As Suiro would say "Hoo Boy"
I bet I get zonked on this thread!
I read a great many of the posts you folks make, and one thing I am sure of, most of you are trying to ditch your jobs. This always makes me wonder why is it so? I know you want the freedom of not having to occupy your cubicle for 8 or more hours a day. Many of the IT workers say that. I hear the IT people say it is so terribly mundane and such. I hear others say their employer is uncaring and demanding. Some of you are willing to live on next to nothing in order to ditch a job you don't like--as soon as you can. That is an admirable goal, and if it in fact improves your life, I am saying go for it.
That said, are your jobs all that bad really? Or maybe the job is not so bad, you just want the full freedom from them?
Now it may be sounding so far that I am actually "questioning" the principles of ERE. NOT so at all! I fully understand the goals and plans of getting to ERE.
It could be that my problem with all this would stem from the fact that several, (20-30) years ago, people were actually thankful they had a job at all. Go back to the 1970 era. That period came with a pretty drastic recession. Interest rates were 12 percent. Home loans went as high as 15 percent for some new loans. Many people could not even get a loan at all. People were all together glad they had a job that paid some money. You did not hear of many who "just up and quit" back then. I am 66 years old and have had three (3) jobs in my working life. I never thought once they were mundane or redundant. I was excited about all of them. I never thought (at least) I had a demanding or overbearing boss, and I always joined in on the work and goals of the company just like I owned the place myself. I am sure I was overworked and underpaid, but I never fathomed it was that way. I was just very glad to have a job that bought me roof, beans and electric services.
Back in the 1960's through 1980's, retirement was worked for 20 years and unless you shot the CEO's cat, you got it. No worries about a pension or profit sharing, or what ever plan you had. You, in a sense, knew you would be taken care of at 60, but deep down, well, you did not want to be 60. The concept of jumping ship early was not even thought of. Health Care, dental, retirement, vacation, profit sharing, what ever, was the driving factor. Sure, some did NOT like their jobs. Others did not like ANY job at all. Some made a personal identification with their jobs, like it was part of their heritage or something.
Not so (evidently) today. Things have certainly changed and I see that in every post I read on here.
I am PRO-ERE for you folks. I support you a hundred miles an hour. You see and know things I would never have known when I was your ages. I am all for you.
I guess I have been so self-absorbed in life, I missed the changes. Sweeping ones evidently. I guess I am just asking why it changed? BTW: I am fully aware of the lack of good retirement pensions these days from various companies. I am also aware of the downsizing, etc and the less favorable climate for employment opportunities today vs yesterday. My questions are really about your motivations to exit the workplace altogether.
Your Job?
I know what you are saying, and personally, I don't really have as much problem with my job's content - but rather it's extent or demands on my life. I think it really comes down to society's expectation of the pace of progress. I'm wholeheartedly in favor of the ERE lifestyle, but at the same time, I realistically concede that if everyone shared that lifestyle, we wouldn't have landed on the moon in 1969. I'm ok with that.
Assume, hypothetically, I could find an employer that would allow me to do my current job 3 days a week. Suppose they imposed no specific deadlines... I worked an honest 24 hours a week, and made what progress I could during that time (assuming I have an honest work ethic, which I do). If I had that job, I honestly would not feel the need to retire. I don't believe that's achievable in corporate america though. If I'm wrong, my resume's ready! Please send me leads!
Assume, hypothetically, I could find an employer that would allow me to do my current job 3 days a week. Suppose they imposed no specific deadlines... I worked an honest 24 hours a week, and made what progress I could during that time (assuming I have an honest work ethic, which I do). If I had that job, I honestly would not feel the need to retire. I don't believe that's achievable in corporate america though. If I'm wrong, my resume's ready! Please send me leads!
Why would I want to be compelled to work when I can obtain freedom from being forced to take a job I don't want, with a little bit of effort on my part right now?
Then I can do what I want: start my own business, or sleep in, or travel extensively, or backpack, or volunteer, or change careers.
Why would I find being forced to work in order to have food/shelter preferable to any of the above?
I don't hate my job (most of the time). I do hate how much time it takes up, and how it prevents me from doing long-term things I want, such as camping or travel.
Then I can do what I want: start my own business, or sleep in, or travel extensively, or backpack, or volunteer, or change careers.
Why would I find being forced to work in order to have food/shelter preferable to any of the above?
I don't hate my job (most of the time). I do hate how much time it takes up, and how it prevents me from doing long-term things I want, such as camping or travel.
@spencer: well,but weren't the hippies from somewhere in that period of the timeline you allude to? i'm not sure if the following would have appiled to them just as much:
"...glad they had a job that paid some money...did not hear of many who "just up and quit" back then....never thought once they were mundane or redundant....excited about all of them....never thought they had a demanding or overbearing boss, and always joined in on the work and goals of the company just like they owned the place myself...was just very glad to have a job that bought me roof, beans and electric services"
I guess its just that you personally weren't around a lot of people who fit the ERE description back in the day. Well let me tell you sir, I am not, in present times either! I still find that almost everyone around me fits the above 'glad to have a job..' description only too well. Maybe they are little grumpier than the generation you describe ( maybe that's just because its more okay to appear grumpy now that it was generations ago..atleast that's the idea I get from reading books from the old times where apparently it was much more uncool to compalin), but they are grateful for the 'opportunity' nonethless.If not for the internet, I would have believed that not many others even thought about the possibility of ERE. So, the internet may have had a role to play in that, like the hippie had to physically be in haight-ashbury( or wherever) to fully live that culture, you don't have to move into a community to live the ERE lifestyle fully..you can find ample advice/ideas/support etc online. ( the suatainable community idea that springs up occasionally here is cool though)
and also some cultural changes and better availabilty of self-employment opportunities ( courtesy the internet again) that makes it easier for people to think more about the possibility of early FI, partial ERE in their 20s, which would have been much more difficult earlier methinks.
"...glad they had a job that paid some money...did not hear of many who "just up and quit" back then....never thought once they were mundane or redundant....excited about all of them....never thought they had a demanding or overbearing boss, and always joined in on the work and goals of the company just like they owned the place myself...was just very glad to have a job that bought me roof, beans and electric services"
I guess its just that you personally weren't around a lot of people who fit the ERE description back in the day. Well let me tell you sir, I am not, in present times either! I still find that almost everyone around me fits the above 'glad to have a job..' description only too well. Maybe they are little grumpier than the generation you describe ( maybe that's just because its more okay to appear grumpy now that it was generations ago..atleast that's the idea I get from reading books from the old times where apparently it was much more uncool to compalin), but they are grateful for the 'opportunity' nonethless.If not for the internet, I would have believed that not many others even thought about the possibility of ERE. So, the internet may have had a role to play in that, like the hippie had to physically be in haight-ashbury( or wherever) to fully live that culture, you don't have to move into a community to live the ERE lifestyle fully..you can find ample advice/ideas/support etc online. ( the suatainable community idea that springs up occasionally here is cool though)
and also some cultural changes and better availabilty of self-employment opportunities ( courtesy the internet again) that makes it easier for people to think more about the possibility of early FI, partial ERE in their 20s, which would have been much more difficult earlier methinks.
Since I am not too far from HSpencer's generation (I turn 49 this year) I guess its not surprising I see his point of view on this issue. But instead of taking the attitude I see often here, I have worked towards the job I have now where I don't stress, can show up a little late with no problem, and when I want a break I read a book for a few minutes before getting back into my work (which is in IT). I also take long lunches at the gym, so I keep myself in shape.
But how does this apply to the people here? I have managed expectations here that people know I take a longer lunch, they know I don't take cr@p from anyone, I don't worry about kissing anyone's butt, but with all of that they come to me because they know I do good work. There was even the time they were concerned I was going to quit and pre-emptively talked with me to make sure that didn't happen. Anyway, if people feel so bad about their job, why don't they take this attitude at work? I did, and it makes working, if not a joy, at least I feel good every day I go in. That feeling of knowing you could walk away any day and not worry about it is great. And many people will respect you for this attitude.
Anyway, this is my way of dealing with the issue of work and a paycheck. For those that really want ERE, thats a great goal for them. But I think some gravitate to the idea of ERE to escape the workplace without at least considering there are other ways to get that measure of freedom in their life.
But how does this apply to the people here? I have managed expectations here that people know I take a longer lunch, they know I don't take cr@p from anyone, I don't worry about kissing anyone's butt, but with all of that they come to me because they know I do good work. There was even the time they were concerned I was going to quit and pre-emptively talked with me to make sure that didn't happen. Anyway, if people feel so bad about their job, why don't they take this attitude at work? I did, and it makes working, if not a joy, at least I feel good every day I go in. That feeling of knowing you could walk away any day and not worry about it is great. And many people will respect you for this attitude.
Anyway, this is my way of dealing with the issue of work and a paycheck. For those that really want ERE, thats a great goal for them. But I think some gravitate to the idea of ERE to escape the workplace without at least considering there are other ways to get that measure of freedom in their life.
@HSpenser,
You asked why it changed (culturally speaking), and I think that part of it is the demise of that great engine of conformity, compulsory military service. This is no knock on the military, but most people today were never truly forced to accept undesireable circumstance, obey, and at least feign some enthusiasm for it, if not gratitude (apart from compulsory education and occasional jury duty of course).
You asked why it changed (culturally speaking), and I think that part of it is the demise of that great engine of conformity, compulsory military service. This is no knock on the military, but most people today were never truly forced to accept undesireable circumstance, obey, and at least feign some enthusiasm for it, if not gratitude (apart from compulsory education and occasional jury duty of course).
@JasonR
"There are still days I yearn to bathe in the blood of idiot clients"
Ahhh yes! But I think I still prefer to boil mine. There was a novelty item circulating a few years back; an urn with the inscription "Ashes of Problem Clients". In keeping with ERE though, rather than purchasing such an item, probably best as a DIY project?
"There are still days I yearn to bathe in the blood of idiot clients"
Ahhh yes! But I think I still prefer to boil mine. There was a novelty item circulating a few years back; an urn with the inscription "Ashes of Problem Clients". In keeping with ERE though, rather than purchasing such an item, probably best as a DIY project?
I think the question you have posed is a generational one. The world exists to screw over Generation X in a way Boomers could never understand.
In my work life, which began when I was 14, I've had probably thirty or more jobs. I have not actively hated a few of them. One or two even offered some personal and professional growth. But the VAST majority were dead end and soul crushing.
How can I have pride in a job where it's my duty to be abused by people just as long as we don't lose the business? Your employer doesn't care that the client is physically/sexually threatening you, we just can't lose that money! Not that it matters to your compensation because they will keep you at the lowest rung on the totem pole as long as they can, and when you do manage to claw your way up someone below you will quit and to prove you're a team player you get to have all kinds of extra responsibility with zero additional benefits. Gots to make sure the boss is going to get his bonus, dontcha know?
The recession in the 70's really can't compare to what we're in for these days. Generation X should be in their prime earning years. And they need to be, to pay off those student loans. Meanwhile we're looking at a depression that will hit us harder and longer than anything that happened in the 70's.
Boomers (thanks again!) destroyed most of the social safety nets and community supports that would have offered a little comfort. So now we get to rebuild those from scratch at a time when we have to work twice as hard to make ends meet. And the entire time Generation X is doing this we will be compared unfavorably the the generations before and after us.
I agree that a lot of Xer's made poor decisions about housing/cars/student debt, but your generation was actively protected from making bad decisions instead of enticed into bad decisions by older people that wanted to line their pockets. Heck, I'm doing better than many in my cohort and the anger still burns a hole in my stomach.
I'm going to go listen to some Nirvana.
In my work life, which began when I was 14, I've had probably thirty or more jobs. I have not actively hated a few of them. One or two even offered some personal and professional growth. But the VAST majority were dead end and soul crushing.
How can I have pride in a job where it's my duty to be abused by people just as long as we don't lose the business? Your employer doesn't care that the client is physically/sexually threatening you, we just can't lose that money! Not that it matters to your compensation because they will keep you at the lowest rung on the totem pole as long as they can, and when you do manage to claw your way up someone below you will quit and to prove you're a team player you get to have all kinds of extra responsibility with zero additional benefits. Gots to make sure the boss is going to get his bonus, dontcha know?
The recession in the 70's really can't compare to what we're in for these days. Generation X should be in their prime earning years. And they need to be, to pay off those student loans. Meanwhile we're looking at a depression that will hit us harder and longer than anything that happened in the 70's.
Boomers (thanks again!) destroyed most of the social safety nets and community supports that would have offered a little comfort. So now we get to rebuild those from scratch at a time when we have to work twice as hard to make ends meet. And the entire time Generation X is doing this we will be compared unfavorably the the generations before and after us.
I agree that a lot of Xer's made poor decisions about housing/cars/student debt, but your generation was actively protected from making bad decisions instead of enticed into bad decisions by older people that wanted to line their pockets. Heck, I'm doing better than many in my cohort and the anger still burns a hole in my stomach.
I'm going to go listen to some Nirvana.
You could turn the question around ask why so many people were so keen on holding a job in your time. I think it's easy and common to fall into the trap of thinking that "how I and people around me live their lives is 'normal'", and anything else requires an explanation in order to understand it. We all do it all the time without realizing it, assuming things to be true and right, just because that's been your experience.
But it's not as if the M-F 40-hour work week is the natural state of man and the latest generation is somehow reinventing itself.
How people spend their lives changes a lot with the decades. Now-a-days, most people spend their lives building careers and job hopping. Before them people spent their lives with one company for 30 years. Before that people spent their whole lives practically as slave laborers risking death every day in the factory and fighting for unions and pay that would cover more than just their food bill. Before that people actually were slaves and slave drivers and almost everyone else was a farmer just trying to get by.
I bet the small farmers of yester-year would look at how people have lived for the past 60-70 years and be flummoxed. Asking, "Why would you give up your land and the power of providing for yourself just to take orders from someone in exchange for your supper?" Giving up your farm and going to work in a factory in their day was the mark of failure and a last resort.
That said, I think you'd find plenty of young people today who identify with their jobs, revel in their increased status with each promotion and pat on the back, and who are happiest when they're working. Except, today they don't think they'll work until they're 60, they assume they'll be at it until they're 68 or 70, depending upon whatever social security tells them to do. But you're unlikely to find those types hanging around a place like this
But it's not as if the M-F 40-hour work week is the natural state of man and the latest generation is somehow reinventing itself.
How people spend their lives changes a lot with the decades. Now-a-days, most people spend their lives building careers and job hopping. Before them people spent their lives with one company for 30 years. Before that people spent their whole lives practically as slave laborers risking death every day in the factory and fighting for unions and pay that would cover more than just their food bill. Before that people actually were slaves and slave drivers and almost everyone else was a farmer just trying to get by.
I bet the small farmers of yester-year would look at how people have lived for the past 60-70 years and be flummoxed. Asking, "Why would you give up your land and the power of providing for yourself just to take orders from someone in exchange for your supper?" Giving up your farm and going to work in a factory in their day was the mark of failure and a last resort.
That said, I think you'd find plenty of young people today who identify with their jobs, revel in their increased status with each promotion and pat on the back, and who are happiest when they're working. Except, today they don't think they'll work until they're 60, they assume they'll be at it until they're 68 or 70, depending upon whatever social security tells them to do. But you're unlikely to find those types hanging around a place like this
Wage slavery... I dislike being financially at the mercy/whims of others.
Large organizations mean the axe can come from a variety of places. Your value to different parts of an organization is highly subjective. Highly valuable to one entity, but replaceable in the eyes of another. The joys of politics, power plays, etc.
Employers expect loyalty, but it's not often returned. They want two weeks notice, but when it's your turn, odds are you'll be done without any.
As others noted, if someone leaves, your expected to pick up their load or part of it. Sometimes the position isn't filled for months, sometimes not all. In addition to "load" your expected to keep up with all the changes in technology on your own time, great if your already doing 50+ hours per week.
Why anyone would want to spend life like this until they turn 70 is a mystery to me. I don't need the stress, the chaos, the politics/petty games, etc., and when I don't need the money any longer... it will be done.
Large organizations mean the axe can come from a variety of places. Your value to different parts of an organization is highly subjective. Highly valuable to one entity, but replaceable in the eyes of another. The joys of politics, power plays, etc.
Employers expect loyalty, but it's not often returned. They want two weeks notice, but when it's your turn, odds are you'll be done without any.
As others noted, if someone leaves, your expected to pick up their load or part of it. Sometimes the position isn't filled for months, sometimes not all. In addition to "load" your expected to keep up with all the changes in technology on your own time, great if your already doing 50+ hours per week.
Why anyone would want to spend life like this until they turn 70 is a mystery to me. I don't need the stress, the chaos, the politics/petty games, etc., and when I don't need the money any longer... it will be done.
@HSpencer- I can completely agree with just about everything you said in your original post. I'm 26 and I'm scared that my generation is out there in the work force. I was raised "old school"--I am the oddball compared to many of my peers. I have already started a successful business and work my a$$ off because I don't intend to work forever. Many of my friends prefer to sit around and play Xbox all day and work contract jobs. They think they are above hard work and getting their hands dirty. They won't do what it takes to make ends meet when things get hard. Until I started my business late last year, I worked two jobs that totalled around 60 hours per week, one of which was waiting tables at a restaurant I wasn't excited to tell people I worked at. Between both jobs I made around $40k last year, but I was smart enough to save and start my business. You know what my peers are doing? I have a friend who quit an accounting job making $70k+ a year mid-recession because it "just wasn't his thing anymore". Idiot. Much of my generation is ungrateful, and thinks everything is just handed to them.
What do I attribute this to? It all ties quite well into Jacob's book, to be honest. Improvements in technology over the last 50 years, combined with continual economic growth for almost 3 straight decades led people to think they were entitled whatever they wanted. They DESERVE it! I work hard...I deserve to drive a BMW, don't I? And so goes the cycle. The baby boomers started down this path in the late 80's all the way until 2008. Consumer goods are churned out by society--money is no longer valued the way it once was. Money has become like every other product in our society--disposable. People have the same outlook on jobs, and employers look at their workers that way as well. Attention spans have progressively grown shorter. Working the same job for over 5 years now is an eternity. Scrap that job, on to the next. Also, it should be noted that many companies still throw money around frequently as well, making you feel like crap if you don't work for them. I live in Seattle--all I seem to hear about these days are tech jobs...Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. These companies give outrageous benefits packages and compensation--now everyone thinks it's normal, when it isn't, and shouldn't be.
That's just my $.02...
What do I attribute this to? It all ties quite well into Jacob's book, to be honest. Improvements in technology over the last 50 years, combined with continual economic growth for almost 3 straight decades led people to think they were entitled whatever they wanted. They DESERVE it! I work hard...I deserve to drive a BMW, don't I? And so goes the cycle. The baby boomers started down this path in the late 80's all the way until 2008. Consumer goods are churned out by society--money is no longer valued the way it once was. Money has become like every other product in our society--disposable. People have the same outlook on jobs, and employers look at their workers that way as well. Attention spans have progressively grown shorter. Working the same job for over 5 years now is an eternity. Scrap that job, on to the next. Also, it should be noted that many companies still throw money around frequently as well, making you feel like crap if you don't work for them. I live in Seattle--all I seem to hear about these days are tech jobs...Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. These companies give outrageous benefits packages and compensation--now everyone thinks it's normal, when it isn't, and shouldn't be.
That's just my $.02...
@Redsted Impressions of differences in generations must be very subjective. In my experience, most of the 20 somethings I hang out with through school and work are educated, incredibly bright, talented, accomplished, moral and ambitious people.
Whereas, aside from the exceptions of a couple good older friends and a successful uncle or two, most of the 50+ year olds I know are family, uncles/aunts and extended cousins and such. And of them, many are on disability or SS, are drunkards, have a history of drug abuse, gamble away their pay checks or benefits, are divorced, have zero savings, are or have been incarcerated, have children scattered around from different partners and former spouses who have their own problems from growing up how they did, they're all generally in poor health, and they tell me amazing stories of their youth and the unbelievably risky behavior they engaged in, putting their own and other people's lives at risk. And all their problems are always someone else's fault.
So I just get slack-jawed when I hear about the 'problem youth of today' expecting everything to be handed to them. 50+ year olds have been partying their whole lives running up the credit card that they now expect 20 somethings to pay off, and they have the nerve to call them lazy? I already wrote about this stuff here.
I think one of the reasons people believe generations are different is because of where we encounter people from those generations. Most of the 20 somethings I know are ivy-educated lawyers and professionals. The 50+ somethings I know are deadbeats.
I can see though, if you're 50 and successful, most of your friends will be successful too since you know them through work or your cushy neighborhood, so you'll look around and say, "Hey, look at all these successful 50 year olds." But then the 20 year olds you know will just be kind of random. So of course they won't be of the high caliber you're use to seeing from your peers and you'll proceed to deride the upcoming generation. Just like I do when I deride all the old people. I don't know how we survived with those guys at the helm
Whereas, aside from the exceptions of a couple good older friends and a successful uncle or two, most of the 50+ year olds I know are family, uncles/aunts and extended cousins and such. And of them, many are on disability or SS, are drunkards, have a history of drug abuse, gamble away their pay checks or benefits, are divorced, have zero savings, are or have been incarcerated, have children scattered around from different partners and former spouses who have their own problems from growing up how they did, they're all generally in poor health, and they tell me amazing stories of their youth and the unbelievably risky behavior they engaged in, putting their own and other people's lives at risk. And all their problems are always someone else's fault.
So I just get slack-jawed when I hear about the 'problem youth of today' expecting everything to be handed to them. 50+ year olds have been partying their whole lives running up the credit card that they now expect 20 somethings to pay off, and they have the nerve to call them lazy? I already wrote about this stuff here.
I think one of the reasons people believe generations are different is because of where we encounter people from those generations. Most of the 20 somethings I know are ivy-educated lawyers and professionals. The 50+ somethings I know are deadbeats.
I can see though, if you're 50 and successful, most of your friends will be successful too since you know them through work or your cushy neighborhood, so you'll look around and say, "Hey, look at all these successful 50 year olds." But then the 20 year olds you know will just be kind of random. So of course they won't be of the high caliber you're use to seeing from your peers and you'll proceed to deride the upcoming generation. Just like I do when I deride all the old people. I don't know how we survived with those guys at the helm
Thanks to everyone who has posted. Your comments are extremely interesting. I am now tempted to add "abusive baby boomers" to my list of the military and the internet.
As I was reading all the comments, something popped in my mind:
Generational Echo. This simply means that the last generation cannot figure out why the current generation is doing what it is doing. That echos back through the founding of America. However the pace has increased with every generation. Like the span would be starting in the 1800's you worked the farm, lived with mom and dad and grandma and grandpa in the same house and you did what you did, because you knew nothing much else. (Goodnight Jim Bob Walton?) In 2011, as pointed out in the posts, everything can be known that is known. Ok, Generational Echo--I like the term. So we are building forward. The question is are we winning or losing?
It may prove interesting to have someone do an analysis of all the comments. A summary so to speak. I wonder if Surio, our resident auditor, would be the one to do it?
As I was reading all the comments, something popped in my mind:
Generational Echo. This simply means that the last generation cannot figure out why the current generation is doing what it is doing. That echos back through the founding of America. However the pace has increased with every generation. Like the span would be starting in the 1800's you worked the farm, lived with mom and dad and grandma and grandpa in the same house and you did what you did, because you knew nothing much else. (Goodnight Jim Bob Walton?) In 2011, as pointed out in the posts, everything can be known that is known. Ok, Generational Echo--I like the term. So we are building forward. The question is are we winning or losing?
It may prove interesting to have someone do an analysis of all the comments. A summary so to speak. I wonder if Surio, our resident auditor, would be the one to do it?
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Robert Muir
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:15 pm
Re: Jobs - The best thing anyone can do for their job success is to work their ass off 'til they don't *need* the job.
The supposed benefits the "Greatest Generation" and many of the Boomers enjoyed, weren't really a safety net, they were rather the bars of a cell. Once you had a few years at a company, you were locked in. Trapped.
The military is similar. The make/break decision in the military is usually at the 8-year mark. At 8, when deciding to reenlist, you're actually deciding whether to stay for 20 or not. Unlike the civilian golden handcuffs, at least it's only 20 in the military.
The ability of the X and Y gens to move around from job to job easily is both a benefit and a challenge. The benefit is obviously that they're not locked into being a wage slave to the "man". With no debt and a decent emergency fund, crap doesn't have to be taken. When a manager becomes too unreasonable, (sticking you with a departed co-worker's work indefinitely), then it's easy to threaten to leave and the manager is aware that you can follow up on the threat.
The challenge for the new generations is to focus on the future and not get sucked into short-term thinking. As mikeBOS pointed out, it doesn't matter how old you are, with short-term thinking, there will be no success.
One thing that can be said for the wage slavers, (military and civilian), at least we were forced to think long-term.
If you can take advantage of the new mobility AND cultivate a long-term thinking, now THAT would be #winning! Jacob = example #1.
The supposed benefits the "Greatest Generation" and many of the Boomers enjoyed, weren't really a safety net, they were rather the bars of a cell. Once you had a few years at a company, you were locked in. Trapped.
The military is similar. The make/break decision in the military is usually at the 8-year mark. At 8, when deciding to reenlist, you're actually deciding whether to stay for 20 or not. Unlike the civilian golden handcuffs, at least it's only 20 in the military.
The ability of the X and Y gens to move around from job to job easily is both a benefit and a challenge. The benefit is obviously that they're not locked into being a wage slave to the "man". With no debt and a decent emergency fund, crap doesn't have to be taken. When a manager becomes too unreasonable, (sticking you with a departed co-worker's work indefinitely), then it's easy to threaten to leave and the manager is aware that you can follow up on the threat.
The challenge for the new generations is to focus on the future and not get sucked into short-term thinking. As mikeBOS pointed out, it doesn't matter how old you are, with short-term thinking, there will be no success.
One thing that can be said for the wage slavers, (military and civilian), at least we were forced to think long-term.
If you can take advantage of the new mobility AND cultivate a long-term thinking, now THAT would be #winning! Jacob = example #1.
@Robert Muir
"The military is similar. The make/break decision in the military is usually at the 8-year mark. At 8, when deciding to reenlist, you're actually deciding whether to stay for 20 or not. Unlike the civilian golden handcuffs, at least it's only 20 in the military."
Yeah, that's about right. If one puts in that much, it makes little sense to not go ahead and go for retirement. I did 32 years and never wanted to retire, but in the military, it gets to be a young man's game after your 45 or 50. Even after doing 32 years, I still miss it dearly on a daily basis. I was 48 during Desert Shield/Storm. My partners in crime, who were also Sr Brigade staff, were aged
51 and 59. We made up the Brigade "old folks home". Those were the good old days. Also, being 50+ it got a little hard to roll out of the rack at 0430 and do a 4 mile run in the rain and cold. But you can't ask the youngsters to do it if you don't walk the talk yourself.
@Hickchick
"Meanwhile we're looking at a depression that will hit us harder and longer than anything that happened in the 70's."
Your statement above really impresses me. I find it difficult to squeeze this kind of statement out of anyone. It is refreshing to know that some realize that the USA is heading 90MPH down a dead end street. (We are.) The 70's recession was a gloss over. It got attention for a while, until the Disco music soothed us over, and the glorious 80's made everything alright again. I was personally stunned at the 2008 recession, however, I knew that day was coming. One would have to have been either be in a coma, or just simply stupid to think we could go on financing mega thousand dollar homes for people who made $10.00 an hour. So I well recall that day on Sep 18, 2008, when the Secretary of the Treasury got down on one knee, on National TV, to the Speaker of the House and demanded the billions in bailouts. (Setting the stage for the greatest robbery of citizen money in recorded history.) Round two of that should be showing up in the fall of this year. (We'll see about that, interesting times are ahead.)
"The military is similar. The make/break decision in the military is usually at the 8-year mark. At 8, when deciding to reenlist, you're actually deciding whether to stay for 20 or not. Unlike the civilian golden handcuffs, at least it's only 20 in the military."
Yeah, that's about right. If one puts in that much, it makes little sense to not go ahead and go for retirement. I did 32 years and never wanted to retire, but in the military, it gets to be a young man's game after your 45 or 50. Even after doing 32 years, I still miss it dearly on a daily basis. I was 48 during Desert Shield/Storm. My partners in crime, who were also Sr Brigade staff, were aged
51 and 59. We made up the Brigade "old folks home". Those were the good old days. Also, being 50+ it got a little hard to roll out of the rack at 0430 and do a 4 mile run in the rain and cold. But you can't ask the youngsters to do it if you don't walk the talk yourself.
@Hickchick
"Meanwhile we're looking at a depression that will hit us harder and longer than anything that happened in the 70's."
Your statement above really impresses me. I find it difficult to squeeze this kind of statement out of anyone. It is refreshing to know that some realize that the USA is heading 90MPH down a dead end street. (We are.) The 70's recession was a gloss over. It got attention for a while, until the Disco music soothed us over, and the glorious 80's made everything alright again. I was personally stunned at the 2008 recession, however, I knew that day was coming. One would have to have been either be in a coma, or just simply stupid to think we could go on financing mega thousand dollar homes for people who made $10.00 an hour. So I well recall that day on Sep 18, 2008, when the Secretary of the Treasury got down on one knee, on National TV, to the Speaker of the House and demanded the billions in bailouts. (Setting the stage for the greatest robbery of citizen money in recorded history.) Round two of that should be showing up in the fall of this year. (We'll see about that, interesting times are ahead.)
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jacob
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A very macro observation:
I'm sure everybody is familiar with the fact that elite athletes tend to be born in January or February.
If you consider generations, the boomer generation was an elite generation. They entered the labor market and the subsequent promotion market with comparably little competition.
Followers had to fight an uphill battle because the seats were already taken by boomers.
The boomers could be company-men because they had plenty of room to grow as the world was open and expanding. The following generation became games-men because the world was now of a fixed size and so they had to battle each other.
For many in the current generation, X and Y, they see the world as contracting AND almost everything they value, namely postindustrial stuff like games, music, and experiences, is not nearly as expensive as the industrial stuff like cars and houses valued by the boomers. So why work?
I'm sure everybody is familiar with the fact that elite athletes tend to be born in January or February.
If you consider generations, the boomer generation was an elite generation. They entered the labor market and the subsequent promotion market with comparably little competition.
Followers had to fight an uphill battle because the seats were already taken by boomers.
The boomers could be company-men because they had plenty of room to grow as the world was open and expanding. The following generation became games-men because the world was now of a fixed size and so they had to battle each other.
For many in the current generation, X and Y, they see the world as contracting AND almost everything they value, namely postindustrial stuff like games, music, and experiences, is not nearly as expensive as the industrial stuff like cars and houses valued by the boomers. So why work?
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TheWanderingScholar
- Posts: 650
- Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:04 am
I'm going to give my own personal view on all this since I have a unique perspective being 15, 16 in a couple days. I want don't want to work my life because I hate thinking of being a slave, and I firmly believe in freedom above nearly everything else, be it cars, houses, and other stuff, which frankly I find a hinderance more than anything.
Also I want to experience the world before I die, not stay in the same place for nearly forty years. I mean if I was given a choice between living as an expat living on $1k a month, with bare minimums and a laptop and being the CEO of a company making $100k a year with all the expensive stuff that came with it, I would take the former in heartbeat without a second thought.
But that is my own personal, very mirco opinion on why I don't want a standard job, and life.
Also I want to experience the world before I die, not stay in the same place for nearly forty years. I mean if I was given a choice between living as an expat living on $1k a month, with bare minimums and a laptop and being the CEO of a company making $100k a year with all the expensive stuff that came with it, I would take the former in heartbeat without a second thought.
But that is my own personal, very mirco opinion on why I don't want a standard job, and life.
@Jacob
"The boomers could be company-men because they had plenty of room to grow as the world was open and expanding."
Actually, I believe I can attest to this statement. I was born in 1945, entering the workforce for the first time in 1962, although in a part time job between Jr and Sr high school. As I remember, everything was new and exciting to all age groups, and no one was really found to be dissing anything much. Growth was everywhere in every area. Once I graduated from high school, I worked the summer, enrolled in college the following fall, and was immediately put on a manager trainee program with the company I worked for. I had never made any long term deal with the company up to that time. It seemed a career was a given no matter how you sliced it. At that time, I was dancing carefully around the "draft" thing, so I quickly joined the army reserve so I could finish college. I was balancing college, a job, and the army reserve. Although I did not view it as being difficult, I had three agencies wanting a piece of me, all at once. So, yes your right there was no competition. It was all more or less automatic.
So, back then, for the average bear, the doors were indeed flung open if you wanted them to be, and in particular if you had a few simple connections. In other words, most folks had somewhere to go and something to do, whether they chose it or not. Not much time to think about it either.
One thing I will fully agree with is the world has definitely added people!! Hence your statement that the world has contracted. (I am guilty of adding one (1) people to the world, a daughter, born 1971. She is married, two kids and is a branch bank manager. To me, she turned out a little radical on her views, but that is another case of "Generational Echo".
@YoungAndWise
Thanks for your input!! I think you have just seconded the last part of Jacob's post. Your showing a non attraction to materialism and strong attraction to freedom to live your life.
"The boomers could be company-men because they had plenty of room to grow as the world was open and expanding."
Actually, I believe I can attest to this statement. I was born in 1945, entering the workforce for the first time in 1962, although in a part time job between Jr and Sr high school. As I remember, everything was new and exciting to all age groups, and no one was really found to be dissing anything much. Growth was everywhere in every area. Once I graduated from high school, I worked the summer, enrolled in college the following fall, and was immediately put on a manager trainee program with the company I worked for. I had never made any long term deal with the company up to that time. It seemed a career was a given no matter how you sliced it. At that time, I was dancing carefully around the "draft" thing, so I quickly joined the army reserve so I could finish college. I was balancing college, a job, and the army reserve. Although I did not view it as being difficult, I had three agencies wanting a piece of me, all at once. So, yes your right there was no competition. It was all more or less automatic.
So, back then, for the average bear, the doors were indeed flung open if you wanted them to be, and in particular if you had a few simple connections. In other words, most folks had somewhere to go and something to do, whether they chose it or not. Not much time to think about it either.
One thing I will fully agree with is the world has definitely added people!! Hence your statement that the world has contracted. (I am guilty of adding one (1) people to the world, a daughter, born 1971. She is married, two kids and is a branch bank manager. To me, she turned out a little radical on her views, but that is another case of "Generational Echo".
@YoungAndWise
Thanks for your input!! I think you have just seconded the last part of Jacob's post. Your showing a non attraction to materialism and strong attraction to freedom to live your life.