Firearm Recommendations

[Mister Imperceptible]

In light of today’s highly polarized atmosphere, I am thinking it may be wise to exercise my Second Amendment rights while they are still intact. I don’t have a family to protect, but by the time I do, gun rights may be eroded. Personal sovereignty and the ability to defend myself are important to me.

I have never wielded a firearm but would take all the proper precautions and get all the proper training. Two friends have already invited me to go shooting to get an idea of what type of gun I might want to buy.

They recommend a Glock as a good beginner handgun. (One spoke negatively of “plastic guns.”) My friend says I should spend no more than $350.

A few have spoken highly of Sig Sauer, particularly the .45 for home defense, as you can shoot thru walls and leave a home invader unable to testify in court. They are expensive and my friends/colleagues recommend not starting with something that packs such a heavy punch.

An old colleague was quite fond of his Beretta.

My father only has air rifles but recommended a Ruger PC Carbine, easy to assemble and good for intermediate range (according to him). Perhaps a good compliment to a handgun? Not that I’m planning an arsenal, but if I end up with more than one gun, I would rather they have unique utilities/functions. Not looking for redundancies here just yet.

Any of you gun nuts (Riggerjack’s words) have recommendations?

[bryan]

For myself, it's not about home defense or concealed carry, at this time. I wouldn't mind spending more than $350 for something nice, but it really depends on your scenario (e.g. is ammo the more important factor than the platform?).

My top handguns (hypothesis, all expensive): sprigfield xd, glock 17, beretta 92FS (m9), FN Five-seveN, for revolvers S&W 627/929, or something more miniaturized than any of those. I've only shot a few different handguns.. none of those.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhz0GjjIOiM

For non-handguns.. well depends even more on your purpose. Shotguns, lever/bolt action rifles, short carbines, or expensive military semi-autos all have their use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4FESGjiH3s

[BRUTE]

you can shoot thru walls

that's great until Mister Imperceptible's family happens to stand behind the wall. or a neighbor. or the postman. then it just became manslaughter.

[Mister Imperceptible]

This is true, so maybe the .45 only comes out after I’ve heard the break-in/received fire. Or if I’m still single and there’s no reason for someone to be lurking on my property.

[Kriegsspiel]

Glocks are good, and you can get them for <$350. I have a Glock .40. Very simple, easy to clean, and reliable. They don't have a safety you have to flick or press, which is a positive in the event that you ever actually have to use it. If you get the Glock .40 or .357, you can get drop-in replacement barrels that let you shoot 9mm ammo. Also, the compact models accept any size magazine.

I had a Beretta 9mm in the Army, I like the Glock more.

[jacob]

Well, I looked into this too. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that guns are expensive pieces of metal that I'd probably never really get to practice with. I live in the suburbs surrounded by police and neighbors (watch system in place) and the crime heat map is all green. As far as I'm concerned, running beats castle doctrine, subsequent lawsuits, the increased risk of shooting a family member or a neighbor fooling around in the backyard in the middle of the night for whatever reason, etc. => Low hassle/drama is more important to me, so ultimately I decided to punt on ownership. In any case, this is what I came up with after spending an ungodly amount of time looking into it a couple of years ago:

Glock17 (all the way) in 9mm. It's cheap ammo. Militaries all over the world uses it (both the gun and the ammo). Most importantly, you'll hit what you aim at. It's my understanding that police, FBI, etc. have switched to .40 S&W for more stopping power(+). I understand that big bullets and the big guns that fire them are all cool and sexy, but it was recommended to "get over that phase" and buy something of a more practical size to start with and only "upgrade" later.

(+) But see this: http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapon ... liber.aspx

FWIW, I know the Springfield XD is pretty popular ... but, not my style.

There's a saying to "beware of the man with one gun, he knows how to use it". I don't think a break-in is the best time to decide which gun is optimal for the situation or to use an unfamiliar one.

As brute mentioned, bullets going through walls means the very real potential to hit family in other rooms, neighbors in other houses, and people living down the street or driving past in cars. This shit happens in the bad neighborhoods in Chicago way too much with civilians catching some random gang-bullet. Civilian and police ammo for defense is very much built with the goal NOT to go through much beyond the first body it hits. So unless you live in the sticks, this is also why a rifle for defense is massive overkill unless your nearest neighbor is 400yd+ away or you harbor fantasies about stopping a zombie invasion. Also, legally, you don't want to "reach" that far out. Justifying shooting in self-defense at something 60 yards away could seem rather dubious to a jury. Also ... if people are coming after you with a rifle then probably better to go into the witness protection program or something. That's just my opinion based on weighing the pros and cons and the odds. Everybody is entitled to their own, but there might come a day where you might have to deal with others' opinions. Which leads me to ...

Shotguns. They are easy to acquire and has little of the stigma of rifles (of the non-hunting variety) and less of the practice and permits required with a handgun. Pointing and aiming works pretty damn well for short ranges. Also, they can shoot pretty much everything: Hunting rounds, bird rounds, deer rounds, bear rounds, human rounds, ... There are essentially two choices here: mossberg500 and remington870. Both are classics and come in a ton of different models. You can buy one for ~$500. Experts are not able to agree which one of these is "best", so go with what feels/swings better in your hand/intuitively lines up with your sight. I like classic beads. Fancy sights are slow for me.

Bonus: I kinda think revolvers are cool. So during my big-gun phase, I was seriously eyeing a Ruger Redhawk, alternatively a Blackhawk.

[theanimal]

There are essentially two choices here: mossberg500 and remington870. Both are classics and come in a ton of different models. You can buy one for ~$500.

If you're in a state where people have a lot of guns you can find a remington 870 for $150-300.

I'm planning on picking one up by fall.

[Chris]

In what situation would you need the ability to defend yourself? If it's for protection of the home, consider a shotgun. Aside from being more physically imposing than a handgun (both visually and aurally), you're less likely to miss: just turn and pull.

But if you've never shot before, don't put the cart before the horse. Go out a bunch of times and try all kinds; see what you're comfortable with. Statistically, you're unlikely no ever need a gun in a real-life situation. So before plopping money down, find something you'd like to use recreationally.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@jacob

I understand your rationale. I followed Riggerjack’s explanations in the other threads and I have found his reasoning resonates with me and is exceedingly logical. I would rather be empowered than not. Maybe I will change my mind.

I own a Civic, so buying something that is reliable/affordable is right up my alley. Maybe the Glock is perfect for that reason.

The Sig Sauer 45 advice was from someone living in the sticks. He owns a full arsenal of rifles and handguns, including an AR-15, so perhaps his advice is not so applicable.

Thanks for the shotgun tips.

@the animal

Thanks for the tip.

@Chris

Recreational use would be a nice bonus, but I would be getting it for an emergency I hope never arises. I agree, I need to shoot a bunch before buying.

@bryan

Thanks for the links I will check them out.

[Riggerjack]

I started with a Glock 22, a full sized, .40 caliber Glock. It was used, a former sheriff's department gun, so it came with tritium sights. I paid just over $300 in 2002, I believe. Glocks started the plastic gun thing, and people like what they like. I like polymer pistols, but I have chosen aluminum for my AR receivers.

Any of the modern semi-automatic pistols are fine, and I would recommend based on feel more than anything. Guns come in different sizes, as do hands. Make sure your pistol is comfortable in one hand and both.

The Colt 1911, the classic .45, had a single stack magazine in .45, so they commonly carry 7-8 rounds in a magazine, the spring in the magazine is weak, so magazines are very easy to load. Glocks, and most modern pistols use a double stack magazine, feed a round in from the top, and it goes down, and left, the next goes down and right. You end up with a magazine that is wider, but carries far more ammo. My Glock carries 16 in the magazine, one more in the chamber. Loading Glock magazines for a day's shooting, is signing up for a sore thumb. Since magazines are fed through the grip, a double stack magazine makes for a pistol built for medium to large hands.

Kick. Semi auto pistols reduce kick by using some of the energy to cycle the gun. But a general idea of what kind of kick you will experience is to look at the muzzle energy of the ammunition. But that is just a general idea. In the same caliber, you will get more kick from a lighter gun or from a revolver.

Look through the site. Target on something, look at how much of your target is not visible, because the sights and gun are in the way. Think of what lining up those sights in poor lighting is going to be like.

Look for a local gun range that will rent you a variety of handguns. When I bought my Glock, it was after trying everything they had. $15 for the rental, and way too much for ammo, but it's the best way to get a feel for what is out there. Gun ranges make money renting and selling the guns, but most of their income comes from selling ammo and accessories. Most require you to buy ammo for rental guns in house. This protects their profit margins.

How all of this works in practice, is me, at 6 foot, 260 lbs, I prefer my Glock .40. I fire it either hand, braced and un-braced, and it works great. My wife, 10 inches shorter, and more than 100 lbs lighter, has a hard time holding it still, and it jams about every other round. She fires a Kimber 1911 .45, which she calls her "marshmallow gun" in that it feels like shooting marshmallows. Her words, but she is describing a heavier pistol, shooting a heavier, slower, bigger bullet. We did some minor tuning to make sure it was comfortable for her.

And that is another issue. Accessories. The more popular the gun, the more bits to choose from. Holster, replacement parts, custom parts, etc. The more popular the gun, the easier and better the accessories, in general.

And because this is always a concern, I recommend anyone making their first firearms purchase to consider buying high cap magazines, if available, while they are available. The rules change, and as someone who bought his first gun during the assault weapons ban, I know they will always be around, but they are much harder to come by and expensive once banned. When I bought my Glock, it came with 2 ten round magazines, and I bought a 16 round magazine for $75, used. After the ban, these sold for $20, new.

If you think you may be interested in an ar-15, at some point in the future, I recommend buying an AR-15 lower receiver, and hi cap magazines. This is the part that has the numbers, and gets treated legally as the firearm. To buy it, you have to go through a gun dealer (FFL, Federal firearms license), background check, etc but you can buy one for under $100 ($49 on sale, before taxes and fees). But if the law changes where you are, you will probably be grandfathered in. This is what I have done. I have a case of high cap mags and a half dozen lower receivers, sitting in the bottom of my gun safe waiting for me to get around to a build.

For home defense, there are different philosophies. So like pistols. Some like shotguns. Many people think the sound of cocking a 12 ga is a form of defense in itself. Me, not so much, but that's up to you. As Jacob mentioned, wall penetration is a concern, both interior walls and exterior. Hollywood special effects are stopped by drywall, trash cans, cars, etc. Bullets, far less so. Google "box of truth" to find a couple of old Texans "testing penetration claims" of various ammunition and objects. Pro tip: the most bullet resistant part of a car is the upholstery, if there isn't a seat between you and a shooter, don't expect anything else to do much good.

I have seen tests of 2 simulated 2x6 exterior walls stopping .223 rounds from AR-15's. But I wouldn't be comfortable using 2 real walls as cover, so I don't ask my neighbors to do the same. In my Whidbey house, the neighbors are at a distance, behind hills and trees, so this isn't the same concern. But most bullets will penetrate an exterior wall. You know your house. Factor in safety.

And all propaganda from each side to the contrary, odds are very good, that unless you invite drama, you will never have a reason to need your gun. While defensive use is common, this is primarily in small public facing businesses. Hot home invasions (meaning the victim is known to be home) are still very rare in the US. I highly recommend you read up on personal accounts of the aftermath of a defensive firearms use. It is absolutely to be avoided by anyone with any sense. The best case, if you need it, is still pretty bad. The true best case, is not to need it. Everything else is choosing the best of some bad, and some very bad results.

[George the original one]

I have medium hands and find 9mm double stack about the maximum I can hold comfortably. 45 ACP double stack is just too wide. Small hands are probably better served with a single stack magazine.

Shotguns have a lot going for them up until you want a high capacity magazine and/or need to maneuver in tight hallways.

[Campitor]

I think your choice of armament will depend on where you live and the likelihood of a burglary vs a home invasion. For example, I remember reading a state department memo warning US citizens living next to the Mexican border to be wary of home invasions and kidnappings. Scaring off a burglar vs fighting off 4 criminals intent on home invasion/kidnapping will determine how you arm yourself.

• Arizona home invasion video: https://youtu.be/DuhKCiY-lu0
• Handgun penetrating tests: https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/27_11/ ... ptIQBPwbOQ

If you live in an urbanized environment that is relatively safe with an active and properly manned police force, you'll most likely need just an insulated steel door with 4 point locks coupled with reinforced hinges and door frames, bars on key windows, and a panic button that lights up your property instantly, sets off a loud alarm, and auto-dials 911.

[Sclass]

... There are essentially two choices here: mossberg500 and remington870. Both are classics and come in a ton of different models. You can buy one for ~$500. Experts are not able to agree which one of these is "best", so go with what feels/swings better in your hand/intuitively lines up with your sight. I like classic beads. Fancy sights are slow for me.

These are the popular choices for pumps. I own a Winchester Defender 1300 which doesn’t get mentioned as much as the 870 or Mossberg. It has a slimmer polymer stock and receiver and holds 9 12ga shells rather than 8. It is lighter and swings better. I find the pump action is smoother. Old timers tell me because the Winchester rotary pump action has always been that way. Just a thought. For some reason these aren’t mentioned much. Law enforcement seems to like the 870. There are a bunch of youtube videos of guys cycling defenders very quickly. Way faster than a gas operated auto.

It reminds me of revolvers. When somebody knows how to really double action a revolver it is a fearsome sight. However mere mortals should stick to the above mentioned pistols. Ammo and actions are very reliable now.

I don’t own a Glock but after I read the book I really wanted one. Less parts, more reliability and reinvented by an outsider. What more is there to love? I have a three generation gun collection and haven’t bothered to go modern. Too many guns from dad and granddad. My “assault rifle”? Winchester 94.

Part of me hates this stuff after all these years. I’m deeply conflicted about the collection.

Be safe. Get some training.

[Farm_or]

Taurus Judge. I'm surprised that nobody else mentioned this tool. It is the ultimate home defense weapon. It's got the positive attributes of a dependable revolver; it will not jam in an emergency. It's chambered for 4-10 shotgun or 45. It's a handgun / shotgun for about $350.

Considering 9mm? There's good reason that the FBI, your local sheriff, and most law enforcement have gone away. The marginal stopping power created negative publicity because they had to shoot subjects more than multiple times. Too much lead flying everywhere. I have shot several 9mm. They are not a good home defense choice. But don't just take my word for it, do a little research. In any case, a revolver is a better choice than an auto for emergency home defense.

[jacob]

Don't fall for all of the hype of add-ons and tactical bullshit.

I dunno man, how would you otherwise maintain that all-important hydration in the middle of a fire-fight without one of these and two of those?

Also, objects may be closer than they appear. Never go dinosaur hunting without one.

[BRUTE]

Tactical Bottle Opener

tactical just means black, doesn't it?

[jacob]

@brute - No, so you can put the spray can back again now

[Campitor]

Considering 9mm? There's good reason that the FBI, your local sheriff, and most law enforcement have gone away. The marginal stopping power created negative publicity because they had to shoot subjects more than multiple times. Too much lead flying everywhere. I have shot several 9mm. They are not a good home defense choice. But don't just take my word for it, do a little research. In any case, a revolver is a better choice than an auto for emergency home defense.

Some info regarding caliber and stopping power: Handgun Stopping Power: Sizing Up Your Options - the bottom contains charts regarding velocity, penetration depth, and expansion factor.

Compare some of the 9mm readings to the .357 output. The .357 caliber had consistently higher velocity but some of the 9mm rounds achieved near equivalent penetration and expansion. I guess you just need to get the right bullet? I'm no ballistic expert but I'd rather try fighting with a 9mm than a .357 because of recoil.

The linked article does point out that most post mortem examination rarely show 1 shot kills because it's hard to hit a vital organ in a firefight even when aiming at center mass. More shots on target increases the odds of stopping (killing) an assailant.

@ ffj - that pic is hilarious!

Edit:
Another article that may help decide the 9mm vs .357 for self defense considerations: Personal-Defense Handgun Pick: 9mm Luger or 357 Magnum?

[BRUTE]

always a great idea to catch the recoil with the cheekbone. gives the shoulder a rest.

[Curmudgeon]

No specific firearms recommendations from me, but more generally:
1) Try before you buy. There are ranges that will let you rent/borrow guns before purchase. Having something you're comfortable with is more important than something a friend (or internet forum) recommends.
2) Educate yourself: Before you consider using a gun for defensive use, there is a lot to learn - how to carry and use legally, how to train, etc. Massad Ayoob is an author and blogger whose work you might want to read.
3) Train yourself: A gun is no better than a rock (and probably worse) if you aren't proficient with it. Plan to spend money, regularly, on practice.
4) Join an advocacy group such as the NRA. Your right to keep and bear arms is probably the most endangered civil right in the Bill of Rights. Work to defend not just yourself, but your RIGHT to defend yourself.