Firearm Recommendations

[Riggerjack]

It's easier to carry. That's it. Lighter, smaller, easier to conceal. Plus, after you empty it without hitting your target, it's a good size for throwing.

[George the original one]

> It is more than just a tool, it is a symbol of indivdual freedom.

Owning something as a symbol is the worst reason to own it. Nothing is so empty for ERE as "status symbol".

[Mikeallison]

> It is more than just a tool, it is a symbol of indivdual freedom.

Owning something as a symbol is the worst reason to own it. Nothing is so empty for ERE as "status symbol".

Ah but this functions as more than just a symbol doesn't it? This isn't a pair of shoes. It is zeus's thunder bolt incarnate. Both the symbol of empowerment, and the means to it.

The ugly truth is the foundation of our republic isn't the constitution, it is men with guns. All laws have the threat of violence behind them, if you break a law, the government uses violence against you to see that that law is enforced.

An armed public acts as a check and balance to this. As long as the laws are seen as just by the public, then no single armed man can challenge the state. If the public sees the laws as unjust however, well then they can band together and fix the issue.

People who view government with a cynical eye see the sense in this. People who view the state as a benevolent entity, that is incapable of trespassing on the rights of its citizens, don't get it. They think it is co-operation, not the equal threat of violence on both sides, that holds it all together. I'm on the cynical side, so were the people who created our "benevolent" state.

I'm ranting way off topic for like the third post now, lol. I'll take it on over to the political forum after this one.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@jennypenny

“Tacticool.” Thank you so much for this!

[Mikeallison]

after you empty it without hitting your target, it's a good size for throwing.

Haha!

How often do you shoot the one you own? I'll admit they are a challenge, but all pistols are a challenge. I'm not as good as this guy with one, but I'm close. And I've never had to resort to chucking the gun to hit my target, even when It was new to me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gk-524ef2ck

For a beginner I can see why you would recommend a longer gun, but if they just want it for home defense, no pistol compares to a long gun anyway. If it is for carry, the the answer should be any pistol, just train with it! Without the basics and practice, the extra barrel length isn't going to do you much good.

[Riggerjack]

I bought a .32 mag snub nose at the Great Seattle Gun Bazaar, I think I wrote about it here. I bought it from a man who inherited it from his father, but had no use or desire for one, and didn't want any trouble selling it.

I generally shoot down in my gully, at about 15-20 yards. I shoot at playing cards. If I'm slow shooting with friends, we only count pips. And I generally don't score well in that system. 1 point per diamond shot, 3 points to remove a corner with the number, 5 points to cut the card in two. Yes, I'm cheap and don't like to change targets.

When I am shooting alone, that's when things get creative. I have to be careful, because I only have 10 acres and neighbors, but I also have hills and gullies. I put on my knee and elbow pads. I shoot off hand, or while running or at moving targets, or charging a target while maintaining suppressing fire, or while diving for cover, you get the idea.

Cops shoot at ranges. Because cops have an entire full time backup team. I shoot in all the messed up awkward positions I can think of. Because I don't. If I have to use a gun, it probably won't be while standing in a well lit space at a cooperative, still target. So I don't train for that.

As for accuracy, the snub nose will hit a sheet of paper at 10 yards but a card is luck and pips are random. My Glock at 20 yards, I can hit a card on a draw, double tap, but I'm not sure about that second shot, it misses as often as it hits. Using my wife's Kimber, I can count pips, but still not compete with my friend, he is a great, natural shot.

I don't understand why someone would choose a low capacity, inaccurate gun, unless they were nearly certain that they would never use it. Cops can do this, because they can draw and expect not to be shot for it. I'm not a cop. I have no intent in ever threatening anyone with a gun, so if it's in my hand, it best be up for whatever task is necessary.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I want to thank all the forum members again, not only for their advice, but also their patience.

I opened the thread with “in light of today’s highly polarized atmosphere” and then later in the thread made regrettable comments that were political in nature. I find the forum unique in the breadth of understanding its members have of others who are different. By making such comments, I’ve taken away from the forum, instead of adding to it. I sincerely apologize for that, and I hope to correct this moving forward.

I’ve been dealing with considerable friction in all relationships lately: family, friends, and at work. How much of this is attributable to my own shortcomings, I do not know. I have been reducing my social engagement across the board, as bringing up unusual ideas (such as ERE, amongst others) evokes irrational and violent responses from people. Socializing can be fun, but not when I am being continuously ridiculed or disrespected. Even my so-called closest friends have turned mocking me into a daily pastime.

I feel thankful to get help from such wise people. I feel here I am in the midst of accomplished and honorable ladies and gentlemen. I hope by observing you all, I can elevate my own manners, rather than allowing myself to be dragged down so low as to be hateful.

[Mikeallison]

I don't understand why someone would choose a low capacity, inaccurate gun, unless they were nearly certain that they would never use it.

I get where you are coming from, but I can at least tell you why I carry the snub most the time. I used to carry my full sized kimber 1911 when I first got my permit. Lower capacity than a 9, but a very accurate, relatively powerful handgun.

After awhile I realised something. It sucked to haul around. Not just the weight, but the bulk. It was hard to conceal without it "printing", it was hard to draw quickly because of the way I had to carry it. It would bother me sitting down too. Because of this I found myself just leaving it at home more often than not, until pretty soon I just stopped carrying it.

My girlfriend had the snub before we met, like you I just assumed they were a last resort kind of deal. We took it out and I found that after a bit if practice, I could hit stationary clay pigeons from 8-10 yards without much trouble in single action. Did more experimenting and figured out I could hit a man sized silhouette target from the same range in double relatively quickly off the draw.

So here is a gun that is a breeze to carry, it feels no more obtrusive than a clip on belt knife. It is reliable, easy to use and has decent proven stopping power. But more importantly, I actually take the damn thing! Is a full sized pistol Better? Well of course, a long gun is an even better choice. Would you want to carry a rifle around everywhere though?

If you stop and think about how everyday crime happens, it is face to face anyway. Probably pretty rare that you get mugged or held up from 20 yards away eh? For me the snub is a great compromise between functionality and convenience. I'll bust out the kimber if the zombies ever come.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@Mikeallison
What snub do you and your girl own? I agree that it shouldn’t be your primary pistol, maybe not even a primary conceal carry. I read what you wrote about the concealed hammer, I’m interested in the the Smith and Wesson Bodyguard 38 special. J-frame looks beautiful and seems like a great weapon of last resort. Not something I would have in place of a better gun, but a gun to have when having anything bigger is not an option. Also, I watch too many movies and probably have romanticized the revolver.

I went shooting my friend’s pistols and realized I can’t hit much. I’m sure I can get better with practice. He had a Ruger .22, Glock 9mm, S+W .380 and .45. The .22 felt like a suped up BB gun, he admits it’s just for the range. I don’t think I would spend money on such a gun. I want the plausibility of real-life usage. I seemed to be most accurate with the .45, but maybe that was just luck. I have big hands. His Ruger .22 jammed. A word of caution for cheaper guns and cheap ammo.

The shotgun seems preferable for home defense. I hear everyone about the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500. Does anyone here have the Bellini M4? Hopefully I can try some shotguns soon. I like the idea that if I am faced with a checkerboard of guys good and bad, I can avoid shooting the good guys using the Bellini. The AR-15 videos scare me with their indiscriminate fire. I don’t know if there’s ever a scenario when I have to blast at people from over 100 yards. If I’m ever faced with a scenario where the AR-15 is more useful than the Bellini M4, I’m probably better off just running away at that point. I’m looking for defense, not assault.

The Sig Sauer Academy is in my home state. I’m looking to try the 1911 and the P229, to start. Not only would I get training for former law enforcement and special ops, I would get a discount on what are expensive guns. I agree with Augustus, quality matters. I don’t think I would want to spend money on a less expensive gun, to eventually supplant with a higher quality gun, when I “graduate.” As Jacob says “beware of the man with one weapon, he knows how to use it.” I agree, but if someone grabs ahold of my shotgun or if I run out of ammo, it would be nice to have weapons which are complimentary. If I splurge for a Sig, and maybe even a Bellini, an inexpensive Mossberg and also inexpensive 38 special snubnose could round out an arsenal and provide redundancies.

Taleb: “Always diversify more than you think you need.”

Live free or die.

[jacob]

Since you guys are currently talking phone-booth (or room-sized) handguns, what's the opinion on non-lethal weapons of the same range? I'm thinking OC spray and tasers.

To me this comes down to making type-1 (false positive, e.g. a family member, an unarmed idiot, ...=> manslaughter charges => prison?) vs type-2 (false negative, e.g. being outgunned by a criminal/zombie and dying) errors. Given the probabilities for each kind of error as well as my age, wealth, and general life-attitude (religion?) multiplied with the aftermath = two different expectation values, one larger than the other, I prefer to avoid type-1 errors.

Somewhere I saw some startup working on a non-lethal OC gun (think paintball style delivery) where the idea was to spray the area and retreat. Key was you just have to blanket the area with OC smog (you don't have to hit them... which is hard anyway, see above ... just hit somewhere around them) which an attacker would then have to run through.

Lacking that, there's standard OC spray which comes in two variants: Directed (narrow beam) and fogging (wide beam). This would also work on crazy dogs.

How do tasers compare? They're a one-shot operation which isn't very attractive. Also do tasers shoot through a winter coat?

[jacob]

@MI - If you're pursuing FIRE, surely you can afford TWO good guns of the same kind. Once you're FIRE'd, the cost of one gun is just daily market noise. Diversifying doesn't mean they have to be different. This is not about anti-correlation or asset allocation You're not trading. You're shooting.

[Mikeallison]

To me this comes down to making type-1 (false positive, e.g. a family member, an unarmed idiot, ...=> manslaughter charges => prison?) vs type-2 (false negative, e.g. being outgunned by a criminal/zombie and dying) errors. Given the probabilities for each kind of error as well as my age, wealth, and general life-attitude (religion?) multiplied with the aftermath resulting in different expectation values, I prefer to avoid type-1 errors.

I don't have any personal experience with tasers, my friend was in the police academy and they tased him with their standard issue. He said it hurt like hell and would probably take the fight out of anybody, not sure if they can penetrate a thick coat. YouTube probably knows.

My cabin is in grizzly bear habitat, and I carry both a 44 mag revolver and bear spray. All the reading I've done says the spray is more effective than the gun, so I will use that over the pistol if I'm unfortunate enough to end up in that situation. I tried out the canister to get a feel for it, and the little bit that blew back at me was enough to send me coughing for minutes. Very potent stuff.

If the spray works for a pissed off bear, then it seems logical that it would work against a person, barring somebody high out of their mind. I would buy the kind for people though, for liability reasons.

If your only interest in firearms is self defense, and you live in a state that has laws which favor the criminal in a break in, I think a taser or spray, or both, would serve you just as well, or better than a pistol. Hand guns, like martial arts, require constant practice and training to get proficient with. It's a hobby for me, and I shoot alot, and live in a state that has gun friendly laws, so I'm comfortable with the risk in carrying

[Mister Imperceptible]

@JLF

Yessir! I actually like the idea of having one semi-auto and one pump action. I am not sure if I will be better with one or the other. But it would be nice to be able to arm my father/female companion/eldest son.

[Mikeallison]

@Mikeallison
What snub do you and your girl own? I agree that it shouldn’t be your primary pistol, maybe not even a primary conceal carry. I read what you wrote about the concealed hammer, I’m interested in the the Smith and Wesson Bodyguard 38 special. Also, I watch too many movies and probably have romanticized the revolver.

Currently it is a charter arms "undercover", our old one was a taurus which had some reliability issues so we sold it. All the guns you mentioned are good choices, the m4 is a bit overkill in my opinion for defense, but if you are buying it for enjoyment too then you will have fun with it.

As long as you are doing 380 and up, caliber really doesn't matter as much as how it fits you. My advice if you plan on carrying is shoot the thing to see how you like it, then check the ammo cost (you will train more if it is cheaper to do so). If possible I would try wearing it around the house for a day as well, sit down, stand up, bend over. If the gun isn't comfortable for you to carry odds are it will spend most of the time in the safe.

I hear you on revolvers, my most used gun is a 6.5 inch single action blackhawk chambered in 357. It is an absolute joy to plink with using 38 special ammo, and I cast my own bullets and reload so it costs me pennies per round.

[jennypenny]

Since you guys are currently talking phone-booth (or room-sized) handguns, what's the opinion on non-lethal weapons of the same range? I'm thinking OC spray and tasers.

Beanbag rounds and rubber bullets would probably fall under that category.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@Mikeallison

If the Bellini is overkill then I won’t worry about being under armed, and I won’t worry that I missing something by passing on the AR-15.

And if I picked the Sig P229, I would pick the S+W .40 option over the 9mm.

[Mikeallison]

Beanbag rounds and rubber bullets would probably fall under that category.

At the ranges found inside a typical home there is a very good chance a beanbag out of a 12 gauge will prove lethal to whoever you hit. Just something to be aware of.

[Mikeallison]

And if I picked the Sig P229, I would pick the S+W .40 option over the 9mm.

Good choice on the .40, if you ever shoot an AR you will feel like you are missing out trust me! They are alot more fun to shoot than a 12 gauge. The standard AR fires the .223 which has very mild recoil, and is a flat shooter. They also have intuitive iron sights and great ergonomics. It just looks scary, but it is actually one of the easiest rifles to use. Better options for home defense for sure, but not many for fun.

[Mister Imperceptible]

Additional details on the pistols I tried: S&W bodyguard (.380), S&W shield (.45), ruger Mark IV (.22), and glock g17 (9mm). I haven’t shot enough to describe a qualitative difference between the guns, other than to say I could feel the larger caliber bullets. I’m not in love with the polymer look or feel. The Ruger was actually the most attractive looking gun.

I still need to shoot a lot more. All the ideas I have stated are preliminary, but I am thinking about what I need, looking at them as tools, and so each should have a specific purpose.

The concern being expressed by many is that of having too much power/penetration and potential for collateral damage. This is counterweighted by the other concern that lack of stopping power defeats the purpose of being armed. I don’t take arming myself lightly, nor would I take brandishing a weapon lightly. If I were in a critical situation, I would hope that with proper training and considerations ahead of time for the home environment that I could use the appropriate amount of force. I am leaning towards having more stopping power. While this means I would have to be even more careful about where I discharge my firearm, it also means I would potentially be able to discharge it less overall.

[Kriegsspiel]

Ok... so you've successfully tazed some psycho or hit them with a non-lethal. Then what? Wait for who-knows-how-long for the cops to get there? Fuck that.