Hristo's FI Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
7Wannabe5
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Some of us believe in the environmental imperative, but not so much God, capitalism, or even consilience.

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jennypenny
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by jennypenny »

I'm in a bit of a fog after my second covid shot yesterday, so apologies if I'm even less clear than in the first response.

Hristo Botev wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:22 pm
But what do you mean by applying that to the ERE scale? If I'm a mid-level ERE'r, what are the ERE rules of which the upper-level ERE'rs are seemingly unconcerned, that is leaving me perplexed?

As a comment, I appreciate you trying to connect with me by making the analogy to Catholicism, but the truth is, it's that false equivalence as between ERE, on the one hand, and religion, or faith, or even "spirituality," on the other, that I see so much on this forum that is at the root of my concern (or annoyance or frustration or skepticism).
My comparison with Catholicism wasn't about the religious aspect but more about the structure and rules. Catholicism is a little unique among Christian faiths in that one can't be 'born again' and instantly welcomed as a member. There are lots of hoops to jump through which I equate with the ERE 'levels' we've been discussing on the forum. I think most people would agree that those lower tier steps can't be skipped in either discipline.

One can stop there .... complete the basic 'lower tier' stuff and be a member in good standing (Confirmation in Catholicism; FI basics in ERE). Those that go on to higher levels though come away with a deeper understanding of how outcomes become more important than the process/rules. What strikes me in both is that while the steps seem tedious they are very necessary, even though at higher levels one learns when to disregard the rules and when to adhere to them.

But back to where I started, I think where my head is at currently is I just think ERE is taking itself way too seriously.
I can't speak for others, only myself ... If you read threads like the Deep Adaptation thread, you understand the challenges some people feel are on the horizon. While you may not be all-in with climate change doomers, I feel that with incredible population growth and the challenges that come with it, including food production, disease, and maintaining the peace, there's no question that the potential is there for some significant events (we discussed that on the forum long before covid).

Personally, I'd like to be able to live through that well-enough to continue to be the person I want to be. I also feel responsible for our kids since we chose to bring them into the world -- I need to provide for them and instruct them beyond what's considered normal. We've also taken steps to bring a few family members into an ERE bubble of sorts to expand our base, and I feel a responsibility towards them as well. (covid actually made forming that bubble easier)

I get if you don't like the navel gazing on the forum ('how can I use that lint?' lol), but consider that some people look at ERE as the first step on a journey towards a much broader sense of stability. And if ERE is the first leg of one's stool, it makes sense to spend time learning how to make it as strong as possible before moving on to the other legs. As I said above, I think the silly arguments you pointed out can be seen as a way of practicing how to develop systems and 'master' things, and that kind of practice is useful, even if the actual activity isn't that important.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Hadn't checked in on CHS's blog for awhile and I laughed out loud when I read the lead on today's post:
The takeaway here is obvious: earn as little money as possible and invest your surplus labor in assets that can't be expropriated.
https://www.oftwominds.com/blogapr21/ex ... n4-21.html

Yep, that's pretty much become our strategy. "Diversification" has taken on a whole new meaning for us recently.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Fun with charts; still so far to go.

Image

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Just putting down some specific and quantifiable goals I'm actively working towards:
- 1,000 lb club (deadlift, squat, bench press)
- $1,000,000 total net worth (just cuz)
- Reach the expenses/ppi crossover point
- Build and continuously maintain a 2-month supply of food, water, and other essentials

Once I hit the 1,000 lb club (or if I finish my novice linear progression and realize I can't or don't want to hit 1,000 lbs), then I want to try Brazilian Jiu- Jitsu, perhaps with an aim to eventually become a black belt.

Once I hit $1,000,000 (which, who knows, may happen even faster now thanks to inflation), then I want to hit $2mil.

Once I hit a 2-month supply of food, water, and other essentials, then I want to aim for 6 months.

At a more abstract level, or at least non-specific, I'd like to own my own business one day. Maybe that's a solo practitioner law practice; or maybe that's something as silly as selling screen-printed t-shirts and bumper stickers or whatever on the side--I'd just like to go through the process with my own skin in the game; if nothing else it'd make me a better lawyer to have gone through the process. I'll add gaining some intermediate level of proficiency in Spanish.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by white belt »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:26 pm
Just putting down some specific and quantifiable goals I'm actively working towards:
- 1,000 lb club (deadlift, squat, bench press)
- $1,000,000 total net worth (just cuz)
- Reach the expenses/ppi crossover point
- Build and continuously maintain a 2-month supply of food, water, and other essentials

Once I hit the 1,000 lb club (or if I finish my novice linear progression and realize I can't or don't want to hit 1,000 lbs), then I want to try Brazilian Jiu- Jitsu, perhaps with an aim to eventually become a black belt.
How is the lifting coming along? I think goals are good but over the long term I believe the ideal strategy is to be as process oriented as possible (at least that’s what my coach tells me). I think there are a lot of parallels and lessons from lifting that transfer to other areas of life.

Like you, at one time my goal was to hit the 1000 lb club. One day I did, but it was a fleeting satisfaction. Perhaps the same as someone hitting a NW or SWR target in the personal finance world.

Am I strong? Sure compared to the layman or myself from a year or 2 ago, but the comparison to others still creeps in sometimes. I guess it can turn into a shifting of goalposts or keeping up with the Joneses like anything else. Now I compare myself more to the serious powerlifters and bodybuilders at my gym because that’s who I see everyday. I think there is something positive to be gained from eating humble pie every once in a while, like when I see someone benching my squat max. Keeps the ego in check.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

white belt wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:52 pm
They are just goals; I like to have goals to work towards to track my progress against--I learned a long time ago not to make the goal the thing, but to make the process the thing. Right now I'm just enjoying the fact that I get to put 5 more lbs on the bar every other day; and just blown away that is possible. Honestly, the guy next to me at the gym the other day was doing 3x5 work sets of squats at 455, and it kind of blew me away to see that (though I saw someone just hit a world record on squat of something like 1,100 pounds?!?!). That's certainly not something I'm aiming for; at this point my true (non arbitrary) "goal" is to try and get to wherever the sweet spot is of strength and muscle growth/maintenance and bone density and diet and bodyweight that will give me the best chance at being strong enough to get off the toilet unassisted when I'm 90. The 1,000 lb aggregate goal is just an arbitrary thing to track my progress against; I certainly don't plan on putting it on a t-shirt if/when I get there. Rippetoe can say whatever he wants about strength being everything, and that you need a gut to lift more; but that seems counter productive to me--I want to find the happy medium.

Regarding NW and SWR type goals, DW and I always pop a bottle of (cheap) sparkling wine whenever we hit a NW milestone, really just because we like to have things to celebrate. But it's not about the number, it's about the fact that with every month we become more and more financially independent and resilient, and that process presumably can continue for a really, really long time, in the same way the strength training process can make you progressively stronger for a long time, subject to the concept of diminishing returns, of course.

And as for humble pie, I got excited this morning at the gym cuz the guy next to me was squatting less than I was, and that was the first time I'd really seen that (including for both men and women--though, in my defense, the women at my gym are all beast mode). Then I realized the guy was just doing his warm-up sets, as his work sets were about double what mine are.

Ultimately, I'm only planning on being in the gym for another month or two, as the reason I cleared out the garage last weekend was to get it ready for a squat rack and bench; but before investing the money in the equipment I wanted to make sure strength training was something I was likely to continue doing (it is), and also I wanted to make sure I knew exactly what I needed.

Regarding the lifting, it's going great; I wore squat shoes for the first time today at the gym, and I now get it that it really is a necessity. It felt totally different squatting in those than it did in my old running shoes. I still don't think I'm lifting enough to need a belt; but I probably should go ahead and get one anyway, though at our gym you're allowed to just borrow one from the wall.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

A little late for a monthly round-up, but better late than never (or perhaps not).

On the net worth side, I keep waiting for the stock market to come crashing down (perhaps today? looks like the S&P is off to a really bad start); and I know I'm like the billionth person to say this, but this shit just seems like a whole lot of funny money, and while I'd like to get excited about a $42K increase in net worth over a single month, it's kind of hard to when all I'm doing is waiting for the hammer to drop. We're continuing to limit our exposure to the stock market, and to focus more on building up cash reserves and "investing" (ha!) in hard assets while we can still afford to that will allow us to live more cheaply and self sufficiently later on. BUT, it's getting harder and harder to put in 8-10 hours/day at work, no matter how much they're paying me, when more and more it seems like the facade of a functioning economy is about to be laid bare and come crashing down. The "deal" of, you give us your time, we'll give you financial security and some level of comfort, just seems more and more precarious.

On the spending side, I'm loving the fact that things are now set up in a way that we almost can't help but have at least a 50% savings rate. As recently as last year it was an accomplishment for us to hit that number; now, we hit 50% without even trying. Last month was very spendy (as in we weren't really paying attention), and we still clocked in at 56%, so our rolling average for the year continues to be above 60%. Mind you our earnings have decreased (voluntarily) over the past few years, as we've traded earnings for more time. Yet the spending has decreased even more.

On the strength training side, at this point this is the longest I've ever stuck with any sort of fitness/exercise program, and I'm loving it. My numbers across the lifts--squat, press, bench press, and deadlifts--continue to increase linearly, and I get the sense that I've still got at least another few weeks before I need to start mixing things up--likely by incorporating the power clean and backing off the deadlift a bit. There is something that is just incredibly satisfying about loading a bunch of plates on a barbell on the floor, beginning the deadlift and feeling what at first seems like insurmountable resistance, and then your mind goes completely blank and the next thing you know you're standing upright with more weight in your hands than you've ever lifted off the ground before.

On the everything else side, I truly am blessed. I've got two fantastic kids who are really coming into their own, figuring out who they are and how they can be fully alive in this world. They are both so generous, and kind, and just interesting as hell. DD, who has turned out to be a star soccer player, lost her voice last night cheering on DS's little league baseball team as they competed in the 8-year-old season-ending tournament championship; and she spent the entire car ride home analyzing DS's game and development and genuinely praising him for how quickly he's picked the game up after 4 years playing soccer almost exclusively. And DS does the same thing with DD's soccer development; they are one another's biggest fans. It warms my heart.

I left work early yesterday so I could get DS some grounders and pop-ups practice before his championship game, and as he was walking home from school with DW he saw me walking home from work from the other direction and he let out a huge shout of "DAAAADDDDDYYYYY!!!!!" and sprinted towards me and jumped into my arms. He then asked, "why are you crying Dad"? And I answered, "my cup runneth over."

And as for DW, we just celebrated our 15th wedding anniversary, and with every day that passes it becomes that much more difficult to decipher where the individual ends and the union begins; I truly see God through DW, and in our marriage, and in the love between us and the love between us and our children, and between us and the external world. To quote the Blessed Fulton Sheen, it takes three.

Knocking on wood; and thanking God for his many gifts and graces.

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Ego
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Ego »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:38 am
I left work early yesterday so I could get DS some grounders and pop-ups practice before his championship game, and as he was walking home from school with DW he saw me walking home from work from the other direction and he let out a huge shout of "DAAAADDDDDYYYYY!!!!!" and sprinted towards me and jumped into my arms. He then asked, "why are you crying Dad"? And I answered, "my cup runneth over."
What a beautiful moment! Thank you for sharing it.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

jennypenny wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:21 am
My comparison with Catholicism wasn't about the religious aspect but more about the structure and rules. Catholicism is a little unique among Christian faiths in that one can't be 'born again' and instantly welcomed as a member. There are lots of hoops to jump through which I equate with the ERE 'levels' we've been discussing on the forum. I think most people would agree that those lower tier steps can't be skipped in either discipline.

One can stop there .... complete the basic 'lower tier' stuff and be a member in good standing (Confirmation in Catholicism; FI basics in ERE). Those that go on to higher levels though come away with a deeper understanding of how outcomes become more important than the process/rules. What strikes me in both is that while the steps seem tedious they are very necessary, even though at higher levels one learns when to disregard the rules and when to adhere to them.
Realizing I never responded to this ↑, which was an oversight, as I especially (and always) appreciate your thoughtful commentary and sage advice on this forum. I think I grok'd your application of the Catholic understanding of religious progression to the ERE scale here (viewtopic.php?p=241900#p241900), with @Jacob's assistance and elucidation.

As for this:
jennypenny wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:21 am
I can't speak for others, only myself ... If you read threads like the Deep Adaptation thread, you understand the challenges some people feel are on the horizon. While you may not be all-in with climate change doomers, I feel that with incredible population growth and the challenges that come with it, including food production, disease, and maintaining the peace, there's no question that the potential is there for some significant events (we discussed that on the forum long before covid).

Personally, I'd like to be able to live through that well-enough to continue to be the person I want to be. I also feel responsible for our kids since we chose to bring them into the world -- I need to provide for them and instruct them beyond what's considered normal. We've also taken steps to bring a few family members into an ERE bubble of sorts to expand our base, and I feel a responsibility towards them as well. (covid actually made forming that bubble easier)

I get if you don't like the navel gazing on the forum ('how can I use that lint?' lol), but consider that some people look at ERE as the first step on a journey towards a much broader sense of stability. And if ERE is the first leg of one's stool, it makes sense to spend time learning how to make it as strong as possible before moving on to the other legs. As I said above, I think the silly arguments you pointed out can be seen as a way of practicing how to develop systems and 'master' things, and that kind of practice is useful, even if the actual activity isn't that important.
I think I've been pretty forthcoming on this forum over the past year or so with my own come-to-Jesus journey on climate change and societal collapse (probably too forthcoming; but hey, I probably wasn't going to get appointed to a federal judgeship anyway!); and I think that damn near everything I've put on here since that realization has been somewhere in the spirit of: "we're f'd; my kids are even more f'd; so how can I prepare them for a world in which they will be f'd?". That's why I'm here!

I'm not here to FIRE; I have no interest in retiring, early or otherwise, ever. I'm here on this planet to labor and to serve and to protect; that's my purpose in life--that's how I serve God and Creation. I've come to see the very concept of "early retirement," as it's been promulgated by the likes of MMM et al., and even YMOL, as damn near revolting--i.e., (a) exploit your "privilege" (look at me using woke words) to get the right pedigree to get the right high salary job; (b) then exploit the corporate/institutional assumptions that think you actually want to stick around for awhile, to take on progressively more responsibility (in exchange for progressively more money and esteem) so that you can then help perpetuate the institution and help bring up the next generation; (c) then say f you to the corporation/institution (and your colleagues/bosses/direct reports), because you are now "free" (what were you before?) to live off of the dividends and capital gains of your S&P 500 index fund or whatever that is dependent upon, guess what, people actually showing up every day for work; and then (d) what?, go travel?, or practice wood working?, or read every book in the library?, or play video games?, or build a really cool model train set? Ho-f'ing-hum.

I get it that folks don't like the corporate thing (by which I mean the multi-national mega-corp thing; not the mom-and-pop who set up a corporation or LLC so that a slip and fall doesn't wipe out their personal safety net); I don't either. So don't buy into it--at all. Like, when you're 25 or whatever and you realize the meritocracy is bullshit--that you screwed up by killing yourself for all those years chasing the best schools and the best internships and the best jobs; and that no matter what the slick PR folks tell you in the HR department, X Corporation is in fact NOT one big family--quite the opposite, it's in X Corp.'s short-term interests to tear down your real family, and X Corp. is therefore the reason you live 1,000 miles from your parents/siblings/cousins, and why you and your spouse are headed for a divorce, and why you don't know what your kids eat for breakfast, or lunch, or even dinner. The answer is not to say: "aha, I'm going to rake it in for 5 years and then, you just watch, I'll show them!; I'll take all of their money and re-invest it (back into the stocks of X Corp. and corps like X Corp.) and then live off of the proceeds while driving around in my van [or whatever]!" If you're going to reject it, then reject it; don't go halfway, exploiting "the system," which system of course consists of people just like you, like your parents, like your neighbors. Be authentic. Start a business you believe in, or go work for one, and then invest whatever surplus money is left over back into the business, or into other businesses you believe in, and/or in your family and in your local community; use tools like ERE so that you don't have to run to the bank for seed money, and so that you're able to live comfortably even if the business isn't making much money--because you simply just don't want for much.

But I digress, when I say ERE is taking itself too seriously, I'm certainly not talking about the navel gazing and pondering whether it's possible to spin belly button lent into yarn, or to use the lent as fuel for a rocket mass heater, or whatever, in the "something from nothing" spirit; hell, that's the kind of stuff that I love about this forum and that keeps me coming back, because it's a constant reminder to not fall into group think.

When I say that ERE is taking itself too seriously, I mean treating ERE as the end, as opposed to a means.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

When I read your original rant, I thought you had flipped a bit and gone incoherent. I almost replied to it - glad I didn't. Your post stuck with me for days and days, and I realized that at least some, if not all, of the lack of coherence I was perceiving was on my end. Since then, the question of what the point actually is has been much more top of mind and subject to active contemplation. Thanks for your thoughts, as always. I want to turn your last post into a sort of slam poetry oral performance video, channeling Al Pacino's courtroom monologue in Scent of a Woman.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:27 pm
When I read your original rant,
Ha! Which rant is the original? This journal is essentially nothing but rants (along with less and less detailed financial updates).

Looking forward to the slam poetry video; I hereby relinquish my copyright in my May 11, 4:45pm post, so have at it.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:13 pm
This one is what I had in mind. :)

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:49 pm
This one is what I had in mind. :)
Oh I've had much rantier rants than that one, starting way back on page 2 of the 44 page journal: viewtopic.php?p=171809#p171809 and viewtopic.php?p=171912#p171912

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by jacob »

@HB - You might find it enlightening(ha!) to see this as a conflict of values as well as personality types. I recently started reading into spiral dynamics (see overview https://www.thenextevolution.com/spiral-dynamics/ ) which provides yet another lens of seeing humanity (@Alphaville would approve ;-P ). [Note that people can contain multiple colors but that one usually has a center of gravity with one color dominating.]

In particular, I think this particular tension comes from blue (tradition/conservative) vs orange-red (young tech professionals) and my own desire to superpose and expand the system. I find the intermutual prejudices (see expanded menu system on https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/blue/ ) particularly insightful. In particular, I think the overall ^vMeme of the forum is currently dominated by red/orange while I seek to make it more yellow (as seen in the recent "upgrade" to the Wheaton table) (work in progress).

PS: This could also yet another be a can of worms. If this doesn't increase mutual understanding, it's probably best to ignore it rather than debate its usefulness. It's not a tool I have much experience with (yet).

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Alphaville »

jacob wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:02 am
which provides yet another lens of seeing humanity (@Alphaville would approve ;-P ).
haha! my name was invoked; and like beetlejuice, i am summoned (no need for 3 times).

models are fine. and good models can be useful. the problem is not models in themselves.

the problem is when nerdy people, like plato of athens, use their intellectual athleticism to reduce reality to the forms of the model.

or when, like (some) medieval philosophers, they make use of their superpowers to force any errant observations to fit into a bad model (because if one is clever enough, things can be twisted to fit into any shape).

i now give myself license to depart... 🦇

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:02 am
God help us, another Wheaton Level Table. Just what I need, academics showing me what "level" I'm on and what it might look like if I were "enlightened" and a member of the "Second Tier."

Image

I think this is what Ross Douthat was talking about in his Decadent Society; this is what happens when folks have too much comfort and too much time on their hands, they sit around and come up with "a structured evolutionary model of adaptive intelligence."

Speaking of God, I guess I should take comfort in the fact that these folks put the "God" thing all the way up at level 4, as opposed to levels 1 or 2, which it seems is where these enlightened post-religion Morpheus types tend to stick us God-fearing neanderthals.

But this made me laugh, from the relevant Wikipedia entry:
They also warn that attempts to build Turquoise communities are, in their view, likely to lead to the development of "abusive cults" as a result of trying to make the Turquoise level real when (in their view) it is not.
As Orwell wrote, "If there was hope, it must lie in the proles, . . . ." Or, to get Huxleyian, stick me on the reservation, as I shudder to think what society is going to look like if there is significant buy in among the controlling classes for something like Spiral Dynamics.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by ZAFCorrection »

@HB

If we ever get to the point of having purity purges over which turquoise faction is the most cosmically-minded, I will say humor has reached its apotheosis and will happily accept whatever other negative consequences there are.

Systems like these make me wonder if there should be an antithetical system denoting the intellectual maintenance costs or entropy of increasingly complex frameworks. Putting together your model of everything that somehow includes the H2 molecules hanging around the left side of alpha centauri probably means you are more likely to trip on the curb.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:48 pm
Putting together your model of everything that somehow includes the H2 molecules hanging around the left side of alpha centauri probably means you are more likely to trip on the curb.
When I hear someone say someone else needs to "get out of their head," it's this kind of systemizing* that comes to my mind. Just go do something; and stop trying to make the world more complex than it actually is.

*I didn't even realize that was a word until I googled it just now. "Systemizing is the drive to analyse systems or construct systems." Yeah, I don't really understand that drive.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by white belt »

Well this is the ERE forum and systems thinking is a core component of the strategy. I'm not surprised that most on here are analyzing or constructing systems; I mean aren't these journals just people analyzing and tweaking their own life systems?

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