Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

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Loner
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Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Loner »

I just read Christopher Browning’s Ordinary Men. It tells the story of how a group of relatively ordinary men became killing machines in Nazi Germany because of obedience, peer pressure, and ambition.
At Jozefow a mere dozen men out of nearly 500 had responded instinctively to Major Trapp's offer to step forward and excuse themselves from the impending mass murder. Why was the number of men who from the beginning declared themselves unwilling to shoot so small?
...
As important as the lack of time for reflection was the pressure for conformity—the basic identification of men in uniform with their comrades and the strong urge not to separate themselves from the group by stepping out. The battalion had only recently been brought up to full strength, and many of the men did not yet know each other well; the bonds of military comradeship were not yet fully developed. Nonetheless, the act of stepping out that morning in Jozefow meant leaving one's comrades and admitting that one was "too weak" or "cowardly." Who would have "dared," one policeman declared emphatically, to "lose face" before the assembled troops. "If the question is posed to me why I shot with the others in the first place," said another who subsequently asked to be excused after several rounds of killing, "I must answer that no one wants to be thought a coward." It was one thing to refuse at the beginning, he added, and quite another to try to shoot but not be able to continue. Another policeman—more aware of what truly required courage—said quite simply, "I was cowardly."
...
In addition to the easy rationalization that not taking part in the shooting was not going to alter the fate of the Jews in any case, the policemen developed other justifications for their behavior. Perhaps the most astonishing rationalization of all was that of a thirty-five-year-old metalworker from Bremerhaven:
...
I made the effort, and it was possible for me, to shoot only children. It so happened that the mothers led the children by the hand. My neighbor then shot the mother and I shot the child that belonged to her, because I reasoned with myself that after all without its mother the child could not live any longer. It was supposed to be, so to speak, soothing to my conscience to release children unable to live without their mothers.


The question in my title, “Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?”, came to me when I read the following lines.
The two men who explained their refusal to take part in the greatest detail both emphasized the fact that they were freer to act as they did because they had no careerist ambitions. One policeman accepted the possible disadvantages of his course of action "because I was not a career policeman and also did not want to become one, but rather an independent skilled craftsman, and I had my business back home. . . . thus it was of no consequence that my police career would not prosper."
...
Lieutenant Buchmann had cited an ethical stance for his refusal; as a reserve officer and Hamburg businessman, he could not shoot defenseless women and children. But he too stressed the importance of economic independence when explaining why his situation was not analogous to that of his fellow officers. "I was somewhat older then and moreover a reserve officer, so it was not particularly important to me to be promoted or otherwise to advance, because I had my prosperous business back home. The company chiefs ... on the other hand were young men and career policemen who wanted to become something."
...
Self-selection on the basis of personality traits, in short, offers little to explain the behavior of the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101. If special selection played little role and self-selection seemingly none, what about self-interest and careerism? Those who admitted being among the shooters did not justify their behavior on the basis of career considerations. In contrast, however, the issue of careerism was most clearly articulated by several of those who did not shoot. Lieutenant Buchmann and Gustav Michaelson, in explaining their exceptional behavior, noted that unlike their fellow officers or comrades, they had well-established civilian careers to return to and did not need to consider possible negative repercussions on a future career in the police. Buchanann was clearly reluctant to have the prosecution use his behavior against the defendants and thus may have emphasized the career factor as constituting less of a moral indictment of men who acted differently. But Michaelson's testimony was not influenced by any such calculations or reticence. In addition to the testimony of those who felt free of career considerations, there is the behavior of those who clearly did not. Captain Hoffmann is the classic example of a man driven by careerism. Crippled by stomach cramps—psychosomatically induced, at least in part, if not entirely, by the murderous actions of the battalion—he tenaciously tried to hide his illness from his superiors rather than use it to escape his situation. He risked his men's open suspicion of cowardice in a vain attempt to keep his company command. And when he was finally relieved, he bitterly contested that career-threatening development as well. Given the number of men from Reserve Police Battalion 101 who remained in the police after the war, career ambitions must have played an important role for many others as well.


The following part also reminded me of the topics touched in Schmidt's Disciplined Minds, of how businesses often push their employees to put their personal morality aside to do things they never would do otherwise. Having our own interests align perfectly with those of an employer is never easy.
Many scholars of the Holocaust, especially Raul Hilberg, have emphasized the bureaucratic and administrative aspects of the destruction process. 5 This approach emphasizes the degree to which modern bureaucratic life fosters a functional and physical distancing in the same way that war and negative racial stereotyping promote a psychological distancing between perpetrator and victim. Indeed, many of the perpetrators of the Holocaust were so-called desk murderers whose role in the mass extermination was greatly facilitated by the bureaucratic nature of their participation. Their jobs frequently consisted of tiny steps in the overall killing process, and they performed them in a routine manner, never seeing the victims their actions affected. Segmented, routinized, and depersonalized, the job of the bureaucrat or specialist—whether it involved confiscating property, scheduling trains, drafting legislation, sending telegrams, or compiling lists—could be performed without confronting the reality of mass murder.


Did ERE philosphy (independence, self-reliance, etc.), FIRE or lack of ambition ever lead you to escape situations, at work, that would have violated you personal moral code?

jacob
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by jacob »

Cf. the Stanford Prison Experiment ... it could also be that an innate independent streak leads to both ERE and a tendency to recalcitrance towards morally dubious company policy.

Also see, http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-longest-line.html

daylen
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by daylen »

The black mirror episode "Men Against Fire" demonstrates this idea in an entertaining way.

Loner
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Loner »

@Jacob: Darren Brown, the british hypnotist/magician/illusionist, recently did a show called "Pushed to the Edge", in which he uses Asch-type compliance techniques, among others, to try to make a person push another one off a building. "The conclusion is shocking."

Compliance techniques are powerful. Makes me wonder if it'd be possible to convert everyone to ERE if only we had good marketing. Only thing is that trying to convince people with anything else than logic would, I guess, go against the grain of the philosophy :lol:

daylen
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by daylen »

Loner wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:12 pm
Compliance techniques are powerful. Makes me wonder if it'd be possible to convert everyone to ERE if only we had good marketing. Only thing is that trying to convince people with anything else than logic would, I guess, go against the grain of the philosophy :lol:
I would say that any art/media/comment/story that gets people to think about their sustainability is a step in the right direction. If someone doesn't want to listen to pure logic then why not wrap that logic into a present that unfolds into deeper meaning?

Jason

Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Jason »

The book that most responsible for this viewpoint is Hanna Arendt "Eichmann In Jerusalem: A report on The Banality of Evil" which heavily borrows from Hilberg. I believe he accused her of plagiarism. In it she presents Eichmann, the head of logistics, as a mere bureaucrat, doing his job, a cog in a machine. It was later discovered that Eichmann meant only to give the appearance, and it was documented that he was a raging anti-semite. Whether Arendt knew or not, is a matter of debate. Some say she was just trying to stay consistent with her previous work on the topic "The Origins of Totalitarianism."

I honestly think a mere behavioral interpretation of the event from either or both sides is reductionist and ultimately superficial. I would refer anyone interested in the topic to read "Modernity and The Holocaust" by Zigmunt Bauman which IMHO provides a deeper philosophical basis for what transpired. The prevalence of modernistic philosophy, man's belief that his purposes was to impose order on the world i.e. nature becoming natural resources making the antecedents of the Holocaust German forestry innovation as much as the previous Armenian genocide witnessed by the Kaiser.

What one has to take into consideration of the tale depicted in Ordinary Men is that these police officers were essentially bounty hunters given a specific task and not part of the essential machinery of the destruction of the European Jews. Passionate, isolated killings of Jews was against the edicts of Nazism and those committing them were subject to discipline. In essence, The Holocaust was the flip side of Henry Ford's mass production of automobiles i.e. Taylorism. Where Ford was manufacturing model T's, The Nazis were in turn, manufacturing death. It had assembly line overtones. Why? Because Jews/Gypsies were "homeless". They were everywhere but had no place. That's why they were referred to as vermin. Jews were the cancer on the X-ray photo of Europe. The Holocaust was a cleansing, to impose and restore order. It was no coincidence that the burgeoning influence of cadastral maps played a significant role in the holocaust.

Recent scholarship by Timothy Snyder in his work Bloodlands is interesting that it conflates Stalinism and Nazism into one event across Europe. Therefore the Holocaust is part of a greater movement which in essence supports Baumann's take. One thing I agree with Arendt on is that totalitarianism is a closed system, that militates against any outside heteronomous, metaphysical influence. That's why this was not an anti-semitism rooted in Judeo Christianity, but in Jewishness, which is worse, as a Jew cannot convert out of Jewishness. They were never referred to as Christ killers because there is no God. The state is God.

To ask if ERE could stop the Holocaust is to ignore the coupling of modernistic philosophy with the threat of death that the Nazi regime imposed upon its citizenry to carry out the plans of a uni-testicle madmen at the top of the food chain. Yes, we all do things out of subtle coercion. But most of the times we do not have to worry about our own extinction as a consequence of insubordination. The resulting behavior of the group after said acceptance of that reality is another story, and can at times mimic normal group think but that is merely coincidental and does not take into account the absolute terror that a society controlled by a totalitarian regime experiences.

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Seppia
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Seppia »

When I read the thread title my reaction was
"Well I respect Jacob a ton and am very confident ERE is super useful but we're getting a bit carried away here"
:D

Jokes aside, I see what Jacob says. It takes a nice amount of independent thinking and self confidence to do ERE.
Even in my case which is much closer to "normal" (DW and I are more MMM types, with slightly below average consumption and slightly above average salary) I sometimes take shit from people who know me well "you should spend more" "why a small apartment, you could easily get something more spacious" "why don't you guys have two cars" etc.
I can only imagine what those who go full-ERE must experience (especially if their environment is middle class or above)

Jason

Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Jason »

In all due respect, in the history of thread titles, this has to be the most absurd I have ever encountered in my entire life. I know the OP means no harm, but it's breathtakingly naive and lacks any semblance of historical understanding. To postulate that better personal finance would have stemmed the tide of early 20th totalitarian and fascist regimes and therefore the destruction of 6 million people (18 million people if you include the Soviet Union) if not completely laughable, would be considered highly offensive. This is moving the needle of ERE from lifestyle/personal finance to the delusive ranks of Scientology. If this was my first day on this board, and I had seen this, I would have jumped out of here quicker than you could imagine, fearful that the FBI was already mobilizing to kick my door in.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Jason

Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Jason »

You won't find an argument from me on that point (although I personally think Kevin Spacey is a bad example, I'm not going to quibble about that, I get what you are saying). And I would have made the same post whether this thread was titled "Could ERE Have Prevented The Slave Trade" or "Could ERE Have Prevented The Killing Fields of Cambodia" or "Could Have ERE Prevented Justin Beiber." My basic point is that a moral philosophy cannot insulate a civilization from catastrophic events or however pure evil decides to manifest itself at a particular point in history.

Loner
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Loner »

Sincere apologies for the title if I offended anyone, I had not realized it could be offensive. I tried changing it but could not find how to do it. I’d gladly do it if someone tells me how. Double apologies if I’m destroying value as to make people want to jump out of here.

My main point was to show how FI and lack of careerist ambitions can indeed help nudge people towards taking decisions that are aligned with their moral codes. Many people would like to have the fortitude of Diogenes, who could ask Alexander the Great to step out of his sun, unafraid of consequences. As Epictetus said, “Diogenes – he was free. [...] If you had seized any of his possessions, he would have surrendered it to you sooner than be pulled along behind it. If you had grabbed him by the leg, he would have given up the leg; if you had seized his entire body, the entire body would have been sacrificed.” Most people are not, and maybe cannot, be like that. They will do good if it’s easy, and do bad if it’s easier. Hence the last question of my post [Did ERE philosphy (independence, self-reliance, etc.), FIRE or lack of ambition ever lead you to escape situations, at work, that would have violated you personal moral code?], which was I meant to be the leading thread of the discussion. ERE is not a robust as having a strong personal philosophy as Dioneges, but it might be more realistic.

As a personal story, I write for magazines (and wrote for newspapers in the past) for a living, and I have seen the machine from the inside. It’s not pretty. The media presents itself as obstinate, independent, objective and balanced, but the reality if far from that. Chomsky wrote about it. Being asked subtly to talk about ACME Corp’s (a company owned by the newspaper’s parent company) new product, that is to write an ad in article form, happens often. Being punished by being given lesser jobs because you talked negatively about a big advertiser also happens. I know about that first hand. You know the dagger is always balancing above your head. It’s the same with the physicist who does research about The Interaction of Electromagnetic Radiation with Solid Materials, an overall benign research topic, you'd think, until you realise that such research is highly important for aerospace communications surveillance and detection systems.

I do not have careerist ambition, so I never felt compelled to do what I was told if I thought it was unethical. I always steered clear of all the sketchy situations that showed up, even if it caused, at times, a lot of conflict and stress. On the other hand, it’s easy to say because I have never been in a situation where I was risking starving from lack of work, or worse. As much as I think highly of myself, I realize that there might be, deep below, some weaknesses hidden for which ERE might might provide a firewall.

Jordan Peterson has a good point here (he discusses this in many other videos): https://youtu.be/wohPMi5xW9E?t=20

Here’s a transcript:
“One of the things I tried to learn when I was taking apart what happened in Auschwitz [was to put myself] in the position of an Auschwitz camp guard. You can call up parts of yourself that would be capable of taking someone who just got off a transport train and having them carry a hundred-pound sack of wet salt from one side of the camp compound to the other and back. You can conjure that part of yourself up if you want and that'll teach you something about what you're like.

People don't do it because it's too frightening. But I know perfectly well that I can do that sort of thing. And so once I learned that I can do that sort of thing, and maybe even that I can even enjoy it, I’m going to see if I can figure out how to live so that if that opportunity was presented to me, I wouldn’t take it.

And I think that’s the lesson that people need to take from the 20th century. That’s what human beings did. Okay, well, we’re all human. So how is it that we should live so that we don’t do that again?”

Jason

Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Jason »

Well, since you're a journalist, I'll just say "good article, bad headline."

I think the bottom line is that if you stick a person on a transport train in order to get a raise, you are unambiguously a raging, amoral douchebag. If you do it because you have been psychologically groomed via a premeditated and meticulously designed killing apparatus regulated by state enforced terror, maybe there's some mitigating circumstances that can be discussed. That's why I think the Holocaust is not an ideal prism to look through when discussing careerism, which is a legitimate concern. I don't think anyone can legitimately retrospectively place themselves in either position, Jew or Nazi, as there was a preceding period of psychological and then geographical segregation. It took place over time, in stages. I also think Aushwitz and the concentration camps are erroneously centralized in Holocaust discussions. Most executions were committed beforehand in Poland via mobile gas vans. Most Holocaust historians locate the most depraved conditions not in the camps but in the ghettos, specifically Warsaw. The concentration camps were the tail end of the event, and are best known because that is the point of emancipation, and as Hannah Arendt pointed out, a unprecedented confrontation with a type human existence that was somewhere between death and life.

Loner
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Loner »

Point taken Jason. Thanks for your long comments. I will come back to your references when I'll read more about this topic.

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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by jacob »

Jason wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:22 pm
I don't think anyone can legitimately retrospectively place themselves in either position, Jew or Nazi, as there was a preceding period of psychological and then geographical segregation. It took place over time, in stages.
Like a slowly boiling frog (metaphorically speaking, real frogs, apparently, are smarter than that)... Shit gets normalized.

I think running the thought experiment is still worthwhile.

I'm more interested in the problem from the persecutee side than the persecutor side. For example, in another thread, there was the sentiment that "I would just leave when I saw ... ". But such plans are subject to the boiling frog effect. In 1931, all Germans who wanted to leave Germany was hit with a 25% exit-tax. (Note US tax law already has something similar in place---if you emigrate (permanently), you will be paying capital gains on everything as if it was sold on the day you left ... that'll easily put FI money in the 25%+ tax bracket.) This was then dialed up for Jews in particular as the Nazis tried to force them out of all capital ownership. Later, they were required to register all property worth more than X amount. Ultimately, IIRC, they weren't allowed to take much if anything.

Now, my question is, if you had FU-money but the government had some claws in it already ... would you be more likely or less likely to leave the country?

I think less, because loss-aversion would make one more likely to "hope for the better" so that situation makes FU money rather ironic compared with someone who wasn't FI and thus had less to lose.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Jason

Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Jason »

The issue of why there was not more emigration at this time is a highly complex and sensitive issue where religious orientation is also a factor. I don't think money was the prevailing issue. It was a different time, family, homeland all played a much more significant role in one's decision making process. And obviously at some point it's not about leaving but escaping. The fact that Hitler was initially perceived as a innocuous blowhard/buffoon who would never win is kind of reminiscent of certain recent events. I don't think one can underestimate the power of "it can't happen here we live in the most high developed, sophisticated country in the world" or the human mind's proclivity towards denial Finding the trigger point for a past event, I'm personally not comfortable with. It's just too much of a hindsight is 20/20 and takes out the embedded nature of human beings within history.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Jason

Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Jason »

Based on your line of thinking re: trigger points, and something that the US has struggled with recently: I would point to the fact that Hannah Arendt spends a great deal of time in "The Origins of Totalitarianism" on government enforced or mob regulated demonstrations of patriotism. When public demonstrations of patriotism lose nuance and the ability to be used as opportunities to protest, but become nothing more than coercive, monolithic expression of loyalty to an undefined yet irrefragable patriotic ideal (love it or leave it) imposed either from the top down or from the middle outward, it might be a sign to pack your bags.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Jason

Re: Could ERE have prevented the Holocaust?

Post by Jason »

I understand that she is currently in vogue because of our current political climate, but I just find her to be one of the greatest minds of the 20th century. And considering her life trajectory, one of these "how in the world did she do all that." I just finished "Life of The Mind" which is considered to be her best work and I think it would be of interest to many people here who tend to enjoy that type of existence.

LOL @ No man, its good to have you around. I was someone who was lucky never to have face conscription and while watching the Viet Nam War documentary by Ken Burns, I had to ask myself, what would I have done, because it goes without saying that I would have been shot by my own unit for being a whiny bitch before the Viet Cong had a chance. They did have a segment of those who fled, specifically one in who in the heat of the moment renounced his citizenship which means he can't come back. And these were people who loved their country.

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