How much do you value location independence?

[Did]

Any nomads out there who earn much less at home, but elect to do so because of the location independence/tower of terror avoidance it provides?

The often maligned Tim Ferriss talks about a freedom multiplier, and gives an example of how 50k a year might be worth more than 500k year depending on how you earn it, where you earn it, who you are with and so on. It really resonates with me.

Having said that I might have an opportunity for a gig that pays two and a bit times my potential home income in the next 12 months, but it's in an office in another city. I am really not thrilled by the idea of it - it's what I 'retired' from. But the money, the money......

Any other nomad types been through this thinking?

[BRUTE]

in brute's experience, the low cost of living areas are also low-income areas, or areas from which it's hard to work remotely. might not always be true, but it's mostly been true for brute. brute's known many a "digital nomad" type, and he knows exactly 3 that have ever made remotely what would be considered "a living" where they were from.

[7Wannabe5]

Some book I read recently* made the point that the word "freedom" is etymologically associated with words such as "kingdom" and "serfdom", with the suffix "dom" to be understood as "domain." So, during the hours of the day that you are acting as an employee of Acme Screw Inc. typing away in a cubicle, you are residing in a corporate-dom, because in addition to the laws of the state, you are subject to the rules of the corporation. This is why I think the argument sometimes offered that self-employment is as onerous as paid-employment-by-other because you are subject to the whims of your customers is patently false. You can choose to refuse to deal with particularly difficult customers, you can only protest the behavior of a particularly difficult employer or boss. Within the scope of your own business, you are the king, although obviously still subject to laws of the greater realm you inhabit, and the laws of nature tooth and claw, and/or whatever God you have faith in.

"Liberty", otoh, is something that can be granted, inherited or earned within the context of a domain. So, a corporation might choose to grant a valued employee the liberty to work from home. Leisure can be defined as the liberty from the necessity for gainful employment. I use the term "gainful" rather than "paid" because even somebody like our forum-mate, the animal, would at least have to go out and chop some wood for his stove and shoot a moose before he could be at leisure from the pressure of the Domain of Nature or Natural Consequences. However, once at his leisure, he could still choose to engage in creative work, not inherently or directly gainful, such as composing a charming operetta.

Recent research at the intersection of biology, neuroscience, and linguistics indicates that human language is thoroughly "embodied." IOW, everything we say or attempt to communicate, however abstract, is always at core related to our physical being, or a projection of our own physical being on to some other person or object. So, the fact that you feel compelled to restrict your bodily movements to the space within your cubicle for X hours/day while residing in the Corporate-dom of Acme Screw, will likely cause you to experience some of the same negative sensations you might have in a more natural context in which, for instance, your leg was pinned under a log.

Thus, my opinion would be that earning the leisure to engage in creative work would fall subordinate to the challenge of gainful self-employment. However, this is often a matter of perspective on contract. For instance, some full-time salaried employees are always scanning the horizon for other employment opportunities. IOW, they are constantly exercising the perspective that they are in mutual free-will contract; still dependent on paid employment in face or dominion of natural consequences, but independent of any particular Dom; like a knight-mercenary or an uncollared submissive.

I hope I exhibited greater than usual clarity in this post. I am very interested in trying to determine how the amount of money invested in a stock market account relates to the amount of acreage an adult male homo sapiens would need to establish domain over in order to survive as hunter/forager. Of course, homo sapiens are social pack animals, believed to have roamed in groups of 15 to 50 prior to decline into trap set by grains, so it is most common to find men at their leisure clustered together on street corners smoking tobacco while intermittently harassing busy females, or in booths at diners gossiping about news while drinking coffee, and intermittently harassing busy females. This behavior is uniform across time and cultures.

[Did]

@brute Somewhat surprised by that. I thought it was just me who had a little trouble making a crust online.

@7W Thanks for the clarity. Looks like you are strongly in favour of avoiding the towers of terror. Corner smokers and diners aren't too common in my experience. Sounds like a movie. Appreciate that fellas like hanging out and chinwagging while ogling attractive women though. Why not.

[7Wannabe5]

Little known fact is that unemployed men have higher levels of testosterone on average than employed men. Among employed men actors and politicians have relatively high testosterone levels and farmers and members of the clergy have relatively low testosterone levels. Testosterone is a mood brightening biochemical, so generally men are happier when not in direct contact with those to whom they must submit.

[EdithKeeler]

I am a nomad-type who’s currently chained down against her will (ok.... just family commitments. And I’m willing. Mostly). I can say that my bank account has benefited greatly, however, by earning a very nice paycheck in a low COL area. When I moved from a higher COL area to this low one (one of the lowest in the country in fact), I kept my higher salary. Unintentional geographical arbitrage I guess. I was recently contacted by a recruiter for a position in my town for something with more responsibility but about 35k a year less. I am often contacted about positions where I can work at home full time for insurance companies—there’s such a dearth of people with experience right now that carriers are getting pretty creative. That said, I think that if I were already living in Seattle or NYC or Boston, I’d still think twice about leaving for Tennessee just to save money.

[IlliniDave]

I value it a lot. Relative to most here I could be said to like my job, and a big part of my push towards FI is simply so that I am free to change locations. However, I'm far from a nomad and do not suffer from wanderlust. I just want to put down my roots in a different place from this one where following a career has most recently deposited me. I also value an efficient return when trading my time for dollars, which has led me to compromise where location is concerned.

[unemployable]

I guess if I had never left Chicago I'd be up around $200k/year in salary by now and well into seven figures, likely with a 2 or 3 handle, in net worth. But that's a false premise. I would have left at some point anyway, and the faster my assets would have risen the faster it would have happened.

At this point in life, choosing where I want to live is akin to what Vince Lombardi said about winning. It's not just everything; it's the only thing.

[James_0011]

I’d love to be location independent, I haven’t been able to find a well paid online gig though. Not sure why offices even exist anymore when almost all white collar work is done on computers.

The main ways I’ve noticed people working remotely is-

Programming
Digital marketing
Staring an e commerce business

I actually interviewed for a remote job as a junior product manager this summer, but wasn’t hired.

My feeling is that remote work opportunities will increase as remote working technologies improve (AR offices for example).

[BRUTE]

brute thinks that even in remote-easy industries where all humans could technically work over the internet, there are a lot of trust and control issues. humans simply enjoy having other humans warm seats in offices, and seeing human faces, even if that is expensive and inefficient and prohibits remote humans to do the same job.

remote work seems to be 98% about low-balling remote workers, and 2% about keeping high-quality workers that would simply leave if not given the remote option. there seems to be almost nothing in between.

[Did]

remote work seems to be 98% about low-balling remote workers, and 2% about keeping high-quality workers that would simply leave if not given the remote option. there seems to be almost nothing in between.

Yeah I have seen that. My new at home gig is probably looking to pay less than 1/10th of my income before quitting. Same guy but this is the best gig I can seem to get and it has taken years of looking. I'm not sure I can do it to be honest - be someone's bitch. Not sure if the ego can handle it.

[TopHatFox]

Working remotely doesn't appeal to me at all. Surfing and sleeping under the stars is fun on the go. Finding a decent wi-fi connection in Thailand to talk to your business partner is not. I say learn how to create a sustainable Packable Life, save up the assets, and then travel long-term.

A Packable Lifestyle is one that you can easily fold up, put in a small Uhaul, and live anywhere in the country. As to where to move to, criteria high on my list include access to nature, non-sprawled environment, access to fit and centrist/left people, mild/sunny climate, and low to no relevant taxes to me. Work includes anything that pays 30-40K in "healer" positions like a counselor, masseuse, outdoor therapist, or programs coordinator.

Even working from home kind of sucks. It's so easy to get distracted. Not only that, but it's hard to find motivation unless you actually like the work. You also don't get to spend time with any other human besides yourself and the computer. Humans need community to be healthy almost if not as much as food and water.

[James_0011]

@THF

Do you consider yourself friends with your coworkers? I’ve never experienced that myself as I tend to be socially conservative in office environments (meaning I don’t share too many details about my life out of fear of being an “outsider”). I share with non work related people just fine.

It seems to me that one could find a better community with a remote job as it would be easier to move around and find a group of people that you click with.

[TopHatFox]

@James - Yeah, I actually like them. They're good people, and they talk about just about anything. On finding community, turns out it's pretty hard to find, especially on a day to day basis.

[slowtraveler]

It's a very fulfilling choice if you get it right. Lower hours since hours are all spent actually working rather than waiting. I think working as someone valuable for a company then slowly negotiating more days away until you can keep managing your responsibilities from abroad is one of the better paths. Most doing online marketing make less than minimum wage in CA so it's enough but not as quick for ERE.

@THF

Why are you stressing to find wifi when unlimited phone data (and hence hotspot) is available for ~$9/month?

[James_0011]

How do you get unlimited data that cheap?

I use a company called mint and get unlimited text and calls + 2gs of data per month for $15/month

[slowtraveler]

AIS- this is only available in Thailand to my knowledge.
50 baht for a Sim. 300baht for month for unlimited 1mbps. Do not prepay more than 1 plan at a time. Only pay for the month, top up when you run out or are about to. Otherwise, you'll have 2 plans running at once and waste a couple of dollars. Aside from that, it's been great. I stream movies on my laptop, work with the data, it very rarely doesn't work. My phone is my router now.

There are other companies but not quite cheap. More like $14/month.

[BRUTE]

asian mobile plans are just unbeatable. brute has streamed >200GB/mo via phone there. 3G in some asian cities is better than cable in most of the US.

[conwy]

I currently value a combination of learning, skills-development, money-saving and ability to get work much more highly than location-independence.

If I could have location-independence on top of all that, of course, I'd take it, and in fact, I've been given just that opportunity many times over from existing clients/employers, simply because of how well I did my work (not meaning to brag here, just being honest; I've done my share of poor work in the past too, but I learned from it and got back on the horse).

I place my bets on flexibility and adaptability – going where the work is and learning to adapt and thrive in the process.

[TopHatFox]

How do you get unlimited data that cheap?

I use a company called mint and get unlimited text and calls + 2gs of data per month for $15/month

Oh wow, tell me about this Mint. I use Airvoice for unlimited calls and texts and 1 gig. For $30/mo