Hi everyone, I'm new here to ERE and just finished reading Jacob's book.
So I'm having a moral struggle with taking the ERE plunge primarily because of what it may or may not do for my kids. The logic in the chapter about children was pretty sound. If I do this, it will be my CHOICE. Am I in any way limiting my children's opportunities when they are grown? I grew up poor, and my parents made sacrifices for me to go to a great school and now I'm financially wealthy by almost all definitions. I have no intentions of spoiling my kids, but how do I ensure I also don't limit their potential through my choices?
Is anyone actually living this lifestyle already that has children? I would love to know more.
How Does This Actually Work With Kids?
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George the original one
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My wife & I don't have children, so you can discount what I'm going to write:
If parents raise their children and the children successfully graduate high school (or exit early, not late, with GED), then the children have at least an average opportunity. By also teaching them what it takes to lead an ERE lifestyle, then they also are far better equipped for life than the average child.
If parents raise their children and the children successfully graduate high school (or exit early, not late, with GED), then the children have at least an average opportunity. By also teaching them what it takes to lead an ERE lifestyle, then they also are far better equipped for life than the average child.
My daughter is a Junior in college but we've lived an ERE lifestyle for the past 8 years or so.
Yes, we have a college fund for our daughter and she drives one of out two vehicles but this isn't our real gift to her. We gave our time, and hopefully, our values to her.
Our daughter has to work while she is a student and she is expected tp live "without excess." When we had those same doubts that you brought up we decided that as long as the essentials are covered, as well as a few "extra's", what was really being sacrificed? Nothing we could think of. The best things you give to your children, IMHO, are your love and time.
Don't be guilty because you have been financially astute.
djc
Yes, we have a college fund for our daughter and she drives one of out two vehicles but this isn't our real gift to her. We gave our time, and hopefully, our values to her.
Our daughter has to work while she is a student and she is expected tp live "without excess." When we had those same doubts that you brought up we decided that as long as the essentials are covered, as well as a few "extra's", what was really being sacrificed? Nothing we could think of. The best things you give to your children, IMHO, are your love and time.
Don't be guilty because you have been financially astute.
djc
I have 2 very young children (toddler & infant) so they will grow-up in this lifestyle with us. Right now, they have everything they need and want. Here is what they have now:
- Shelter (we live in a nice spacious 2 bedroom townhome with a HUGE backyard that costs $520/month in mortgage and $80/month in dues) This actually meets the ERE standard of $300/month per person.
- Beautiful furniture (from discounted outlet stores and hand- me-downs, DH does nice basic woodwork himself for this)
- Gorgeous wardrobe (more hand-me-downs from friends)
- Great Book Collection and Toys (freecycle, from friends, discount amazon, will start using the library soon!)
- Food (since I like to buy Certified Organic, use a discounted organic co-op and grow your own)
- Diapers (there is an option to use re-usuable, washable diapers which saves a TON of money)
-Day Care: we don't use it much since I work part-time only
-Health Care: I am blessed that my part-time job covers the entire family
- OUR TIME!!! this is the most important. We have time to talk alot, read alot, sing alot, dance alot, play outdoors alot-ALL FREE activities that we all love to do.
So as you can see,it is possible to have happy children whose needs and wants are fully met in ERE Style. I am hoping that more people with OLDER children can talk about their experiences here too.
- Shelter (we live in a nice spacious 2 bedroom townhome with a HUGE backyard that costs $520/month in mortgage and $80/month in dues) This actually meets the ERE standard of $300/month per person.
- Beautiful furniture (from discounted outlet stores and hand- me-downs, DH does nice basic woodwork himself for this)
- Gorgeous wardrobe (more hand-me-downs from friends)
- Great Book Collection and Toys (freecycle, from friends, discount amazon, will start using the library soon!)
- Food (since I like to buy Certified Organic, use a discounted organic co-op and grow your own)
- Diapers (there is an option to use re-usuable, washable diapers which saves a TON of money)
-Day Care: we don't use it much since I work part-time only
-Health Care: I am blessed that my part-time job covers the entire family
- OUR TIME!!! this is the most important. We have time to talk alot, read alot, sing alot, dance alot, play outdoors alot-ALL FREE activities that we all love to do.
So as you can see,it is possible to have happy children whose needs and wants are fully met in ERE Style. I am hoping that more people with OLDER children can talk about their experiences here too.
Thanks everyone for your guidance. A lot of this for me is getting over the mental barrier. I grew up in a low income family and I've been blessed with sacrificing parents, a great wife, and natural ability that has me making very upper class money.
I know I need to leave my job, it just feels right. I just need to know that I don't selfishly undo the sacrifices my parent made for me by doing the opposite for my kids. At the same time, given how unhappy I am, I wonder if I'd be doing them a service by setting different life goals.
I know I need to leave my job, it just feels right. I just need to know that I don't selfishly undo the sacrifices my parent made for me by doing the opposite for my kids. At the same time, given how unhappy I am, I wonder if I'd be doing them a service by setting different life goals.
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jacob
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@tjt - You may want to read this thread about us as kids.
You may have to define opportunities. Do you mean the ability to go to an expensive college?
To me opportunities means presenting options. When I grew up I wasn't presented with many options but I was allowed to choose and supported in choosing the options I found. I think this is the next best case. The best case would be in knowing the many options: salary man, business man, working man, renaissance man, and then being supported in the choice. The worst case is the "you have to go to college and become a salary man because this is the only way to make money and money will make you happy"; or "ya don't need a fancy edumacation degree, you get a real honest job like yer dad"; or even "working for money is for suckers, just save a few hundred k, and learn to do all these little things yourself, and you'll have plenty of time to ..."
As you know, ending up in the wrong quadrant is no fun. When I grew up, the only quadrants that were visible to me were the working man and the salary man. I didn't have the slightest idea about how to making a living running a business nor how to make a living as an investor and in terms of DIY we only went as far as putting up shelves and assembling IKEA furniture. I have had many write me thanking me for opening their eyes so to speak because the only opportunity they saw was to get a career and make money and that the reason they weren't happy was because they thought they didn't make enough and so they worked even harder, etc. Their parents could likely have spared them some grief by presenting a different option. Conversely, I'm far from suggesting that kids be forced into some ERE scheme. This may make them equally unhappy. Maybe they were born to be company men. This is for them to figure out by themselves, in my opinion, but knowing what options are there certainly makes this figuring out easy.
This lack of known options is also part of the reason why I keep ERE alive. If I can give a dozen people new hope on an annual basis, it's worth keeping the site alive.
You may have to define opportunities. Do you mean the ability to go to an expensive college?
To me opportunities means presenting options. When I grew up I wasn't presented with many options but I was allowed to choose and supported in choosing the options I found. I think this is the next best case. The best case would be in knowing the many options: salary man, business man, working man, renaissance man, and then being supported in the choice. The worst case is the "you have to go to college and become a salary man because this is the only way to make money and money will make you happy"; or "ya don't need a fancy edumacation degree, you get a real honest job like yer dad"; or even "working for money is for suckers, just save a few hundred k, and learn to do all these little things yourself, and you'll have plenty of time to ..."
As you know, ending up in the wrong quadrant is no fun. When I grew up, the only quadrants that were visible to me were the working man and the salary man. I didn't have the slightest idea about how to making a living running a business nor how to make a living as an investor and in terms of DIY we only went as far as putting up shelves and assembling IKEA furniture. I have had many write me thanking me for opening their eyes so to speak because the only opportunity they saw was to get a career and make money and that the reason they weren't happy was because they thought they didn't make enough and so they worked even harder, etc. Their parents could likely have spared them some grief by presenting a different option. Conversely, I'm far from suggesting that kids be forced into some ERE scheme. This may make them equally unhappy. Maybe they were born to be company men. This is for them to figure out by themselves, in my opinion, but knowing what options are there certainly makes this figuring out easy.
This lack of known options is also part of the reason why I keep ERE alive. If I can give a dozen people new hope on an annual basis, it's worth keeping the site alive.
I don't have children.. but i used to be one! 
For what it is worth:
I think ERE shouldn't be causing too much trouble raising children. I think the essentials for raising children are: healthy housing, healthy food, getting stimulated in whatever they want to do, knowing their parents will be there in good and bad times and giving them a proper 'framework' of values to live with.. oh.. and i almost forget a proper education (which is done mostly at home and at school they will deliver the content/degree). All those things can get covered by people living the ERE lifestyle as well (or in some cases even better than people living another lifestyle).
Home/family should be like an airport.. all supporting facilities are there to keep the airplanes in the air and with some luck reaching their destinations. The people at the airport don't have much influence on the final destination of the airplane. It can be indicated that a certain airplane will land on a nice exotic destination, but if the pilot decides to go to another destination.. well then the airport can't influence it that much, maybe just signal some other airplanes/obstacles to avoid disasters happening, but that is it. The same goes for children, you can give them the best facilities and directions, but once in the air they will decide what will be the destination themselves (so they better know what are the possibilities). So they better know they have all the fuel they need, a decent runway, know how to take off and put the plane back on the ground safely and have the knowledge they can return to the airport whenever they think they are in trouble or need another launch. For the ERE argument: it doesn't matter how many terminals, fuel tanks, business lounges, traffic towers, radar stations, push back vehicles, runways, .. the airport has. The most important thing is that everything that is needed is there.. nothing more, nothing less. Most of the times the smaller the airport, the more efficient the things work out!
For what it is worth:I think ERE shouldn't be causing too much trouble raising children. I think the essentials for raising children are: healthy housing, healthy food, getting stimulated in whatever they want to do, knowing their parents will be there in good and bad times and giving them a proper 'framework' of values to live with.. oh.. and i almost forget a proper education (which is done mostly at home and at school they will deliver the content/degree). All those things can get covered by people living the ERE lifestyle as well (or in some cases even better than people living another lifestyle).
Home/family should be like an airport.. all supporting facilities are there to keep the airplanes in the air and with some luck reaching their destinations. The people at the airport don't have much influence on the final destination of the airplane. It can be indicated that a certain airplane will land on a nice exotic destination, but if the pilot decides to go to another destination.. well then the airport can't influence it that much, maybe just signal some other airplanes/obstacles to avoid disasters happening, but that is it. The same goes for children, you can give them the best facilities and directions, but once in the air they will decide what will be the destination themselves (so they better know what are the possibilities). So they better know they have all the fuel they need, a decent runway, know how to take off and put the plane back on the ground safely and have the knowledge they can return to the airport whenever they think they are in trouble or need another launch. For the ERE argument: it doesn't matter how many terminals, fuel tanks, business lounges, traffic towers, radar stations, push back vehicles, runways, .. the airport has. The most important thing is that everything that is needed is there.. nothing more, nothing less. Most of the times the smaller the airport, the more efficient the things work out!
To me, this is the best thread yet! We routinely say to one another, "If it were just us..." A wide variety of living with less, having more freedoms, etc etc can be inserted after the periods. That being said I am not wishing away the formative years of my eight and ten year old children but simply portraying to readers of this post how hard it is to balance ERE ideals with influencing great, young minds. It is by far the biggest obstacle thus far in our journey.
It is very interesting to me that if the concrete identifiers of having children or not having children were taken away from the above posts, I believe that I could easily identify if the writer had or did not have children. Before we had children we had strong beliefs about what kind of parents we would be, how our children would behave, and how we would deal with everyday parenting. We ARE NOT the idealistic parents that we envisioned ourselves as before our children. We continue to evolve and we are two of the best, loving parents that I know of. Good Parenting is a lot of work. In my opinion that is why there are not many good parents.
This thread is exciting to me because of the wide variety of ideas that have and will appear. I like hearing from those who do not have children but if you do not consider parenting a known unknown, you should reevaluate. I think being a good parent requires an often inventory and evaluation of expression and goals.
The promise of more time and love makes the children joyful. I hope as the thread evolves I can begin to find a way to help my very spoiled children believe that our ERE is best.
It is very interesting to me that if the concrete identifiers of having children or not having children were taken away from the above posts, I believe that I could easily identify if the writer had or did not have children. Before we had children we had strong beliefs about what kind of parents we would be, how our children would behave, and how we would deal with everyday parenting. We ARE NOT the idealistic parents that we envisioned ourselves as before our children. We continue to evolve and we are two of the best, loving parents that I know of. Good Parenting is a lot of work. In my opinion that is why there are not many good parents.
This thread is exciting to me because of the wide variety of ideas that have and will appear. I like hearing from those who do not have children but if you do not consider parenting a known unknown, you should reevaluate. I think being a good parent requires an often inventory and evaluation of expression and goals.
The promise of more time and love makes the children joyful. I hope as the thread evolves I can begin to find a way to help my very spoiled children believe that our ERE is best.
We don't have children...............yet. But DW and I do plan to raise a family. My thoughts:
1. Firstly, I don't take the same line as Jacob puts it, that this is one of those many "paradox of choices" that we have to wrestle with, etc. In the interests of being fair, he's even thrown dust on his own back like an elephant ("save a few 100k...learn to do all these.....")
. Not needed to delve so deep at all IMO.
2. Take one step further, the question itself is a non sequitur -- no offence meant to the OP's sentiments please.
Why is it non sequitur? Because, children are very uncomplicated beings (See, I could have said "simple beings", but then again I am a "grown up"!). Children learn what they live. It may sound trite, but it is the golden truth. All pontification aside, children simply copy what we do, and not what we say!
100 years ago, children happily followed the footsteps of their parents and so on, because they found that their forbears rightly displayed pride in how they lived, what they did and what they were. I can point to so many stories where a Vietnamese master blacksmith or a Japanese sheet metal worker or a drum maker...etc...etc... repeatedly tells in an interview that he advised his son not to follow his footsteps.
What message are we sending to children? They are not bewildered by choices.... They are confused by the messages we send them. They don't come to this World with beliefs systems such as "I want to be a company man". For better or worse, the family and the mentors around them instill this belief system in them!
I firmly believe that by simply living your (ERE-type) life through your actions (we call it Karma Yoga) you serve the best "choice" the child can decide upon. 'nuff said
Speaking of conflicting signals, here's a cartoon strip on that aspect, to lighten the mood somewhat.
1. Firstly, I don't take the same line as Jacob puts it, that this is one of those many "paradox of choices" that we have to wrestle with, etc. In the interests of being fair, he's even thrown dust on his own back like an elephant ("save a few 100k...learn to do all these.....")
. Not needed to delve so deep at all IMO.2. Take one step further, the question itself is a non sequitur -- no offence meant to the OP's sentiments please.
Why is it non sequitur? Because, children are very uncomplicated beings (See, I could have said "simple beings", but then again I am a "grown up"!). Children learn what they live. It may sound trite, but it is the golden truth. All pontification aside, children simply copy what we do, and not what we say!
100 years ago, children happily followed the footsteps of their parents and so on, because they found that their forbears rightly displayed pride in how they lived, what they did and what they were. I can point to so many stories where a Vietnamese master blacksmith or a Japanese sheet metal worker or a drum maker...etc...etc... repeatedly tells in an interview that he advised his son not to follow his footsteps.
What message are we sending to children? They are not bewildered by choices.... They are confused by the messages we send them. They don't come to this World with beliefs systems such as "I want to be a company man". For better or worse, the family and the mentors around them instill this belief system in them!
I firmly believe that by simply living your (ERE-type) life through your actions (we call it Karma Yoga) you serve the best "choice" the child can decide upon. 'nuff said
Speaking of conflicting signals, here's a cartoon strip on that aspect, to lighten the mood somewhat.
No offence to the OP, but I find this thread confusing.
If ERE is important enough as to be worth pursuing, wouldn't you want to teach your children ERE also? What better way to teach them than by example?
Personally, I give my children what I value the most myself - knowledge, experience, and maturity. If I found the latest trinkets to be more valuable than my time, then I wouldn't be pursuing ERE in the first place, and I wouldn't worry about my children having to make material 'sacrifices'.
Feeling guilty about raising mature, responsible ERE children who aren't spoiled material brats seems somewhat...paradoxical to me. I mean - if YOU believe that being a consumerist wage slave your whole life is a sad and depressing way to live, so much so that you would pursue ERE, why in the world would you want to teach your CHILDREN to grow up to become sad consumerist wage slaves?
This thread seems confusing. It's like my brain is throwing up the 'does not compute' error...
If ERE is important enough as to be worth pursuing, wouldn't you want to teach your children ERE also? What better way to teach them than by example?
Personally, I give my children what I value the most myself - knowledge, experience, and maturity. If I found the latest trinkets to be more valuable than my time, then I wouldn't be pursuing ERE in the first place, and I wouldn't worry about my children having to make material 'sacrifices'.
Feeling guilty about raising mature, responsible ERE children who aren't spoiled material brats seems somewhat...paradoxical to me. I mean - if YOU believe that being a consumerist wage slave your whole life is a sad and depressing way to live, so much so that you would pursue ERE, why in the world would you want to teach your CHILDREN to grow up to become sad consumerist wage slaves?
This thread seems confusing. It's like my brain is throwing up the 'does not compute' error...
Because I feel this thread involves subject matter so close to our being, I feel compelled to respond to most comments.
@Surio I appreciate your comments and light hearted affect!
I wish that the parent child relationship was as uncomplicated and direct as what you mention. My children's upbringing has been complicated by nearly unrestrained fulfillment of wants (spoiled brats) and assimilation into the mainstream upward mobile stream as deemed appropriate in our midwestern "normal" lifestyle. They are very mannered, straight A, good kids. When they go somewhere we receive numerous compliments about how "they wish their kids acted like that" or "they have such good manners"
I think what you mention is appropriate to about age 4 unless you home school or are the parent of a very weird child. I do not have a problem with being weird or being the parent of a weird child. I do have a problem with being the parent of a previously "popular" child who know is being considered weird because her dad refuses to spend $60 on friday night for a movie and popcorn. I use this as an arbitrary example because I can see it in the near future. This child is unfortunately going to be somehow "unhappy" by what is going on.
Emotion of the child is the hard part to deal with. The concrete sequential thought processes of the adult perspective of ERE is easy at this point. The increased availability of the parent is readily accepted by the spoiled brat but it is hard for them to see the connection of increased availability and decreased $$.
Despite my earning potential, my family sees me as a modern Renaissance Man as I complete tasks that most would seem unfit for. I think that my children are more "well rounded" than most. I have trouble trying to devise a scheme to get them to think that telling their friends that coming over to spend the night in our cargo container on our farm is "cool"
I am positive that we are sending conflicting signals and I search desperately to find a way to assimilate it all!
@Piper My daughter often asks me "what's wrong" and I know that this cartoon is in the back of her mind
@ M
This thread is not at all confusing. I wish I had started here years ago.....But I did not. Working my way through is tough enough. I wish not to be a wage slave, working man or any other subordinate to the system. Even more, I do not wish this for my children!! Considering the thoughts of an almost onboard wife and oblivious children really do complicate the process.
@Surio I appreciate your comments and light hearted affect!
I wish that the parent child relationship was as uncomplicated and direct as what you mention. My children's upbringing has been complicated by nearly unrestrained fulfillment of wants (spoiled brats) and assimilation into the mainstream upward mobile stream as deemed appropriate in our midwestern "normal" lifestyle. They are very mannered, straight A, good kids. When they go somewhere we receive numerous compliments about how "they wish their kids acted like that" or "they have such good manners"
I think what you mention is appropriate to about age 4 unless you home school or are the parent of a very weird child. I do not have a problem with being weird or being the parent of a weird child. I do have a problem with being the parent of a previously "popular" child who know is being considered weird because her dad refuses to spend $60 on friday night for a movie and popcorn. I use this as an arbitrary example because I can see it in the near future. This child is unfortunately going to be somehow "unhappy" by what is going on.
Emotion of the child is the hard part to deal with. The concrete sequential thought processes of the adult perspective of ERE is easy at this point. The increased availability of the parent is readily accepted by the spoiled brat but it is hard for them to see the connection of increased availability and decreased $$.
Despite my earning potential, my family sees me as a modern Renaissance Man as I complete tasks that most would seem unfit for. I think that my children are more "well rounded" than most. I have trouble trying to devise a scheme to get them to think that telling their friends that coming over to spend the night in our cargo container on our farm is "cool"
I am positive that we are sending conflicting signals and I search desperately to find a way to assimilate it all!
@Piper My daughter often asks me "what's wrong" and I know that this cartoon is in the back of her mind
@ M
This thread is not at all confusing. I wish I had started here years ago.....But I did not. Working my way through is tough enough. I wish not to be a wage slave, working man or any other subordinate to the system. Even more, I do not wish this for my children!! Considering the thoughts of an almost onboard wife and oblivious children really do complicate the process.
I have absolutely no idea what it feels like to be popular as a child. I was always the most unpopular or the second-most unpopular girl in school growing up. The other kids were absolutely awful toward me. I do not know why exactly. Sure, I was deprived of fancy store-bought clothes (moms sewed clothes back then), but that was never what they teased me for. They told me I was ugly. They made fun of me for not shaving my legs. They hated me because I was not good at team sports. They hated me because I was smart and got good grades. They hated me because I was naive, didn't have boyfriends or smoke pot or drink or stay up late and watch Saturday Night Live.
None of that had anything to do with the material things my parents gave to me, and they gave me many things. I got music and dance lessons. I learned 4 different instruments. I got to travel. I had normal toys like other kids. I always had a bicycle and the freedom to go anywhere I wanted unsupervised from the age of 5 onward. I got a car before I had a license to drive. I was totally well-off and yet still unpopular.
So I really don't think telling your kid they have to go get a job if they want to go out to the movies is going to hurt their popularity. And if I'm wrong, so what? Look at me, the most unpopular girl in school (after the one with the dandruff and back brace.) Somehow I'm still here and actually found people who love me and think I'm beautiful (they must be blind) and I've actually achieved a level of coolness and popularity in adult life that I never could have attained in childhood. I actually can go few places locally without people knowing who I am, which is disconcerting but a totally other story.
None of that had anything to do with the material things my parents gave to me, and they gave me many things. I got music and dance lessons. I learned 4 different instruments. I got to travel. I had normal toys like other kids. I always had a bicycle and the freedom to go anywhere I wanted unsupervised from the age of 5 onward. I got a car before I had a license to drive. I was totally well-off and yet still unpopular.
So I really don't think telling your kid they have to go get a job if they want to go out to the movies is going to hurt their popularity. And if I'm wrong, so what? Look at me, the most unpopular girl in school (after the one with the dandruff and back brace.) Somehow I'm still here and actually found people who love me and think I'm beautiful (they must be blind) and I've actually achieved a level of coolness and popularity in adult life that I never could have attained in childhood. I actually can go few places locally without people knowing who I am, which is disconcerting but a totally other story.
@sshawnn: I really appreciate you sharing about your children and for your honesty. It was good to hear from someone who strives for ERE with older children in this consumerist society.
I do have a thought....what if your girls were to earn their own money (i.e chores, babysitting, gardening, lawn work, extra-credit learning projects that you assign, etc.) for all of the things they want? You could even make it a game in which they get to play grown-up with their own check book, bank account, debit card, excel spreadsheet, etc.
They would be the envy of their friends as they explain how they already work and get to spend and manage their money just like grown-ups do! (I had a friend like this growing-up) Of course they will see Dad and/or Mom saving at least 50% of their earnings so they will want to do this too.
Maybe incorporate a game like Cashflow 101 http://www.richdad.com/store/productdetail.aspx?id=1 if they are old enough. Let them watch Suze Orman, who is NOT ERE, but she is dramatic, entertaining, and focuses on savings with her "Can I afford it" segment. It will teach your children to think twice about the affordability of things.
MOST importantly, if you believe in God, pray for guidance with your children.
I do have a thought....what if your girls were to earn their own money (i.e chores, babysitting, gardening, lawn work, extra-credit learning projects that you assign, etc.) for all of the things they want? You could even make it a game in which they get to play grown-up with their own check book, bank account, debit card, excel spreadsheet, etc.
They would be the envy of their friends as they explain how they already work and get to spend and manage their money just like grown-ups do! (I had a friend like this growing-up) Of course they will see Dad and/or Mom saving at least 50% of their earnings so they will want to do this too.
Maybe incorporate a game like Cashflow 101 http://www.richdad.com/store/productdetail.aspx?id=1 if they are old enough. Let them watch Suze Orman, who is NOT ERE, but she is dramatic, entertaining, and focuses on savings with her "Can I afford it" segment. It will teach your children to think twice about the affordability of things.
MOST importantly, if you believe in God, pray for guidance with your children.
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jacob
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You might want to read this ...
Why nerds are unpopular.
I'm probably the last person to ask when it comes til "fitting into mainstream" culture. It also depends hugely on the kid, that is, whether the kid would want to fit into mainstream. It just may be that the kid has other interests than what to wear this month, maintaining a huge database of gossip, and figuring out which misdemeanors are cool. I know I did.
Why nerds are unpopular.
I'm probably the last person to ask when it comes til "fitting into mainstream" culture. It also depends hugely on the kid, that is, whether the kid would want to fit into mainstream. It just may be that the kid has other interests than what to wear this month, maintaining a huge database of gossip, and figuring out which misdemeanors are cool. I know I did.
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jacob
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A good strategy to solve all this is passing. This goes for adults too. For formal occasions I maintain a few suits. I dress up for the occasion. Some people get [far too] hung up on the RV, but that's just me having fun. I have lived in houses and apartments for most of my adult life, albeit small ones that weren't located in high-rent areas... the one that was was REALLY small. There's really no way the public will know if you don't have 15 different kitchen appliances or that you watched the latest Batman movie from netflix on a 37" projector TV you got for free on freecycle and fixed with a $100 part compared to buying it for $29.95 at BB and watching it on a $800 plasma TV---if TV is you thing.
Unless you make a point of telling them.
I do realize that once that the kids hid 15 at which point they'll be able to blow $100 easily on a weekend, it's also acceptable that they have their own jobs and parents are no longer expected to pay for it. Then the kid can decide what to spend their money on. I spent all my money on computer equipment.
The worst period in terms of the prison inmate/Lord of the Flies scenario is the 11--14 year old period where children are old enough to be vicious but not old enough to be strong and mature. If you're ERE, that would be the ideal period to take your kids out of school and go on that world-trip with them.
Unless you make a point of telling them.
I do realize that once that the kids hid 15 at which point they'll be able to blow $100 easily on a weekend, it's also acceptable that they have their own jobs and parents are no longer expected to pay for it. Then the kid can decide what to spend their money on. I spent all my money on computer equipment.
The worst period in terms of the prison inmate/Lord of the Flies scenario is the 11--14 year old period where children are old enough to be vicious but not old enough to be strong and mature. If you're ERE, that would be the ideal period to take your kids out of school and go on that world-trip with them.
@jacob,
Good to see your writing's back in form again. I've read Paul Graham's piece but wasn't aware of this concept called "passing". You raise some interesting pointers. I've never fitted mainstream culture myself (but I keep myself abreast of it, on and off, just to make passing comments and deflect the gossipy enquiries elsewhere). It's true what you say about the TV example. Only when you point out the difference between your life and the others' lives, do others get all high-strung and start getting pissy and uber-critical about your lifestyle choices.
@shawn,
Thanks for your feedback. Sorry if I sounded presumptuous. I understand you fully. All the others who wrote after your post, have rightly alluded to the questions you've raised. They've also agreed that no one is immune to the issues surrounding peer pressure, etc.
I faced all those same issues while growing up... pocket money (not sure if they nicked it while father was taking a bath), video games (acquaintances/relatives from abroad), lavish birthday parties, fathers dropping children to school by car/scooter while I walked, I can go on....
What was important was that we noticed our elders' detached, dispassioned support for some of our wants (immature tantrums?) while at the same time their detachment to all those frivolity. I emphasise on "some of our".
Small examples:
---------------------
1. We had no domestic help and I had a stay-at-home mother despite having an accounting degree. She would take us for a cassatta treat or a masala dosai treat occasionally, pointing out it was because we saved the maid's expense. She would then highlight it would help her a lot if we helped share some of the work. We volunteered the next month w/o prompting, because after all, we all enjoyed the spoils! So, when the neighbour made snide remarks if we couldn't afford a maid, we would retort that "we do the work ourselves and use the maid's salary for *grand* treats!" That would shut them up...
2. My mother would stop watching TV herself when it was three months to go before our exams! No song and dance was made about her "sacrifice". But we children did take notice. It sent a clear message. "I can do this much longer because I'm slightly older. You can do it too". And our grades never suffered throughout our schooling (I was the Indian equivalent of summa cum laude throughout). Go figure why! Now, those early imprints made pulling the plug on TV a breeze for us! 3+ years and not even missing it. If our children want TV, yes we would give them, but I will probably follow my mother's example. Children would soon realise that TV is not what it's all built up to be!
I hope you get the idea? Living the talk does make an impact, but only over a period of time. For instance, the demands started to reduce gradually, from our own end. Soon when other children in school asked when our birthday party was, we would simply say, "We are not in the habit of celebrating with parties" and end further speculation. Soon other kids realised bragging about how many soft drinks and samosas they had for their party is not going to have any effect on us.
Soon my brother and I were exactly as Jacob puts it here. And as he puts it, the Lord of the Flies phase is real and sometimes carries over into 16-17! It stopped bothering me, for I realised there were bigger things to life than gaining acceptance with what I considered silly fools!. And we've continued to be that way.
I like to reassure you that your leading by example will have an impact on the children, regardless of the age of the children. It may feel there's no light at the end of the tunnel, but from my own experience I can vouch, there's a point of inflexion towards the positive.
I second @mrsrich: "if you believe in God, pray for guidance with your children" or the Universe, if you're like Paulo Coelho.
Good to see your writing's back in form again. I've read Paul Graham's piece but wasn't aware of this concept called "passing". You raise some interesting pointers. I've never fitted mainstream culture myself (but I keep myself abreast of it, on and off, just to make passing comments and deflect the gossipy enquiries elsewhere). It's true what you say about the TV example. Only when you point out the difference between your life and the others' lives, do others get all high-strung and start getting pissy and uber-critical about your lifestyle choices.
@shawn,
Thanks for your feedback. Sorry if I sounded presumptuous. I understand you fully. All the others who wrote after your post, have rightly alluded to the questions you've raised. They've also agreed that no one is immune to the issues surrounding peer pressure, etc.
I faced all those same issues while growing up... pocket money (not sure if they nicked it while father was taking a bath), video games (acquaintances/relatives from abroad), lavish birthday parties, fathers dropping children to school by car/scooter while I walked, I can go on....
What was important was that we noticed our elders' detached, dispassioned support for some of our wants (immature tantrums?) while at the same time their detachment to all those frivolity. I emphasise on "some of our"
.Small examples:
---------------------
1. We had no domestic help and I had a stay-at-home mother despite having an accounting degree. She would take us for a cassatta treat or a masala dosai treat occasionally, pointing out it was because we saved the maid's expense. She would then highlight it would help her a lot if we helped share some of the work. We volunteered the next month w/o prompting, because after all, we all enjoyed the spoils! So, when the neighbour made snide remarks if we couldn't afford a maid, we would retort that "we do the work ourselves and use the maid's salary for *grand* treats!" That would shut them up...
2. My mother would stop watching TV herself when it was three months to go before our exams! No song and dance was made about her "sacrifice". But we children did take notice. It sent a clear message. "I can do this much longer because I'm slightly older. You can do it too". And our grades never suffered throughout our schooling (I was the Indian equivalent of summa cum laude throughout). Go figure why! Now, those early imprints made pulling the plug on TV a breeze for us! 3+ years and not even missing it. If our children want TV, yes we would give them, but I will probably follow my mother's example. Children would soon realise that TV is not what it's all built up to be!
I hope you get the idea? Living the talk does make an impact, but only over a period of time. For instance, the demands started to reduce gradually, from our own end. Soon when other children in school asked when our birthday party was, we would simply say, "We are not in the habit of celebrating with parties" and end further speculation. Soon other kids realised bragging about how many soft drinks and samosas they had for their party is not going to have any effect on us.
Soon my brother and I were exactly as Jacob puts it here. And as he puts it, the Lord of the Flies phase is real and sometimes carries over into 16-17! It stopped bothering me, for I realised there were bigger things to life than gaining acceptance with what I considered silly fools!. And we've continued to be that way.
I like to reassure you that your leading by example will have an impact on the children, regardless of the age of the children. It may feel there's no light at the end of the tunnel, but from my own experience I can vouch, there's a point of inflexion towards the positive.
I second @mrsrich: "if you believe in God, pray for guidance with your children" or the Universe, if you're like Paulo Coelho
.What a great discussion!
I appreciate every one of your opinions. I think, in the end, I'm balancing fear of change (probably the majority factor) with fear of not giving my children the best possible chance at a good life (as they eventually define it).
I think, in the end, this is not a binary choice but a spectrum of lifestyles. I certainly don't spoil my kids, in fact I spent only about 35% of my income even before I had ever heard of ERE. We have a TV, but we don't turn it on - I guess that's me passing.
@Sven - I really liked your airport analogy. I think there's one difference, in that we are not only a safe place to take off and land with some ground support for steering them clear of danger, we're also a fellow airplane that they will tend to emulate. In that sense, ERE makes even more sense.
My real challenge with taking the ERE plunge is that I don't want to do anything that paints my kids in a corner. While ERE may be right for me (as opposed to a salary man path which my parents set for me) I just want to make sure that I let them make their own choice - my nightmare scenario would be having adult children that hate me because I somehow limited what they could accomplish in life. Based on this conversation and some serious introspection, I'm convinced that this is a hollow concern if I do this right.
I appreciate every one of your opinions. I think, in the end, I'm balancing fear of change (probably the majority factor) with fear of not giving my children the best possible chance at a good life (as they eventually define it).
I think, in the end, this is not a binary choice but a spectrum of lifestyles. I certainly don't spoil my kids, in fact I spent only about 35% of my income even before I had ever heard of ERE. We have a TV, but we don't turn it on - I guess that's me passing.
@Sven - I really liked your airport analogy. I think there's one difference, in that we are not only a safe place to take off and land with some ground support for steering them clear of danger, we're also a fellow airplane that they will tend to emulate. In that sense, ERE makes even more sense.
My real challenge with taking the ERE plunge is that I don't want to do anything that paints my kids in a corner. While ERE may be right for me (as opposed to a salary man path which my parents set for me) I just want to make sure that I let them make their own choice - my nightmare scenario would be having adult children that hate me because I somehow limited what they could accomplish in life. Based on this conversation and some serious introspection, I'm convinced that this is a hollow concern if I do this right.
@Piper: Yes, telling them to get a job is fine, but unfortunately state labor laws often have something to say about the age at which one can start to do such a thing
@sshawnn: Since I'm an adult now [in society's eyes], what I am about to say may sound gauche, but oh well. When I was in kindergarten, my mom had the bright idea of starting me on piano lessons. I fussed and moaned about it like I had never done about anything else. It was enough of a rebellion to turn her off of the idea. Now, as a 23 year-old, do I wish she had ignored my rebellion and signed me up for piano in kindergarten? Absolutely. While I may never have gained a full appreciation for the piano, it would certainly have been a gateway to other instruments and the wider world of music. My point is that children don't always know what they want or what is best for them. They may even rebel against something that in the future they will come to appreciate more fully than their parents had ever hoped. Their immediate reactions to 'deprivation' would not be my greatest worry when considering their options as based on my choice to live ERE*.
*I probably will not be one to go fully ERE, but that's ok. The ideals of ERE still ring true for me even if I do not strictly adhere to the dogma
@sshawnn: Since I'm an adult now [in society's eyes], what I am about to say may sound gauche, but oh well. When I was in kindergarten, my mom had the bright idea of starting me on piano lessons. I fussed and moaned about it like I had never done about anything else. It was enough of a rebellion to turn her off of the idea. Now, as a 23 year-old, do I wish she had ignored my rebellion and signed me up for piano in kindergarten? Absolutely. While I may never have gained a full appreciation for the piano, it would certainly have been a gateway to other instruments and the wider world of music. My point is that children don't always know what they want or what is best for them. They may even rebel against something that in the future they will come to appreciate more fully than their parents had ever hoped. Their immediate reactions to 'deprivation' would not be my greatest worry when considering their options as based on my choice to live ERE*.
*I probably will not be one to go fully ERE, but that's ok. The ideals of ERE still ring true for me even if I do not strictly adhere to the dogma
@ tjt: I knew the analogy was not 100% fitting, but hey it came close! Well.. i think the ERE lifestyle gives parents much more time/opportunity to be that fellow airplane or at least check the radar. Working 60 hours a week for sure brings more material stuff in the house and indeed might help them in the "my daddy/mother is doing this kind of job" discussion, but.. this won't help them that much in the end (besides how the keeping up with the Joneses lifestyle works.. but this they will learn anyway).. i think what they miss is much more important: quality time with their parents and getting skills that they wouldn't get on the school (f.e. how to fix their stuff themselves, how to get their finances in good order, how to raise children , the real life outside of the school walls, ..).
The reason why i wrote it like using an analogy is because it is hard to tell a caring parent (that you obviously are) that i think it is really hard to paint a child in the corner/have waterproof influence on how your child(ren) will end up like. Sorry for that! :-s But the goods news: Even if it ends up like that, the child (or grown up that the child became) is usually resilient/creative enough to somehow get out of there (even when that means waiting until the paint is dry - like leaving the parents house -). Children will get in touch with other lifestyles whatever you do (except when you shield them off completely from the world, but with tv, internet, phones, people,.. around that it will become really hard, if not impossible). It is in their "blood" or it is not.. Just like you decided that the salary man lifestyle is not yours, they could decide ERE is theirs or not. As long as they are happy (and you are ok with their choice), they shouldn't hate you. In the end they will know the skills will come handy anyway. You teached them to tighten the family budget, they might use it to tighten the budget assigned to the project/people they manage on their way to ultimate corporate success and get a fat bonus for doing so!
But i am open minded, so we can do some "bad" mind game: try to think of every way you could paint a child in the corner from which it could never escape without heavy costs (being financial or mental; besides inherit a whole pile of debts from their parents who tried to keep up with the Joneses, as ERE shouldn't result in such a situation). If you find something like that, then we can try to solve it.. Or otherwise, just make sure that such a situation doesn't occur. I am sure there would be still plenty of opportunities to have an ERE related lifestyle.
Well.. i think the ERE lifestyle gives parents much more time/opportunity to be that fellow airplane or at least check the radar. Working 60 hours a week for sure brings more material stuff in the house and indeed might help them in the "my daddy/mother is doing this kind of job" discussion, but.. this won't help them that much in the end (besides how the keeping up with the Joneses lifestyle works.. but this they will learn anyway).. i think what they miss is much more important: quality time with their parents and getting skills that they wouldn't get on the school (f.e. how to fix their stuff themselves, how to get their finances in good order, how to raise children , the real life outside of the school walls, ..).The reason why i wrote it like using an analogy is because it is hard to tell a caring parent (that you obviously are) that i think it is really hard to paint a child in the corner/have waterproof influence on how your child(ren) will end up like. Sorry for that! :-s But the goods news: Even if it ends up like that, the child (or grown up that the child became) is usually resilient/creative enough to somehow get out of there (even when that means waiting until the paint is dry - like leaving the parents house -
). Children will get in touch with other lifestyles whatever you do (except when you shield them off completely from the world, but with tv, internet, phones, people,.. around that it will become really hard, if not impossible). It is in their "blood" or it is not.. Just like you decided that the salary man lifestyle is not yours, they could decide ERE is theirs or not. As long as they are happy (and you are ok with their choice), they shouldn't hate you. In the end they will know the skills will come handy anyway. You teached them to tighten the family budget, they might use it to tighten the budget assigned to the project/people they manage on their way to ultimate corporate success and get a fat bonus for doing so! But i am open minded, so we can do some "bad" mind game: try to think of every way you could paint a child in the corner from which it could never escape without heavy costs (being financial or mental; besides inherit a whole pile of debts from their parents who tried to keep up with the Joneses, as ERE shouldn't result in such a situation). If you find something like that, then we can try to solve it.. Or otherwise, just make sure that such a situation doesn't occur. I am sure there would be still plenty of opportunities to have an ERE related lifestyle.