Firearm Recommendations

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jennypenny
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by jennypenny » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:15 pm

I'm trying to avoid getting into the gun debate here (again), but I will say that the day I decided I would never forfeit any weapons was the day I found out that the Stepford PD had purchased a fully loaded M-ATV.

Mikeallison
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Mikeallison » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:26 pm

jennypenny wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:15 pm
I found out that the Stepford PD had purchased a fully loaded M-ATV.
Yep, as I understand it the feds are selling these things to local governments for sometimes as little as $2000, and this is the same hardware they were using in the middle east!

I expect to see meter maids driving around Bradley fighting vehicles at this rate. I mean why not if the Mayberry purchasing department can buy them from the feds cheaper than the golf carts?

jacob
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by jacob » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:31 pm

It seems inevitable that government enforcers (aka police) will always move to a +1 force level beyond those they are regulating. It's not long ago that British Bobbies (is that the term?) only carried night sticks, this being +1 beyond the [drunken] fists of the people. Now, wherever civilians carry knives and what not, the police carries guns. If civilians carries guns, the police has SWAT teams with submachine guns. And if civilians carry semi-automatic rifles, like in Iraq, like in US, the +1 for the police is to drive around in MRAPs.

And so on and so forth... if all Americans could legally buy bazookas or machine guns, police would start driving around in Strykers.

If I apply my physicist-inspired civics-models, then the A2 says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The underlined part deals exactly with the issue of seeking force parity. However, I don't think I'm exaggerating, if I suppose that for every 100 Americans who will talk about the "keep and bear arms" part, only 1 knows the first half of the sentence.

"Well-regulated" refers to what was understood already in Roman times (I read it in Gibbons (volume one) which was a best-seller right around the time the constitution was written)---but doesn't seem to be acknowledged by those who insist their personal weapons will 'protect' them from the government---was that while one soldier could defeat one peasant and whereas 1000 peasants could overwhelm an outpost with 100 soldiers, an organized army of 10,000 could control millions of civilians because civilians would never organize in sufficient numbers beyond a certain level. Of course the civilians could make life annoying for the occupiers, but they could never win. This is why the US et al military presence in Iraq et al can be far smaller than the population they control.

To wit, the non-regulated American population with small-arms could, in practice, controlled by something the size of the Swedish military :?

A2 used to come with responsibilities or more accurately the potential to be responsible. However, this [responsibility] has been ignored. The way most people use the A2 seems to be a red herring covering for what is mostly tradition and practical concerns, i.e. "we like guns, we've always had guns" so "pry it from my cold dead hands"(*). I'm fine with the right to bear arms ... but it also comes with the understanding that since those guns are kept around for cultural reasons for private fun rather than as a well-regulated militia (e.g. everybody joining something like the National Guard if not the National Guard), then the outcome is that police will simply respond and arm themselves to stay ahead of the curve.

As a consequence, this is why US police look so militarized compared to countries with less weapons in civilian hands; and this is why Americans enjoy no greater advantage over its government than any other government. The force-balance is just held at a deadlier level.

(*) To which the government will say .. okay, fine, we'll do it that way then [by driving an armored truck through the wall].

Mikeallison
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Mikeallison » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:55 pm

@Jacob

Have you had a chance to read the US COIN manual? It is interesting in that Petraeus starts the whole thing off with an apology for why the US, despite having the world's most powerful military, has had such a hard time handling a bunch of dirty bearded guys wielding 1980s era Soviet equipment.

The US lost Vietnam. They are shaping up to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan with little or nothing to show for it. Why? Because our war machine is not built to fight insurgencies. We are not good at asymmetrical warfare. What you cite as a weakness, the inability to organise in large numbers, is actually a strength. It is much harder to fight an enemy that is a ghost and has as many heads as the hydra. Now imagine those wars here at home, where every bomb you drop, every missle you fire, weakens you as well. Imagine the fragility of our power infrastructure, imagine the mega cities that depend on just in time food delivery, vulnerable water and sewage treatment plants, dams.

Imagine how many troops and resources it would take to control just a city the size of LA or New York if things got out of hand, and I'm not talking about riots after a sports event, im talking about hungry, thirsty, desperate people. Imagine the split loyalty of our military...

It would take everything the military has to win that war, and while they were doing it their global rivals would be exploiting every weakness abroad, and likely helping whoever was making trouble. It would likely be the end of US hegemony.

The error here is thinking that any sort of resistance would have to meet the US military on the equal terms, when in reality, modern society is so fragile, it would only require enough people causing trouble in the right places to bring the whole thing down.

So I have to disagree, I believe the weapons are more than just a cultural or recreational thing.

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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by jacob » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:34 pm

@MA - Saddam Hussein did well for decades controlling a well-armed (AK47 in many households) populace with a Sunni minority of loyalists(*) to control a Shiite majority. That's what I'd worry about. That's what the A2 is about; and that's what everybody seems to ignore.

Pulling out/giving up only pertains to the special case of democratic foreign invaders who are subject to democratic pain tolerance. Resident dictators can hang around for the duration. I presume this is the problem the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the constitution. The British empire(**) had to same problem sustaining long supply lines dealing with American terrorists as the US now has dealing with terrorists in the ME. It's expensive and not all too popular domestically speaking. Dealing with residential (as opposed to ones on the other side of the planet) terrorists is an entirely different matter.

Unorganized resistance is a nuisance sufficient for a democracy to change their mind but not enough for a local authoritarian to give up.---They will just consider it the cost of doing business. They have no election fears. You don't need to win. You just need to stay in control. It's not a short war with winners and losers. It's a long one valued by whether it's worthwhile. The US could stay in Iraq easily if willing to tolerate the cost in dollars and lives (which is small) relative to the local civilian damage. I don't think this calculus is different domestically. This is why I doubt that an unorganized armed populace is anything more than a nuisance.

(*) Which later formed the backbone of ISIS when they were kicked out of the Iraqi army following Desert Storm 2 #unintended consequences.

(**) It's interesting that India solved the invasion problem by nonviolent moral means instead.

Mikeallison
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Mikeallison » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:03 pm

jacob wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:34 pm
@MA - Saddam Hussein did well for decades controlling a well-armed (AK47) populace with a [Sunni] minority of loyalists(*) to control a Shiite majority....

This is why I doubt that an unorganized armed populace is anything more than a nuisance.

Fair points but I would contend that The US is a very different place than Iraq. It's a very different place than Europe for that matter (in the heartland anyway). Are the men in the ranks primarily from red or blue states? Are they liberals? Or conservatives / libertarians? What is the guiding political ideology, what is the cultural one? The state was founded in revolution against what was seen as a tyrannical power. That is going to be the example people in the red States are looking towards, they aren't used to authoritarianism like the poor bastards in the middle east, and they won't put up with it.

Besides I can't see a situation where a single actor would be able to grab hold of the power necessary to control a place as divided, and as large and geographically complicated as the US. Balkanization seems much more likely. New York may get a dictator, but try it in Texas.

A better example than Iraq would be China during the revolution. Mao survived and defeated a much better equipped Chiang Kai Shek with those "nuisance" tactics.

But hey this is getting into some armchair general stuff now, I just hope they leave the guns alone, and we never have to find out.

Campitor
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Campitor » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:51 pm

jacob wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:34 pm
@MA - Saddam Hussein did well for decades controlling a well-armed (AK47 in many households) populace with a Sunni minority of loyalists(*) to control a Shiite majority. That's what I'd worry about. That's what the A2 is about; and that's what everybody seems to ignore.
Compared to the USA, Iraq's population is smaller by a significant degree and the country is 22x smaller than the US. A minority controlling the US would be a much steeper climb. After the 2nd Gulf War the script was flipped for the Sunnis. The majority Shia (64% of the population) took control of the government and the minority Sunni began a civil war that tore the country apart; they transmogrified themselves into ISIS. Without US and Russian intervention this minority Iraqi group would have destabilized the entire ME region. The Iraqi Sunnis were able to do this because they had military training, were intelligent, and picked their targets carefully - they fought wherever the enemy force multipliers (tanks, planes, helicopters) were not.

Basically the fight would be against former military personnel, chemists, engineers, machinists, lunatics, and factions of the military who took their oath to defend the Constitution of the USA seriously. There is no use arguing "what ifs" in this type of scenario since we honestly don't know what would happen or who would prevail. Perhaps the country fractures permanently with factions controlling swaths of territory and each side perpetuating a stream of never ending border skirmishes and incursions. Either way, regardless which side wins, US dominance on the world stage and the affluence of its citizens is over.

And this is why every citizen, soldier, and government official swears an oath to the Constitution and not to any office or person. This is why the Constitution should be upheld and amended legally and not overturned by extra-constitutional means. This document is the only thing holding this country together and allowing its importance to diminish is a slide into despotism and civil war. We already had 1 civil war and we barely made it out intact. The 2nd civil war will be a Pyrrhic victory no matter who wins. I think everyone understands this and I believe we are not even close to this happening. Cooler heads will prevail.

Augustus
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Augustus » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:20 pm

How did we devolve into the paranoid gun nut revolution fantasy? Regardless, the Boer war demonstrates it's possible to beat guerillas handily if youve got the stomach, I.e. Saddam. Time to watch some red dawn... But seriously, it's a really weird fantasy.

Saddam was twisted man. He sent the families an invoice for the bullet he used to shoot their relatives, no joke. I believe he also had a people shredder, like a paper shredder... for people.

I'm more interested in defending myself from serial killers like the night stalker. His victim selection criteria was checking to see if the back window was unlocked, if it was he crawled in and killed you, if not he checked your neighbor, and so on. I religiously lock all windows and doors thanks to him. Also high on my list are random thugs, their selection criteria seems to be proximity. I figure a dog, an alarm system (you can install it yourself diy), good automatic lighting, etc are plenty. Some day I'd like to build a little patrol drone, like my robot vacuum cleaner that vacuums and returns to Port to charge, then goes out vacuuming again. But that's mostly because I like robots...

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:12 pm

Augustus, I agree that my practical concern is the single crazed individual, not deterrence of the government. Just be careful that the robot you designate to protect you doesn’t obtain sentience, fall in love with your wife, and consider itself a suitable replacement of you. :shock:

While we are here, I don’t think it’s a total fantasy. We can see identity politics and the cultural wars drawing the battle lines. We have already had a Civil War in America, and as you might expect, the loyalty of the military was split. It just might take a few decades to develop, instead of years. These changes happen so slowly that it isn’t experienced by a whole generation. Only those who are students of history.

If you are an Oswald Spengler we-are-all-doomed type and believe in historical cycles, remember that in Ancient Rome, the Optimates lost. The ruling class killed itself off in civil wars until everyone kowtowed to one Emperor. Very frightening if you couple that scenario with modern technology.

We are already witnessing the consolidation of power in fewer hands by economic means. How soon will it be before digital images are so easily manipulated that you will literally not be able to believe your own eyes? (The ultimate “fake news.”) Can we really discern Democrats from Republicans at this point? Under both, socioeconomic stratification continues.

I don’t have any practical action items to defend against these dystopian “fantasies.” (I hope they don’t happen.)

The Devil succeeds by convincing us he does not exist. Maintain your sovereignty and your skepticism, the best you can.

Now if you don’t mind, I’m going to work on adding to my tin foil hat collection.

Augustus
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Augustus » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:12 pm
Augustus, I agree that my practical concern is the single crazed individual, not deterrence of the government. Just be careful that the robot you designate to protect you doesn’t obtain sentience, fall in love with your wife, and consider itself a suitable replacement of you. :shock: While we are here, I don’t think it’s a total fantasy.
I don't think it's a total fantasy either man, ai creeps me out. But think of it this way, I could go camping or world traveling and the robot could continue raising my family and doing my income generating activities! When I got sick of traveling I'd just ssh in to that back door I installed and deactivate the bot. Win win!
Now if you don’t mind, I’m going to work on adding to my tin foil hat collection.
I picked up this enlightening book on the Jews in Nazi Germany: https://www.amazon.com/Social-Outsiders ... 0691086842

IMO you'll lose against a hostile government. Instead of buying an arsenal, purchase dual citizenship. There are lots of options to do that. I'm pursuing Italian citizenship right now through an ancestor, costs about $4000 in legal fees and it's not a for sure outcome. After reading the book on the Jews above, I think anyone would agree your best bet is to GTFO, and to have an escape route planned, and to recognize where to draw the line. As soon as the Jews started having their businesses confiscated and boycotted, it was time to GTFO. But really, if you are paranoid, read that book, it's pretty incredible and worth while.

All of that said, this story repeats endlessly throughout history. The smart people emigrate. The smart hominids left Africa. The smart hunters crossed into north America. The smart Irish left Ireland. Etc etc etc etc. It doesn't even have to get so bad as persecution. Even bad economic prospects are a great reason to relocate. It's good to have options, buy your ticket out when it's cheap, not when everyone is scrambling for the exits.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:51 pm

I have thought about Italian citizenship as well, thru right of blood also, my blood brother.

I really don’t think going to Italy is a great option if the US falls apart, because at that point, all bets are off and nowhere is safe. Sounds like an option if you are being persecuted individually, however.

Who is “the government?” As I said, loyalties would be split. I doubt we could agree on who the Caesar would be. Multiple sides would lay claim to being “the government.” For every Marc Antony, also, an “Augustus.” ;)

Augustus
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Augustus » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:57 pm

Fleeing the country means taking a haircut. But seriously pick up that book if you're interested in the topic. I read it nonstop, couldn't put it down. It's not that Italy is the perfect destination, it's that no one wants refugees in a crisis. That's what the Jews ran into in Germany, the sensible ones tried to GTFO, but getting a Visa is impossible if you're in a refugee crises. The Italian citizenship is a guaranteed exit. The Jews who got stuck in Germany literally died because other countries, like America, refused to stamp their passport, and so they couldn't buy passage out. How messed up is that? Death by rubber stamp. Like I said, read the book, that story was repeated endlessly, it's horrifying.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:04 pm

I really don’t think that straight white male Mister Imperceptible is in any kind of danger in the near future here in America. I’m talking about a general collapse of the system. Do you have a gun to safeguard the zucchinis growing in your garden, when the shelves at the store go empty?

That book does look interesting though.

Augustus
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Augustus » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:37 pm

A limited collapse in the us is much more likely than a collapse of all westernized nation's simultaneously. Look at what happened in the collapse of the Roman empire or Alexander the greats empire. When they went down a nice life could still have been had in Byzantium or Egypt respectively, if you could get past the gate keeper. A much better life than fighting over zucchinis...

Otoh, if they all collapsed at once, due to either nuclear war or plague or environmental collapse, all bets are off. It would devolve into warlords, like it always does in a power vacuum. Join the biggest baddest gang you can find, going solo is a death sentence. In all likelihood, you would die.

Campitor
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Campitor » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:38 pm

Augustus wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:20 pm
How did we devolve into the paranoid gun nut revolution fantasy?
Invariably any discussion involving guns and/or the 2nd amendment will devolve into these rhetorical arguments regarding the effectiveness of small arms versus the government. All outcomes are plausible including the government is too powerful to fight or the country will fracture into a catastrophic civil war. I believe in the right to self defense but I'm a defender of the Constitution. If the right to bear arms was curtailed via a Constitutional amendment I would respect that decision. I would vehemently oppose, legally, any extra-constitutional abrogation of rights.

We are light years away from a civil war. It's the media feeding the hysteria that the US is fracturing into extreme partisanship in order to gain advertisement dollars via increased viewership. Most of America, and I would include myself among them, is politically down the middle. This is the silent majority that swings politics back to center when things get out of hand. No one wants a civil war nor is anyone close to launching a civil war.

Back to the original topic. Any gun and any bullet is better than no gun and no bullets in a fubar situation. There is no foretelling what scenario a rolling of the dice will bring and how it may or may not affect your choice of firearm or magazine capacity. I would assume we are all rational people and let facts guide our decisions. From what I've read myself and what's been posted in this topic regarding FBI gunshot statistics, the overwhelming evidence goes to having increased magazine capacity during a small arms private citizen exchange of fire.

I personally don't own a gun but I've shot many guns. My own experience during recreational shooting has been "I wish the gun/magazine/drum could hold more bullets".

But before having to brandish a gun in home defense or spending money to acquire a gun, I"d rather purchase secure doors, windows, iron bars (installed per firecode), and a loud alarm and strobe lights to deter intruders. At least long enough for 911 to arrive. I have friends who are in law enforcement and they all tell me that once you shoot a person justified or not, you're bank account, privacy, time, and reputation will take a hit.

I understand that my situation is different than others. I live in the Northeast in a densely populated city with a police station and fire department within half a mile. Both respond within minutes. The response time in my neighborhood is typically 2 to 3 minutes. I don't live in rural America where response times can be 1 hour or more. Gun ownership is a personal decision and only the owner can determine what type of armed defense is adequate to address his or her situation. Guns are like tools, different guns are best used for specific situations. I wouldn't use an impact hammer to hang a picture frame nor would I used a framing hammer to drive plate nails into reinforced concrete. I imagine 1 guy trying to kick down my steel door would warrant a 911 call and a 9mm S&W at the ready in case the alarm and threat of 911 doesn't drive him off. But I would want to have a AR15 with max magazine capacity if I encountered this: https://youtu.be/Uw-0nfVC2Rk?t=9.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Firearm Recommendations

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:35 pm

@Campitor

Thanks for bringing us back. I did check out your links on Page 1, and all of the links on this thread. Despite my armchair crackpot hypotheses, I am thinking about this rationally and with a view to safeguarding myself against a home defense situation I hope never arises.

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