cbinn's journal

[cbinn]

I've been putting off posting this for a few days because I felt that I didn't have anything "interesting" to say, but now I think I do. But I feel a little weird talking about it because I should introduce myself first and give y'all some background. So I'm gonna do 2 posts in pretty quick succession. The first (intro post) is background and financial nuts and bolts. The second one will be more feelings-y. Read whatever you want

* * *

I'm a pretty introverted guy with a decent amount of social anxiety. I first encountered ERE about 3 years ago, and a large portion of that was spent lurking on these forums. I'm mostly posting here in an effort to get more engaged in the community. To be honest, I'm mostly posting here in an effort to get more engaged in any community. It's funny even to me that I have so much anxiety that posting anonymously on an internet forum is difficult, but there you go.

I plan to cover these topics in later posts:
- My motivation for working towards ERE as a goal
- More specific goal: Semi-ERE vs. ERE vs. MMM vs. what my "normal" was growing up
- I'm worried about the lack of social connections in retirement more than money (mostly due to my personality type)

Financial Status
I'm a grad student, with hopefully pretty good career prospects after grad school. I've got about 60k saved, 50% savings rate, saving about 1k/month. Most of my money is in Vanguard S&P 500 index fund, though I'm going to be building up cash fairly soon so that if I graduate into a recession (which is looking increasingly likely) I'll be able to cope better.

Rough budget (monthly):
Rent: $600 (includes water/garbage)
Food: $150
Misc: $150 (catch-all category for beer, going out to eat, buying shit from Amazon, etc.)
Electricity: $70-ish averaged across a year (includes heat)
Internet: $60
Gym: $45
Cell phone: $25
Laundry: $5

[wolf]

Thanks for the intro post! Looking forward to read your journal. It is great, that you have already saved something. And of course your SR! Congrats. I am also pretty introverted. It is not a bad thing. On the contrary, there are many positive aspects IMO, being introverted.

[cbinn]

@wolf - Thanks I agree. I thought about personality type this morning as a result of a discussion about problem solving with friends last night and decided to post about it here.

* * *

I'll talk about personality type. I'm an introvert. I've taken a few personality tests over the years (myers briggs) and get variable personality traits for everything except I. Basically I'm an IXXX personality type. But I'm consistently quite introverted.

Personality is often thought of in terms of strengths and weaknesses. For example, I'm good at thinking about things but not so great on acting on those thoughts or sharing them with other people. That's part of why I joined the forum - because I want to get a little better at sharing my thoughts. Even in an anonymous internet way

But a different way to think about personality is that we have different traits, each of which has pros and cons. The difference is subtle. Instead of having strengths and weaknesses, we possess traits, which have pros and cons. It's more of a yin-yang thing - two sides of the same coin.

For example, I tend to ruminate on things internally instead of acting quickly. I take a more deliberative approach to acting on my opinions. I hold a deep-seated conviction that in most cases, watching and doing nothing and acting only when needed is the "correct" path. "Correct" in quotes because it's just my way of handling things - not the objectively correct way. Everyone has their own approach and framework for looking at the world. Who am I to say that mine is the best? Mine is the best for me. I look at people who spill all their thoughts and feelings out, bouncing from crisis to crisis, and I think "how can anyone live like that?" But they probably look at me spending most of my time alone in my apartment and think the same.

But I recognize that even this has flaws. "Best" is not synonymous with "perfect". Each trait has pros and cons. A friend of mine (A) is struggling in a romantic relationship, and each person in our friend group handles this situation differently. I am a good listener, but rarely give advice unless explicitly asked. I've been at the receiving end of too much irritating unsolicited advice. Another friend (B) is extremely vocal about her distaste for our friend's SO, and called me out on not saying much about it (politely, in private). As a result of her assertiveness though, our friend A has stopped discussing anything negative about SO with friend B. Another friend (C) is more the idealistic white-knight type, so he shares friend B's distaste for SO and I think wants to be vocal about it, but me saying that we should respect boundaries has made him more reticent to share. I think they are all valid approaches. I'm probably not assertive enough. Friend B is probably too aggressive and makes people clam up. Friend C is probably not vocal enough either, and is not really taken seriously when he does say something because he is seen as naive. But I think it's good to listen, it's good to be vocal about your opinion when you really care, and I think it's good to be idealistic rather than pessimistic. I certainly find it easier to be around optimists than pessimists, anyway... But maybe that's another personal failing on my part

But in the aggregate, we complement each other. Diversity of opinion is crucial to the survival of the community. And it makes life more interesting

* * *

I'm struggling with reconciling my past failures with my present relatively strong position (pretty good savings, steady paycheck, not moving around constantly, doing well in my career, etc.). I was going to post about how I feel uncomfortable being rich, but I thought it came across as douchey and couldn't find a way to frame it in a non-douchey way. So I decided to write this instead. I want to be strong without being arrogant, and humble without being weak. It's a difficult balance.

In the end, I'm not sure where all of this thinking gets me. I ruminate on things for a while and I'm seemingly where I started. But over the years, I think it does build up. When I do decide to say something, people listen. I feel more confident now than a few months ago, I think largely because I've been taking care of my own physical and mental health. I'll post on that later.

[Scott 2]

Your expenses are in great shape for your degree. Keep them up once you start working, FI will happen quickly.

I am highly introverted as well. One of the best places I found to be "social" was yoga class. It tends to select for other introverts, and if you don't talk to anybody, you are a good introspective student.

[wolf]

I'm reading "Quiet" by Susan Cain these days. It is a very good book about introversion. If you haven't heard of it, I recommend you to look it up.

And again, you are not alone with such thoughts and personality traits. There are many who experience similiar things, as it is clearly stated in that book.

[Bankai]

Good post. I've seen friends as well as family members distance themselves or even sever ties due to persistent unsolicited advice. A very important lesson for me was to realise that I'm not able to change another person. Most people only look for empathy or if asking for an opinion, a confirmation of what they already think. Even knowing all this, it's sometimes really hard to just shut up and listen, especially if you think you know the answers. For example, one of my best friends is having pretty serious health issues. He's only 35 and when we first met ~15 years ago, he was in better shape than I ever was in my life. But now, he's borderline obese, has very high cholesterol and had several episodes which were probably panic attacks due to years of very stressful and demanding job & home situation. I could offer him some suggestions which if implemented, could probably sort him out in a matter of months, but he wouldn't listen as these would strike at his identity (i.e. quitting job would hit his 'provider' identity, focusing on own health would hit his 'spending free time with family' identity etc.). I still don't know what the right solution is. Maybe it's to develop the skills to be able to 'sell' your advice packaged nicely, i.e. with a narrative and empathy rather than just a list of facts and if then else statements. Or alternatively, to toughen up to watching people on a crash course and not interfere.

[oldbeyond]

I think that's a wise view on personality - traits, containing good and bad aspects both. Personally I try to round off my worst edges, basically trying to not suck at anything. My introversion brings a lot of good with it which I embrace, but I've also worked at being able to make small talk and making myself heard in a meeting. No one is dying to bump into me at the coffee machine or headhunting me for a sales job, but it works and it improves my life, but also the lives of the people around me because of reduced frustration. Before that I spent some time in the "I am what I am, I won't do anything that's not me"-state(lazy) and then in the "I'm a blank slate, I'll change everything"-state(delusional). I much prefer my current results.

As for giving advice to other people, I try to be interested in their lives and ask questions, and share what I do or have done(not what I plan on doing or wish they were doing). Sometimes they pick something up from me or even ask me for advice. But I guess that's also because I know myself well enough to know that I suck at selling something point blank.

[cbinn]

Long post. It's been a while

@Scott 2 - I'm really considering yoga classes. I sit down all day which is really not good for my back. I figure yoga could help with that. Might also be a decent place to meet cool people. For right now I've been focusing on some weightlifting - I'm definitely the best shape I've been in in my life. The difference is quite stark to me. I figure in another few months when it's warmer out and I'm generally fit enough to focus a little more on flexibility I'll do yoga 1x a week. It's free through my gym, which is nice.

@wolf - I've seen this book but haven't read it. I don't think I fundamentally have an issue with my introversion but sometimes it's difficult to live in a society that seems to prize extroversion. I'm personally totally fine with being an introvert - I think it gives me a lot of strengths that others don't have. But I do struggle with certain aspects of life (getting out of my house to meet people). I'll add this to my reading list I'm re-reading Warren Buffett's biography right now.

@Bankai - Thanks I think empathy and active listening are really important skills to cultivate. I've consciously tried to use these over the past 2 years or so and they've become more unconscious. It's a great thing. I'm also struggling with "selling" ideas. ERE (or even MMM) is so blindingly obviously a good way to live to me, it is frustrating to no end to watch people succumb to careerism and burnout. I don't know what the solution is. It's a Wheaton level thing, I guess. I don't know how to get them from A to D; I've forgotten what being at A is like, or what B even was for me. I guess it was Get Rich Slowly, but really... as soon as I moved out at age 18, I started to learn how to manage money, because I had to. That led to GRS, which, coupled with enough career dissatisfaction, led to MMM, which led here. I don't know if people lack vision or lack a plan or lack dissatisfaction, to paraphrase the ERE book. It's quite agonizing to watch people you care about struggle, but I think struggle is the only way they will start to look for another path forward.

@oldbeyond - if you have any books/blogs/strategies/etc for small talk, I'm all ears. It's probably one of my worst skills. I like to have more meaningful conversations, but this is sort of rude/awkward with total strangers. I'd like to get to know some people better, but I can't really get there. WRT advice, I try to lead by example, not by selling via unsolicited advice. Again this can be quite agonizing, when you know at least one solution to their problem and they refuse to accept it. But that's what being empathic and understanding is for. At the very least, you can support them emotionally.

* * *

These past couple weeks have been enlightening.

As I mentioned in my post in the "Introduce Yourself" forum, I began to learn about money from Get Rich Slowly, then moved to MMM, then moved to here. I guess a lot of people make that kind of journey. For me, it was partly forced by circumstances (I've ended up with less money than I thought I'd have over the years) and partly becoming more "enlightened" for lack of a better term. Knowledge is only part of it... I think you need to view that knowledge from a different perspective. And as you gain life experience, your perspective matures.

When I first encountered ERE, I already knew about early retirement, so the general precepts with regards to finances were known to me (living below your means). I think what truly separates ERE from MMM-style retirement is a perspective shift from a consumer/budget/money management worldview to a more holistic lifestyle design one. The first time I read Jacob's book, I thought it was written quite arrogantly, actually - he dismissed TV, the 4% rule, and our modern way of life. MMM-style ER is just a way to achieve modern luxury comforts with less money. I suppose you could view ERE the same way, just with higher efficiency, but I think the ultimate ERE lifestyle is actually living life without any money input. In short, I've been overly focused on financials and not enough on living life. I think money management is an obvious starting point from someone coming from a consumerist mindset, and I think MMM is more suited to that. But at some stage of one's personal journey, life is simply more than about managing dollars. An equally ludicrous analogy would be to spend much of your waking life budgeting calories or minutes of your day. It's simply losing the forest for the trees.

Anyway, the first time I read ERE, I thought it was crazy and arrogantly-written (I wasn't ready for it). The second time I read it, I picked up efficiency tips but was very reluctant to see how living on 6k-12k could be possible while maintaining a good standard of living. The third time I read it (about a week ago), something clicked for me. Especially the sections on skills - the hours to gain competence/mastery/expertise, the emphasis on building skills instead of collecting material stuff, the mechanisms by which we learn. The mechanisms by which we learn - that's an important one. I've learned a few skills (chemistry, computer repair, drawing) and I thought back to how I learned those - a mastery of the fundamentals.

The important becomes unimportant and vice-versa; usually this is manifested in a "return to the fundamentals", which--surprise, surprise--turn out to be of fundamental importance.

I thought of that Dune quote:

Muad'Dib learned rapidly because his first training was in how to learn.

A whole world of all the interesting things that I could learn then opened to me. Sounds cheesy, but it was definitely an enlightening moment.

I thought about what kinds of skills I'd like to learn. One sort of obvious one, given that I'm single, was to learn how to date more effectively. I read most of Mate, which has been posted about here. As a result, I've signed up for some martial arts classes (mostly just for fun/fitness; I'm more of a lover than a fighter, but hey, it's good stress relief and it makes me feel more confident). I think I've also realized I've been running from a lot of problems in my life, and have tried to play defense against all of the world's problems with me for too long; I think the mental shift from prey to hunter is one that I'm still struggling with. I may post in greater detail about that later.

* * *

That brings me to today. Regarding financials, I've decided to sell my stock for cash. Here's how I view it. I'm long my career prospects, so it makes sense to have a hedge, given that I'm graduating relatively soon and there's a non-negligible risk of graduating into a recession. I have mixed thoughts on this. I'd guess that in terms of needing money to live, 3 years cash is probably sufficient for a very serious recession/depression. I have about 5-6 years worth of money if I stick to my current budget. So that leaves 2-3 years worth of $$ to invest. I could leave it in the stock market. But I feel that the mental stress would be too much to handle if the stock market is crashing, I'm unemployed, there are no jobs, etc. I see a couple of scenarios possible:

1. I graduate, the economy is fine, I get a job making $$$, I lose out on some gains because I sold for cash too early. (40% prob)
2. I graduate, the economy is not fine, I get a job making $$ and/or the job kind of sucks, I am grateful to have backup options (cash saved) but I don't need to draw it down. I lose out on some gains. (40% prob)
3. I graduate, the economy is in the toilet, I have no job, and I need to rely on savings to survive until the economy bounces back. Interest rates are near or at or below zero, so I can't live off of "risk-free" money. I'd need to draw down from my cash horde or go in the market for some dividends. Or a mix of both. (20% prob)

The high chance of losing out on some gains is worth the tradeoff to me in order to avoid catastrophic failure (needing to draw down a crashing portfolio). So I pulled the plug. Time will tell if I made the "right" choice.

* * *

Considering scenario #3 triggered some thoughts for me. If I had to, how could I reduce my budget to become financially independent using my savings upon graduation? Car camping seems interesting. I read a blog post somewhere about converting a Honda SUV to a camper. I'd totally be willing to do that - it would be cheap housing, and I could probably sign up for something like Anytime Fitness for exercise and showering in many US cities. I think it would be kind of fun, actually. But it got me thinking about what I would really need in that case. It also made me realize how simply luxurious my current apartment is (lots of room, my own bathroom/shower, kitchen appliances, a big bed, a couch...). Circling back to my earlier point, it makes me realize how little I need to live on (I should buy less crap) and I should look into Jacob's tip to check out boat living...

[Cheepnis]

Hi cbinn, much of what you wrote resonated very strongly with me. Below a quoted a few choice bits that I could have wrote.

I'm a pretty introverted guy with a decent amount of social anxiety.

It's funny even to me that I have so much anxiety that posting anonymously on an internet forum is difficult, but there you go.

I'm making a very concerted effort to be an active member here. So far I've been able to make a weekly update in my journal this year and respond in some others. However my involvement here, on other forums and even in "real life" situations would be much higher if I contributed what I was thinking more often. My online posting volume would probably triple if I stopped deleting most of the things I write.

want to be strong without being arrogant, and humble without being weak. It's a difficult balance.

This is something I struggle with as well and I don't know where that balance lies. There are things I understand I am objectively good (or even great) at, yet I have a hard time taking credit for them. I've never been good a receiving compliments. Even the simplest comment is overwhelming and makes me self-conscious. This dates all the way back to my early childhood when I was around 5-6 and my grandma would make clothes for me. I was supposed to go in the bathroom and put these shorts on with airplanes on them, or that shirt with boats on it. I hated coming out of the bathroom and having all eyes* on me. Hated it.

*just my mom's and grandma's

Basically I'm unsure if this is a learned deficiency or not. Regardless I still struggle with it today. How can I be knowledgeable on a topic without being condescending? or great at an activity without being a show-off? In practice these conundrums cause me to underplay any expertise I have and sit on any strengths I possess.

I've tried dipping my toes in the whole "confidence of my abilities" thing in my own journal and I feel like a bit of an arrogant prick still.

I ruminate on things for a while and I'm seemingly where I started.

Yup. Been there.

---

Anyway, you seem to be in a great position and I wish you the best upon graduating. I look forward to your next update.

[cbinn]

@Cheepnis - I've learned to just say "oh, thanks!" to compliments. I feel your pain when it comes to awkwardness in accepting praise. Like any other habit, you must change from unconscious uncomfortableness -> conscious comfortableness -> unconscious comfortableness. I still need to consciously accept praise, but I've noticed that my active listening skills have progressed to unconscious comfortableness. Once you've learned to do this with a few different habits, it becomes an easier abstract thing to reflect on, and implement.

In terms of small talk (maybe others struggle with this too). Here are a couple tips that I've gathered that I want to get better about implementing. The main one is to change your mindset. I've somehow seen this tip three different ways in three different places in the past couple weeks. It's probably been bombarding me my whole life, but it is very strange how when you become ready to accept an idea, it suddenly clicks. Anyway, one way of viewing it came from the latest Star Trek show ("Star Trek Discovery" - admittedly not an excellent show, but it's not bad). One of the characters is an alien whose species has fear as their primary instinct because they are the prey species on their planet. Eventually, the character undergoes biological development unheard of in his species in which his organs creating this biological fear response fall out and his mindset changes from prey to non-prey (I called it "prey" to "hunter" in my earlier post, but "hunter" I think is too strong, because it conveys a predatory nature). The second way I saw the same thing was in reading "Mate". The book is about how to be better at attracting and talking to women. The author's tip was to change from a mindset of an interloper to a host (i.e., a host at a party). Instead of feeling awkward and nervous, you put yourself in a mindset of making her feel welcome, comfortable, and at ease. The third way I saw this was in the new Jack Ryan TV series on Amazon. The main character is kind of a nerdy type B guy, but is of course a buff (but not too buff) ex-Marine with a Ph.D. in economics who goes around saving the world. Sort of a nerd's modern fantasy hero. Anyway, he's being sort of wishy-washy about texting this girl he likes, and another character tells him to be the wolf, not the sheep. Again I prefer the second metaphor (party host) because the "wolf" thing implies sort of a predatory nature rather than a confident, comfortable and welcoming one.

* * *

I've always been pretty introspective and curious about how my own brain functions, but I'm not a psychologist and have found it difficult to find and understand a theory that I could comprehend and actually believe and act on. So I was very interested when I came across this post of Jacob's. Specifically, the "Kegan structure" thing - what is this? Sounds like Wheaton levels of social understanding? That's what I've been looking for for a while...

Here are a couple of essays that summarize it in layman's terms. I found the original language of Kegan's theory to be pretty incomprehensible, and I'm not an idiot. So maybe those reading this thread may also find these essays helpful.

My personal summary of Kegan's theory of social development/maturity (remember that this is now a third-hand interpretation of a non-expert):
- Stage 1 is a childlike non-distinction between oneself and "other". Essentially, a baby has no concept of itself being separate from its environment; the baby is itself one and the same as its environment in its mind. Empathy is literally impossible because there is no concept of other people, animals, etc.
- Stage 2 (narcissism) is a recognition that the self is separate from the environment, and the environment is something to be exploited for the self's gain. Adults who remain in this stage are selfish and relatively extreme cases are characterized by narcissistic personality disorder. Empathy is at least possible in rare flashes but is generally not intuitively understood because the person does not experience it regularly. Empathy is used more as a manipulative tool rather than a way to understand another person's perspective for its own sake. Stage 3 people (most people in society) view these people as assholes/arrogant/narcissistic/etc.
- Stage 3 (duty) is characterized by empathy, duty, obligation, shame, and guilt. The "other" is recognized and understood to be far more important than the self. Obligations towards religion, society, family, friends, etc. are prioritized, and one's personal values are generally not recognized as separate from the values imposed by the organization one is apart of (society's values, for example, are not distinguished from personally-held values). The self may feel crushed under the weight of others' expectations. Ways to escape or endure these expectations are sought out (essentially, coping mechanisms). Stage 3 people view themselves as law-abiding (or maybe rule-abiding) "good people".
- Stage 4 (freedom) is the recognition that the self and society are both important. I think many stories are based on "breaking out" from stage 3 to stage 4 (Plato's Cave, The Matrix, ERE). The individual recognizes that they have values, rather than being defined by those values. The values that one holds can be exchanged for more appropriate values; this is especially true of values that feel imposed by organizations from stage 3. A separation is kept between society's expectations and one's own values, and freedom to move within and apart from those constrains is created. Empathy is common, but mentally constrained to not overly attach oneself to others. Stage 3 people view stage 4 people as being heretical; stage 4 people view themselves as free.
- Stage 5. I don't have a nice, clean definition because I haven't found a good explanation, and because it's not quite comprehensible to me considering I'm still working on achieving stage 4. My best interpretation is sort of the Buddhist "enlightenment", where everything is accepted but nothing is held on to. Freedom is not intentionally created, because it simply exists everywhere. Restraints are not needed, either to keep values out or to keep values in. A detached empathy with everything/everyone is common, viewing oneself as connected to the world rather than thinking of oneself as the world (stage 1), the most important thing in the world (stage 2), needing to be a good cog in the machine of the world (stage 3), or being separate but cooperating with the world (stage 4).

Here's my personal metaphor. I'll skip stage 1. Stage 2 is like wielding a sword; needlessly aggressive and anti-social. Stage 3 is putting on armor to endure abuse, without understanding the abuse really comes from within. Turtling up within the armor is doing more harm than good. Stage 4 is taking off the armor, recognizing that some of one's values are different from society's, keeping society's values at a healthy distance and putting up a fence between the self and society's values while creating the space to experience one's own personal values. Stage 5 is removing the fence and letting the values roll around freely, and not really needing to create space between the self and "society" because one is comfortable in any environment.

Personally, I'd say I'm halfway between stage 3 and 4. I think you can see this in my writing above. The struggle to move from stage 3 to 4 has been a relatively recent one (a few weeks).