Hristo's FI Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Not so much this one, anymore.

ZAFCorrection
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by ZAFCorrection »

Systems are great. Past a certain point of abstraction, I think it is questionable that they have much practical use, at least outside of the individual coming up with them. These systems are also often unfalsifiable, as perceiving gibberish is just an indication that the individual hasn't leveled up enough to understand.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Alphaville »

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 2:41 pm
These systems are also often unfalsifiable, as perceiving gibberish is just an indication that the individual hasn't leveled up enough to understand.
or conversely that they are, in fact, gibberish--like that cod hegelian historicism presented above, from which i quote this glaring white supremacist nonsense (yes, i had to click on the link, and look, because i can't help myself):
Native American Indians were living primarily in the purple vMEME when the Western peoples arrived on the continent
:lol: :lol: :lol:

they must be so grateful for the white savior leveling them up!

anyway, this is besides the fact that rube goldberg ideations are like cocaine for "leveled up" people

---

btw another name for the leveled up in their unfathomable realms could be "mystical spirit beings" or "elders" (red level--who knew?)

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by jacob »

If I hear someone speaking French, I'm perceiving gibberish because I don't understand French. On the other hand, I also see other people who are able to communicate in French. This observation indicates that French is a real and practical language (unlike the random utterances from space aliens one may hear in a scifi movie) and that the reason I don't understand French is not because French is gibberish but that I simply haven't learned enough to understand it.

Spiral dynamics was most famously used to navigate the formation of democracy in post-Apartheid South Africa but has also been used elsewhere (mostly leadership stuff).

In case it may elicit further interest, it does NOT have a Wheaton/Overton structure. The so-called Tier1 are simply arranged by when these value-systems (color-coded) appeared in human history, e.g. red (tribalism), blue (traditionalism), orange (modernism), green (postmodernism). The critical similarity in Tier1 and the reason I figured pointing this out would be helpful is that all Tier1 colors demonstrate a mild hostility to all the other colors (value-system) thinking that their own color is the only acceptable value system and that all others are somehow missing the point.

In that regard, colors are more analogous to personality/temperamental types and having a system makes it more obvious that "others are not simplistic variations of oneself" and that "others are not intentionally hostile, just different".

My crude mistake was in not realizing that presenting this could easily be interpreted as yet another hierarchical value system causing the respective allergic reactions---or worse misunderstood in the Platonic sense that the system is the territory rather than just yet another map (another frequent objection).

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:22 pm
In case it may elicit further interest, it does NOT have a Wheaton/Overton structure. The so-called Tier1 are simply arranged by when these value-systems (color-coded) appeared in human history, e.g. red (tribalism), blue (traditionalism), orange (modernism), green (postmodernism). The critical similarity in Tier1 and the reason I figured pointing this out would be helpful is that all Tier1 colors demonstrate a mild hostility to all the other colors (value-system) thinking that their own color is the only acceptable value system and that all others are somehow missing the point.
Doesn't this then assume that these folks--red, blue, orange, green--are all wrong in thinking that the others' value systems are wrong? Or put another way, that they are wrong in thinking that there is a "right" value system, and that other value systems might contain rays of sunshine, but they are not "right" in the manner that their own value system is right? Is this not all just relativism in the form of historicism? I'm well aware that "this" is a conflict of values; but I'm not disagreeing with some of the views of the "oranges" or "greens" of this forum because I don't understand them or their values, or because of different personality types or whatever; I'm disagreeing because I think their values are wrong--and I think we live in a world of objective truths where someone is in fact wrong, and someone else is in fact right. And no amount of systemization or imagined and fanciful layering on of complexity is going to change the fact that this is all an attempt to pretend as if truth is relative.

And so, my objection to all the WL stuff has been and remains that it strikes me as an attempt to take ERE and turn it into something beyond being simply an effective tool of anti-consumerism and the like, to something having a value system in and of its own, and as an ends in and of itself.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by jacob »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:55 pm
I'm disagreeing because I think their values are wrong--and I think we live in a world of objective truths where someone is in fact wrong, and someone else is in fact right. And no amount of systemization or imagined and fanciful layering on of complexity is going to change the fact that this is all an attempt to pretend as if truth is relative.
Right, so SD explains the why and the how people are disagreeing. For example, if we take the table-format whether it's the SD table above of the EREWL table, these would be the reasons/predictable arguments:

Green: Hierarchies or the implication of levels are wrong, because we're all equal and you can't respect someone as a human being on their own merits if you're putting them in boxes or tables. Humans are complex and too beautiful and special to reduce them to numbers. Everybody needs to be heard. Nobody is better than others.
Orange: Levels?! Yay! Sign me up and tell me where I go to earn merit points so I can climb the hierarchy and earn my merit badge for this table. Is there per chance a short cut to level up faster? How do I play this game best? Can I put it on my CV?
Blue: I'm definitely not opposed to hierarchies or levels as long as we all agree there's only one objectively correct hierarchy, namely "God, Country, Notre Dame" (sorry, I worked at ND as a postdoc once, couldn't resist :mrgreen: ). I understand hierarchies have rules and rules are good, but the only rules that really matter are the true rules and it's better if everybody abides to this.
Red: Who are you to put me in a box or in some stupid table? I'm special, not like the others. I'm going to fight for my right to be me. Rules are for losers. My friends and I are going to fight the system! Freeedom!!

As previously noted, individuals are combinations of colors but usually exhibit a center of gravity. (Similar to temperamental typology.)

So for starters, understanding why and how colors react to values makes it easier to predict what kind of arguments would show up between different valuememes and thus how to avoid, steer around, or resolve them when they bash into each other.

SD also notes that each and all of these have made both positive contributions and negative contributions to humanity. This is basically because they each have very different priorities and different blind spots.

Tier2---and it's probably a mistake to name it as such because it triggers all of the above (After all 2 is bigger than 1 :-P ) for different reasons---is an attempt or desire to recognize the potential for positive and negative contributions from all these potentials and steer the system accordingly. The meta-concept can go really wrong if hijacked by the wrong "cultures", which is also noted. The people who created this are sufficiently aware to realize how their insights can be abused even if their followers may not be. That's part of the insight too.

Add: I didn't answer the original question. But basically how someone would see this also depends on color. For example, green would see they're all equally good, but yellow would say they're all useful in their own way. There's really a lot to cover. I kinda suspect that I'm just adding strawman fuel here, so I'll take a break.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Alphaville »

jacob wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:22 pm
If I hear someone speaking French, I'm perceiving gibberish because I don't understand French. On the other hand, I also see other people who are able to communicate in French. This observation indicates that French is a real and practical language (unlike the random utterances from space aliens one may hear in a scifi

[…]

or worse misunderstood in the Platonic sense that the system is the territory rather than just yet another map (another frequent objection).
i speak french, but when i hear someone speaking a language i don't know, i know that, if it's a language, it can also be explained, taught and learned, translated, acquired by children, etc.

the platonizing is never in the maps themselves, but in the athletic effort to find an image of the territory in the wrong map. e.g. vast tomes of astrology, and detailed astrological charts with mathematical calculations to explain someone's life.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »


Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Kingsnorth’s essay, in my beloved First Things of all places, has left me speechless. All I can say, as is almost always the case after I read Kingsnorth, is: “yeah, what he said.”

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:55 pm
And so, my objection to all the WL stuff has been and remains that it strikes me as an attempt to take ERE and turn it into something beyond being simply an effective tool of anti-consumerism and the like, to something having a value system in and of its own, and as an ends in and of itself.
I think it's easy for just about anything to become "a value system in and of its own", if the person coming to the thing doesn't already have in place a strong value system. I think the more sophisticated the tool, maybe the easier it is for people to fall into the trap of "oh I found it! here's the meaning-making, sense-making lens I've been searching for", and they dive into it and can get lost in it, because something super sophisticated can seem almost mystical. I don't think the WL stuff is an intentional attempt to turn ERE into something beyond a tool, but I certainly see that it's easy to mistake it as the purpose itself.

To me, the blame falls not on the abusable tool, but on the individuals who are searching under every nook and cranny for some way of making sense of The Purpose of It All. Or maybe, more accurately, the blame should fall on a culture that has been relentlessly destroying deep and rich sense- and meaning-making traditions, leaving people to fend for themselves and scurry after scraps of meaning wherever they can find it.

You're a rarity, in that you *have* a very deep rooted sense- and meaning-making system. You aren't going to get fooled into thinking that ERE, or SD, or any other thing is more than just a tool -- you aren't trying to fill some void in your being, and I imagine its frustrating to see other people twisting themselves into pretzels trying to stuff all kinds of bits and bobs of random crap into their voids, when you daily experience a rich life of meaning and it's really not all that complicated. (Particularly when the pretzel-people have been haughtily vilifying your system for, what 300 years?)

Not sure what my point is here. Maybe just to say, some users of these tools do in fact see them as just tools, are able to use them appropriately, and think the tool-worshippers are misguided as well, but that's not the fault of the tool or the tool creators. And, hey, maybe some people have to go through their own journey of worshipping dumb stuff before they figure out how to make sense of the world. You can lead a horse to water...

ETA: All that said, I *have* found the criticism of yourself and others enormously helpful in checking myself from falling into tool-worship myself, even though it can be frustrating at times. So don't take my post as asking you or anyone else to stop or tone it down necessarily, just musing about it all.

PS thanks for the Kingsnorth link.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Forgive me ERE, for I have sinned, it's been 2.5 months since my last confession.

(Sorry, bad joke about conflating ERE with religion.)

I'll save a more thorough update for some other time. What brings me here today is that my wife and I are running numbers on her leaving the workforce, as she works for a large healthcare system and, to put it in the form of an idiom, the wheels have done come off at her job, and something needs to change. (As some of you may remember, she stepped down from her role in management a while back for similar reasons, which helped a bit, though they've been unable to fill her management position (no surprise there, it was a shitty job), and so everyone continues to look to her to "manage," with the overall environment at the hospital and within upper management continuing to deteriorate.)

It's been an interesting accounting exercise to try and run the "what if" numbers, as this is something that is not in my wheelhouse and tends to make my eyes glaze over; but as my wife isn't exactly a natural-born bookkeeper either, someone has to do it.

The rub of all of this isn't that we'd lose DW's salary; it's the fact that she works for a very large healthcare system, which means that our family pays pennies for healthcare relative to like everyone else in the country. My tiny little 10-person law firm, on the other hand, has struggled to find an option it can provide its employees who can't rely on a spouse's employer's insurance. My understanding is we have one employee who is currently on COBRA or something because it is CHEAPER than our firm's plan would be for her.

Anyway, the numbers are that we currently pay $342/mo. in premiums through my wife's employer, for our current high-deductible plan; and we'd be paying $1,574.50/mo. in premiums if we do the insurance through my employer. That's a big difference. The good news is that once we move the premiums and the HSA contributions to my paycheck, my tax liability would go down about $700/month, once you add in 401(k) contributions. And so my monthly take-home would only be about $1,500 less than it is now, even though I'd be adding in about $2,200 more in HSA and insurance premiums to the pre-tax deductions columns.

Long story short (too late; ha!), DW leaving the workforce would result in just over $5,000/mo. less in take-home pay.

That's certainly doable, as we are currently putting $7K-$8K mo. of after-tax money in savings each month, not counting 529 contributions; BUT, $2K of that monthly savings is earmarked for our once or twice a year lump sum payments for the kids' school tuition, property taxes, and home/car insurance. So, doable, but without a lot of wiggle room; and . . . we are actually saving up that additional $5K/$6K each month with an eye towards buying up some sort of "hard" asset like rural land (I've mentioned here previously that DW and I both have a very strong urge to GTFO of the city; and the only thing that's keeping us here is our kids' school and the little community of parents/church friends that keep us sane). So that plan would have to go on the back burner for a bit; which is fine--the kids have several more years at their current school.

I'd like to say that DW not working would save us a bunch of money in daycare costs, cleaning expenses, transportation, cooking, etc. But honestly, that's not really true any more. It certainly would have been true 5 years ago or so, when our monthly spending was 3x and sometimes even 4x more than it is now. But, while not attempting to compare myself to @Jacob or some of the other folks on this forum, we've been pretty successful at getting a lot of our big expenses down, without sacrificing really anything that we think is important. We finally cut the cord on our cleaning person a couple years ago, I believe (turns out I'm a pretty efficient toilet boil scrubber). And we've downsized pretty drastically such that our housing costs are a fraction of what they once were. And although we ended up buying a second car (a 2015 Prius) once DW got her vaccine and was expected to actually work in person, her commute is only about 3-4 miles, and she often takes the free employer-provided shuttle when the weather is nice. As for me, I'm still walking to/from work, which is always a pain in the ass at the end of July when it feels like a tropical forest outside.

That said, although we're not paying for after-school care (i.e., daycare) anymore (thank GOD!), we continue to pay through the nose for summer "camps"; some of which we would continue to pay for even if DW didn't work (sleepaway camp and some sports development camps), but several we wouldn't, as they are "camps" in name only, and are really just glorified daycare so mom and dad can still pretend to work during the summer when school is out. So that would be a savings. Also, although DW cooks quite a bit even with a full-time job, and with the two of us having to shuttle the kids around from sport to sport often after work; I know if she weren't working at all we'd likely NEVER go out to eat, unless it was with friends who just aren't of the type that you'd invite over to your house for a get-together meal.

DW is holding out hope that she will be allowed to go part time, which would allow her to keep her employer-provided healthcare insurance, and which would give her many of the benefits she'd be looking for in quitting outright (more time with the kids, more time to cook the way she wants to cook, more time to pursue side hustles and the like, etc.). And the loss of income in going part time wouldn't be significant, really, if we'd still be paying only ~$400/mo. or so for healthcare. BUT, although she thinks that going part-time would help further distance herself from the madness that is her current work environment, while still continuing to do the work she likes doing (actually seeing patients), I worry that she'd still be stuck in what is a shit-show of a work environment--and it's only going to get worse.

Her boss has pushed back on her proposal to go part-time so far, BUT, DW hasn't dropped the ultimatum hammer yet (she's going to on Monday!), which is why we're running the numbers to make sure she really can say: it's either part-time or good luck trying to replace me in this current shit-show of a labor market.

Anyway, long screed; thanks as always for giving me a place to try and work things out.

ETA: These are my base salary numbers. I get performance and client development bonuses, which would be extra savings. But in running the numbers I like to use the baseline numbers.

white belt
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by white belt »

Good to hear from you. I have a few thoughts:

-Is homeschooling for some or all of your children out of the question? Or perhaps there is some hybrid alternative where your children can still participate in school extracurriculars while being homeschooled? That would allow them to still maintain their same friends and community aspects but likely improve the quality of their education dramatically.

-Healthcare in the USA does seem like a tricky topic for many on this forum. It says something that even your employer can’t figure out an affordable solution for employee healthcare.

-What are your wife’s non-financial motivations for working full-time? Does she enjoy just getting out of the house, the title/prestige, consistent schedule, sense of purpose, interactions with adult coworkers, etc? I think it’s a good idea to always consider the non-financial benefits of FT work when evaluating alternative arrangements so that you can proactively address any issues that may arise.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

white belt wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:48 pm
-Is homeschooling for some or all of your children out of the question?
Probably yes at this point. Had COVID shut down our kids' school for the 2020-21 school year, such that they didn't have any in-person learning, I can pretty much guarantee that we'd now be homeschool parents to the bitter end (along with a few like-minded friends/parents). But, the kids' parochial school stepped up to the plate and figured it out, and given my kids' ages (rising 3rd grader and 6th grader), we're not going to uproot them from the school, for a whole number of reasons, including that it's just a great little parochial school community; we're very lucky. If we had to do it over again we'd probably do some sort of Catholic/Classical school hybrid model starting with Kindergarten (there are several such "schools" in the greater metro area where I live); if not just do outright homeschooling. But at this point that ship has probably sailed, so long as my kids' school maintains its Catholic identity and doesn't hop (too much) on the bandwagon of "Church of what's happening now."

To be clear, we're one of only a handful of families that actually lives right near the school (literally across the street). That's because other families are smart enough to not pay the exorbitant property taxes in the city where the school is located, 60% of which go to pay for the city's public school system, which has good academic credentials, but which we wouldn't stick our kids in at this point even if our kids' Catholic school were to close down (for all the "ain't sending my kids to no damn 'government' school" reasons you'd probably expect me to say).

But for us, we like the walkability of our lives, where my work and the kids' school is all within the same square mile, as are retail stores, etc. It's an expensive luxury.
white belt wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:48 pm
-What are your wife’s non-financial motivations for working full-time? Does she enjoy just getting out of the house, the title/prestige, consistent schedule, sense of purpose, interactions with adult coworkers, etc? I think it’s a good idea to always consider the non-financial benefits of FT work when evaluating alternative arrangements so that you can proactively address any issues that may arise.
My wife no longer has any non-financial motivations for working full-time--she accomplished all the various goals she'd set for herself career-wise; but she certainly has non-financial motivations for working (she really likes seeing patients), she just wants to do a lot less of it. Ideally, she'd find a part-time gig within the same healthcare system doing something similar to but slightly different than she's doing now (and with different management and co-workers), like outpatient care, diabetes, etc. But for now, she's holding out for the part-time gig on her current team; but she'd also be perfectly happy just walking away, taking a sabatical of sorts.

ETA: You may be interested to know that I'm still doing the barbell training, and hadn't missed a single day of training since April until last week when I was at the beach (I did some kettlebell stuff instead). I've "reset" my NLP a few times, partly because I just become kind of a wussy when I've been doing "add 5 lbs" for several weeks and I get intimidated by just how much weight is on the barbell, even though I know I can probably lift it. The mental game of getting comfortable and confident lifting so much weight is an interesting angle. Anyway, I'm figuring it out, and my numbers still continue to go up. I'm not "stalling" at any particular number; but I'll reset back a little and then plow through it a few weeks later, and then reset at some higher number. I know that's not the plan, but that's how I've managed the mental piece of it.

My body has certainly changed; all my pants are tight in my thighs and I'll have to go get new dress shirts soon, as I keep popping buttons around the chest on my dress shirts that were clearly meant for a smaller man. But hey, it's been several years since I bought dress slacks or shirts for work; so I'm probably due.

Qazwer
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Qazwer »

One other possible negative with buying your own insurance could be coverage - you may have to peer under the hood to see exactly what your new plan would cover - some health care systems plans let you use their own people a lot
Given it sounds like you have big annual school expenses, you might want to look at your annual budget over the last few years (instead of monthly). If it is the local job and local people and if the health care system itself does not suck as an employer, she could also maybe look to work in another department. It matters if they give extra benefits for seniority. Otherwise it could also make sense to at least test the job market for a couple of weeks (see exactly what the other options are) unless it is truly take this job and shove it moment. An outside offer could give her leverage or find her something she might actually enjoys.
I guess it also matters if she is burned out or truly ready to never work again. The job sounds like it sucks so burn out could be a possibility. You never want to make a long term decision when feeling short term emotions.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by mooretrees »

I am glad you are back! I hope your DW gets to go part time, as that healthcare is a pretty sweet deal. Our is double yours and it seems like it doesn't cover anything.

Found this the other day and thought you might find it interesting:https://watersheddiscipleship.org/articles/. Christians who practice watershed discipline. Might be pretty far out there, but neat to learn about. These folks are featured in a new book I'm wanting to read: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FG ... =pd_gw_unk

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by basuragomi »

It's not very ecologically-minded compared to sourcing/tailoring used clothes, but I've found that Levis 541 "athletic fit" pants fit big thighs well without being super wide at the waist or ankle - you'd likely only need to take in the waist a little. Failing that, if you're the right height, women's jeans can fit big thighs and glutes pretty well.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Thanks all! Always love to hear from you fine folks. @MooreTrees: Please share your thoughts on the Believers book; it looks like something that might be worth checking out. @Basuragomi: Thanks for the recommendation on the jeans. I've had success over the years with the Levis 501 shrink-to-fits, as the STF process tends to give me room where I need it and not where I don't (I'd never be able to squeeze into a pair of pre-washed 501s; even at my skinniest--my body just isn't built that way).

Looks like DW will indeed be quitting her job, as her bosses are worried that letting her go part-time might set a bad precedent that will then be followed by pretty much all of her colleagues; and it's a massive understatement to say that her department is having some staffing shortages at the moment that don't look like they will be solved any time soon.

Lots and lots and lots of thoughts going on in my head, but overall, I'm just really looking forward to DW not going to work for BigHealth every day, being beat down by an insane healthcare system that just has its priorities all out of whack, unless you think the only priority that matters is GDP growth--digging holes to fill them back up again.

Our pursuit of FI/ERE over the past 5 years or so has prepared us well for this moment; and I'm excited. It's definitely doable, and I'm fully expecting a pretty massive increase in quality of life for the whole family. Also, DW is much more entrepreneurial-minded and creative than I am, not to mention driven, so I suspect it won't be long before she's working side-hustle after side-hustle of things that she's actually passionate about.

We obviously won't be able to set aside as much money each month for savings as we had been; but I don't really care. I'm much more looking forward to the fact that losing DW's income and taking on significantly higher healthcare premiums will force us further along our ERE journey towards self-sufficiency and financial independence. At this point, it's not about getting more money in the bank; more and more it seems like $5mil. doesn't seem to guarantee much more security than $1mil.--what matters for the purpose of financial security is how little we actually need the money for. I guess that's the difference between the Boglehead mindset (not to disparage those fine folks) and the ERE mindset. We already have more money saved than anyone really should need in a lifetime; the problem is that as long as the income pours in we're not likely to make any real efforts towards figuring out ways to spend less and enjoy what we have more.

I don't really want to think any more about 50% savings rate vs. 60%, or 75%, or 90%. I want to see just how little money we can get by with month in and month out; while still prioritizing those things that should be prioritized.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

That's very exciting! I'm also very glad you're posting again and am looking forward to reading updates on this new path. I just read most of Depletion and Abundance (courtesy of @mooretrees) which goes in some depth on the topic of clawing security/independence/abundance back by increasing one's engagement in the informal economy.

mooretrees
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by mooretrees »

I haven't read the book yet, it's just out and I am waiting just a bit. Or maybe not. I was sorta hoping to get a book review from you!

I dig a lot of what you're writing about if/when your DW quits. I went through similar thoughts as I was approaching part time work. The decrease in pay has slightly pushed us to be more creative, but not as much as I'd hoped. I keep finding extra money (renters primarily) and I haven't done a great job tracking money to see what we actually need these days. The extra time I have now is fantastic. I've been able to do some planned things (garden, help my farmer friend) and some unplanned things-write a grant for the library. It's hard to predict what will come with all of her extra free time, but it seems like it will be exciting and lovely for her and you all to have more of her.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

I've lamented here previously about the difficulty of finding a good cell phone option for my daughter; trying to avoid the "smart" phone for as long as possible but also giving her the means by which she can talk/chat with her friends, given that we of course don't have a landline. I've spent countless hours researching this topic over the past couple of years, trying to find a unicorn and not understanding why finding a cell phone with a full keyboard but with no social media or Internet connectivity is such a unicorn in the first place. The best option I'd come up with previously was Consumer Cellular, which sells a flip phone on a basic plan targeting senior citizens. DD has had it for a couple of years now and it serves its purpose, mostly (though she never fails to make a snarky and not wrong comment whenever we are watching Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy and we see multiple Consumer Cellular commercials, before and after the various old-age pharma and reverse mortgage commercials): we're able to get in tough with her when we need to, and vice versa; she's able to have some independence; and she's able to talk with her friends. The downside mostly is that it's got the old school flip phone keyboard that we all grew up with but that kids these days think is ridiculous for texting full conversations (and they are right). The other downside of course is that she's got many friends whose parents thought nothing of hooking their kids up to the matrix as soon as they were old enough to ask to be connected; and many kids these days aren't communicating via text most of the time (Facebook has the entry level "Messenger Kids" app; call it the gateway drug). Nevertheless, we've thus far stood our ground and acted like parents and not buddies, and DD has for the most part tolerated our reasons for wanting to try to hold back the tide for a bit longer.

Anyway, I put this here because over the weekend a friend recommended the Gabb Wireless phone: https://gabbwireless.com/ (I wonder what my going "influencer" rate would be?). It looks at first blush like it's the unicorn I'd been looking for, and so we've gone ahead and ordered it for DD; and we'll likely hand the flip phone down to DS (though we might give him another year; as he's not been as responsible as DD). The cost is roughly what the Consumer Cellular deal was--about $100 for the phone and $25 for the plan. I'll report back with my review of it; as I looked for so long in the past for a decent solution that didn't exist, that I'm now a little skeptical that this phone is what it says it is. Who knows, I'll likely find out that this is all some sort of Chinese surveillance initiative. But honestly, if it will keep my daughter off of TikTok and Instagram and Facebook for a couple more years; so be it.

As an aside, DW's immediate thought when we were looking at this phone was: "I want one!". And I share her interest. It's a phone that can make calls, send and receive group texts, has a camera, is an mp3 player, and has a calculator and an alarm clock and a calendar; but DOESN'T have any internet connectivity or any other apps, including social media. Honestly, it could be the "basic phone" that I've heard several others on this forum ask for here in the past. (So I'm sure it'll end up being a total bust.)

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