7Wannabe5-Take 5

Where are you and where are you going?
chenda
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by chenda » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:24 am

Superb work.

I find as I journey into minimalism it becomes a life philosophy, and the principles can be applied to so many other things. Finance, grooming, martial arts, relationships, religion...its like a life secret.

There's a spiritual purity in minimalism.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:59 pm

@vexed87@chenda:

Thanks!

However, I don't think spiritual purity is exactly what I am gaining from the exercise. More like maximum fulcrum. Not a complete coincidence that my current level of minimalism also represents maximum load I could easily toss into any Uber I might call to take me to the nearest/cheapest hostel after I say "FU. I will do as I please!" to any Calorie King with whom I am currently riding sidecar. In fact, I pretty much did just that this morning. Then the Calorie King got back on his end of the see-saw with a better attitude, so I didn't even have to call the Uber :D

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by jennypenny » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:24 pm

@7W5--I understand what you're saying so don't take this as criticism. I'm asking because I assume there's a sweet spot somewhere ...

Do you worry that your ability to pack up and leave any situation in a matter of minutes makes you more prone to leaving? Do you think you could end up in a situation where you leave because it's easy to leave, only to realize later that you should have stuck it out?

People used to argue that it was good to get married because the drudgery of divorce made partners try harder to work things out. While I think that's overkill, having most of your possessions packed and ready 24/7 might have a deleterious effect on a relationship long term.

I've wondered this about ERE ... if the ability to leave a situation makes people more prone to leave (which could be a negative). People who tend to bail too quickly might end up living their lives like ping pong balls. For them, minimalism might fuel unhealthy impulses.

Maybe I should ask this in one of the minimalism threads instead of clogging up your journal.

classical_Liberal
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by classical_Liberal » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:01 pm

jennypenny wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:24 pm
I've wondered this about ERE ... if the ability to leave a situation makes people more prone to leave (which could be a negative). People who tend to bail too quickly might end up living their lives like ping pong balls. For them, minimalism might fuel unhealthy impulses.
Sorry for interrupting and I'm very curios to read 7WB5's response to this as well.

This is an uber-interesting internal debate I've been having with myself for quite some time. The correct answer is... it depends....

I think it's very personality dependent. JP is suggesting personal growth in the same way a person would attempt to put self in a position to for growth in weak areas of skill. IOW, if someone is prone to quick, emotional decision making. Then later regrets those decisions, JP may be on to something.

OTOH, someone whose personality is such that feeling trapped makes productive happiness impossible, then the opposite is true. Particularly, if this persons isn't prone to rash decisions. I fall into this camp.

Here's how I explain my inherent distaste for marriage to my GF. Marriage would create an artificial barrier to ending our relationship. Huge financial, legal, and lifestyle complications exist should we wish to end it. Without marriage, I wake up every single day and get to choose to stay with you, because I love you and it's what I want, even if we have a tough day. If we are married I would wake up every day and feel forced to stay with you, due to the above mentioned issues. Even on the good days, this would be a splinter in the back of my mind. Eventually, resentment will build and my mind will create unhappiness where, if I felt free to choose, none would otherwise exist.

I suppose a psychologist would label this type of personality as some form of disorder. These feelings exist in my earliest childhood memories, not due to trauma. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to modify my way of thinking. I believe this to be core to my personality, essentially hardware.

So, I can:
a) Accept it, take it into consideration prior to commitments, and arrange for a free, happy life.
b) Follow the crowd commit, suffer through, be miserable, and possibly end good things in life simply because I feel trapped.

I'm going with "a" for now on.

Jason
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by Jason » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:55 am

I don't argue with this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MImNGJNcvIc

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7Wannabe5
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:37 pm

jennypenny wrote:Do you worry that your ability to pack up and leave any situation in a matter of minutes makes you more prone to leaving? Do you think you could end up in a situation where you leave because it's easy to leave, only to realize later that you should have stuck it out?
No, quite the opposite. In fact, my current practice was in good part purposefully developed due to my prior tendency towards sticking it out too long. I like to think of myself as a tough, flexible, resilient, bouncy individual; kind of like the human equivalent of silly-putty, but I know that others often experience me as being more of an impressionable, malleable, undefended, fun, hand-warmed, round bit of soft-touch. Also, I suffer from the maternal tendency towards treating men like wet-eyed puppy dogs I semi-rescued from the pound.

So, when I wake up from my absent-minded daze enough to notice that a man is behaving like a total jerk, I need to be able to make my next move while I am still in my cold-rational-anger mode (relatively small adult masculine quadrant:represented by spirit animal Snowy Owl) and before I lapse into either of my relatively larger and more accessible quadrants (the adult feminine: represented either by Deer or Cow, somewhat depending on my current bra-size and estrogen levels OR the juvenile masculine: represented by the Monkey.) The reason being that the Snowy Owl is the part of my personality that looks out for my juvenile feminine quadrant: represented by the Bunny.

Anyways, I understand that you are suggesting that by traveling light, I might be making it easier for my Monkey to shove my Bunny into its backpack, and that is something I have been guilty of in the past, but I believe I am fairly self-aware about that tendency, and it is not relevant in a situation where I am dealing with a man who was calculating how inexpensive keeping me is versus purchasing a high-end sex robot. Although, I would note that I just thought that was funny, and I kind of bring that sort of behavior unto myself. What he did to piss me off was much more offensive and verging on last straw.

enigmaT120
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by enigmaT120 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:48 pm

Glen Campbell?

"It's knowin' that your door is always open
And your path is free to walk
That makes me tend to leave my sleepin' bag
Rolled up and stashed behind your couch"

That's sure not where I am. Good luck to you, 7wb5!

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by jacob » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:51 pm

In quantitative investing/trading, these considerations are handled by "slop bands". Naively, one would go long if value>price, but in reality, the equation is value>price+fee+slop. Here value and slop are subjective but fee and price are objective. The slop is there to prevent you from either being more volatile than you should be ... or more sticky than you should be.

I think both concerns are considered above. We can divide this into internal/external concerns. If you're internally twitchy, then it makes sense to insert an external slop to curb your enthusiasm which would be objectively overreacting. For example, someone prone to overreactions would do better with external slop/restrictions ... something that's costly to exit (or enter); such as marriage.

Conversely, someone who is prone to underreacting, that is, stick with a poor situation for too long ... or avoid getting into better situation for the same reason would be best off with zero slop ... or even negative slop. Negative slop could come in the form of having a default exit lest active effort is made and paid for.

Both objectively change the behavior. The question is whether it's for the better. External slop is a rather heavy-handed way of doing it but the only alternative is increased internal complexity.

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by Jason » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:53 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:37 pm
I might be making it easier for my Monkey to shove my Bunny into its backpack
So your monkey is also a minimalist?

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7Wannabe5
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:58 pm

Jason wrote:So your monkey is also a minimalist?
Yes, my juvenile masculine quadrant= the Monkey= 12 year old Tom Sawyer. I have a lot of juvenile masculine energy for a 53 year old female, so that means I highly value Freedom and Fun. My adult masculine quadrant= the Snowy Owl is not nearly as large, so I don't as often seek Power or Control or Mastery or Authority or Respect. However, it was my desire to secure my overall masculine functioning at least at the level of an independent high-functioning 12 year old boy whistling down a path with a jackknife and a pouch full of pennies in his pocket that caused me to join this forum. The Snowy Owl is the part of me that is most like a 5/INTJ, but I know that I will never really be able to grow it up completely.

So, for example, if I heard myself laughing and saying "What the fuck?" to myself while choosing to have sex with a man on a first date, that would be an example of my Monkey shoving my Bunny into its back-pack, because I would be valuing fun in the moment over protecting myself from the feeling I might have when I woke up the next morning if I was dating young men with serious intention of forming long-term committed relationship.

@jacob:

Exactly. I read somewhere that serial monogamists are people who don't say "Next!" or filter quickly enough, although they are often believed to do the opposite. My maximum time staying single/celibate is about 3 months, and prior to declaring myself polyamorous, my average time actively dating before ending up with a new BF was about 3 weeks, EVEN though I followed conventional advice of never chasing or asking men out first and not having sex until after 3rd date. The practice of polyamoury was actually functioning as pretty good slop for me until I let it slide. I told my BF this morning that I should NOT even have listened to him on the occasion when he said that he deserved to have me to himself, because just guilt-inducing bullshit with no backing.

Part of my problem is that because I like to believe in agency, I sometimes assign myself even more than 50% of responsibility for the fucked up failure of contract between two adults.

@enigmaT120:

SnowyOwl says that if Glen Campbell is feeling free to come and go stash his sleepin' bag behind the Bunny's couch, then he best be prepared to pay her AirBnB one night rate :evil:

@jennypenny:

My temperament is such that if I am finally provoked into reaction after about 3 in the afternoon, I usually cry first, and then wake up the next morning in cold angry planning happy future without him mode. So, there is a window of opportunity for him to get back under my skin on my good side before I make my exit, and based on past experience, very little good has come to me by allowing that window to stay open very long. Far more likely that my regret 10 years down the road will be "Dating him in the first place" rather than "Leaving too soon."

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by jacob » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:23 pm

I know that in terms of romantic relationships, careers, and serious sports, ... (wait, are they all the same?! :shock: ) my characteristic timescale of abandonment is ~12 months, in retrospect. That is the time from when I first started having serious doubt to when I finally called it quits, typically after a couple of whipsaws(*).

If we count it in whipsaw time, I suppose my timescale is 1-2 whipsaws.

(*) Fool me once, even twice ... but that's it.

OTOH, I can't really think of anything... well maybe other than becoming an electrical engineer... where in retrospect I felt like I should have stuck with it =>

I should decrease my slop... fill the cup more.

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by Jason » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:02 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:58 pm
my Monkey shoving my Bunny into its back-pack
I think this would be #5 in "The Top 10 Aesop Sexts."

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Bankai
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by Bankai » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:17 pm

Interesting discussion. I'm definitely in the 'sticking for too long' camp. Most big, positive changes in my life happened when I finally got fed up with the status quo and took action. Each time, nothing else was holding me back but myself (fear, justifications, rationalisations etc.). On the other hand, I can't recall any situation where I gained by holding on and sticking with whatever the situation was.

@ 7 - I like making decisions on the next day with a cool head. Trumps saying/doing anything in the heat of the argument any time.

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by CS » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:15 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:58 pm
However, it was my desire to secure my overall masculine functioning at least at the level of an independent high-functioning 12 year old boy whistling down a path with a jackknife and a pouch full of pennies in his pocket that caused me to join this forum. The Snowy Owl is the part of me that is most like a 5/INTJ, but I know that I will never really be able to grow it up completely.
This is something I've always valued - and it has served me well. Having been powerless in infuriating situations as a child, it was my vow to make sure I would never be in that situation again. I don't care about the respect of others (not the same as distaining it) as much as valuing the position that allows me to bar others from dictating cruelties to me.

I think more than anything, having your own income from sources other than BFs would give that freedom for yourself. The mental energy alone that BFs take is considerable. :D
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:58 pm
Far more likely that my regret 10 years down the road will be "Dating him in the first place" rather than "Leaving too soon."
Me too, although since the 'overall masculine functioning' for me has been in place for a long time, and since I have more interests that time as it is, my default has always been to not date at all so I don't have to deal with that situation too often. I would say 70-80% of my adult life was not dating or married. Not sure what kind of slop would be needed to make that more balanced - plus there are ambivalent feelings about 'fixing' the situation.

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:09 am

@jacob:

I think my timescale of abandonment is quite a bit longer in relationships than other realms. Also, in all realms, I think one of my complicating problems is not staying clear on whether I am trading vs. investing. I tell myself that I am just taking a part-time temp job to cover some current cash flow issues and I finally quit for good 6 years later. I tell myself that I am just dating to entertain myself while I focus on my projects and then 3 years later I am in a legal project partnership with one guy I dated, being financially supported by another, and still receiving offers from 3 and 4. None of this is necessarily bad, but ...?

@Jason:

..or Beatrix Potter crossed with Uncle Remus?

@Bankai:

Right, but my default when not upset is probably too easy-going.

@CS:

I do have income from sources other than BFs. I can support myself quite easily at MY spending level through substitute teaching alone. I just can't support myself at 50% of any of my BFs' spending levels on my current income streams. Therefore, to the extent that any of them want me to share their lifestyle with them, they will have to cover the difference. I didn't always think this way, but around 8 years ago, after 20 years in a very egalitarian marriage, I fell pretty madly in love with a much older man whose NW was so much greater than mine, there was no possibility I could ever ante up financially, so I realized that I either had to change my philosophy or purposefully choose to not date men who had/made significantly more money than me, which seems kind of like a ridiculous way to filter.

However, the problem with my current practice is that there are maintenance and transition costs associated with keeping some semblance of the reality of my own independent functioning either operational or on ice, if I am currently being more or less supported by a BF.

Also, repeated experience has proven that I am kidding myself if I think I will last much longer than about 3 months without putting myself back out on the market, because I have a high sex drive and I do enjoy the company of men, even though they are kind of terrible. I think I always tend towards forgetting just how terrible they are, because I grew up with no brothers and a very good, kind, reliable, fun father. I extend way too much benefit of the doubt, and I am far too trusting. I remember one time I was happily following a date to his car in the parking lot, because I had agreed to go to an outdoor concert with him right after our first coffee date, and he said "Aren't you afraid I might lock you in the trunk?" and I honestly answered "Well, NOW I am, but I wasn't thinking about anything like that before."

Jason
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:32 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:09 am
and he said "Aren't you afraid I might lock you in the trunk?"
IMHO, this is the equivalent of telling the NSA "there is no bomb in there" when they are scanning your luggage. They should be treated as though there is a bomb if only because they are a complete asshole for thinking its funny in the first place.

On a somewhat related note, I knew a girl who went through the whole locked in the trunk ordeal (uncle). She was a bi-polar heroin addicted stripper. I'm not saying its the end result of every "been locked in a trunk woman" but you have to think it could have some long term debilitating consequences.

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daylen
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by daylen » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:27 pm

I recall that you were studying for the actuarial exams not too long ago. What happened?

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7Wannabe5
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:22 am

@daylen:

I came to the same conclusion as the last time I took them in my 20s, which is that I am too much of a warm-blooded generalist to do that sort of thing for more than about 12 hours/week maximum. The money doesn't tempt me enough. So, I am going to have to come up with my own project which uses my math and technology skills.

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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by Jason » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:39 am

Perhaps a program for the polyamorous community that crosschecks, sorts and ranks the multiplicity of relational categories with each of their partners. The way you describe it, I don't see how you people have survived without one. You can call it "Sexcel" but that's probably just asking for a lawsuit.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: 7Wannabe5-Take 5

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:18 am

Jason wrote:you people
There are no monogamists in foxholes.

That would be a fun project, but I think somebody already made an app for that. I was considering a futuristic novel in which polyamory has become the accepted norm and history has been revised to reveal the true circles of intimacy (not limited to the strictly sexual) behind the imposed mask of monogamy. It would be entitle something like "Youm." So, for instance, in this future world, a question in Trivial Pursuit might be "Who were the most active members of George Washington's Youm in 1775?" A: Martha Dandridge, Sally Cary, John Adams.

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