I have been putting feelers out around here. A lot of people have 1-10 acres here and might want to make some side money renting to us. I hope so. I'm pretty concerned about my commute, I really don't want to live 20 miles away and have to get up earlier and spend more money on transportation. I'll do it if the perfect situation comes up. But I'm also considering RV parks, there are a surprisingly high number pretty close to the city limits. I have heard that some RV parks don't like skoolies, but we'll see. We can't park and live in the bus in the city limits, but if I can get a commute that is 6 miles or less, I'll be good to bike a lot of the year.

So, my move in date to the skoolie is in 330 days. Holy shit. It just got REAL.

mooretrees wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:57 pm

So, my move in date to the skoolie is in 330 days. Holy shit. It just got REAL.

How exciting!! I can't wait to read how this plays out for you.

So here's my first (published) attempt at a savings rate calculation. I'm trying it for the year as I didn't do a consistent job with monthly tracking to do it by month. Please let me know if you see any errors.

Here's my formula (cribbed from C40's journal): Savings rate= savings/income

Savings = (after tax $ saved) + (401k contributions) + (401k employer contributions)

Income = (after tax income) + the same two as above

My savings number is a little hollow as it comes mostly from paying debt off, this is more of a projection of what we could see in the future.

Hard numbers:

Savings: (22,034 +3474.15) + (7728.38) + (2340) = 35,576.53
Income :(50,002.40) + (7728.38) + (2340) = 60,070.78

Savings rate = 59.2%

I was surprised to see that high a number. I really discovered ERE in spring of last year, so we had a long implementation time (still continuing...) for reducing expenses. It was heartening though, in reality, we don't have all that much money saved or readily available.

On top of the other goals I've put out there I want to save $500-1500 after tax and not ear marked for the school bus. It is a modest number, but a feasible goal as I do think we'll spend $15 k getting the school bus livable. I think it is a decent amount to save per month for future investing.

@moortrees
Congrats that's a great savings rate!