Spent $60 on an in-person date. Fuck that

[TopHatFox]

I'm just going to drop this righttttt here: http://jonathansoma.com/singles/#1/1/2/0

This explains why hetero women have the upper hand in the 20-35 range, and men in the 35-60+ range. Supply and demand. Also explains why women can get away with being late to a date or other symptoms of oversupply.

Which, ultimately, means you must be a hyper-competitive man in your 20-35's, and things get easier for men on the whole in the marketplace as more and more men die.

[BRUTE]

oh oh TopHatFox taking the red pill
and he was such a nice human

[wheatstate]

An alternative, cheap, cold weather date is art gallery or free museum.
You talk about the art, pick favorites, while answering the usual first date questions in a pleasant, public, sophisticated place.
If date goes well; you get coffee, beer or food after.
If the date is late, you stroll the art while you wait a few minutes.

As others said, it isn't easy on both sides.

[phil]

Someone somewhere on this forum (forgot who and where) dropped a very telling graph about about at what age men and women find the opposite sex the most attractive versus their own age. Men find women of about 20 years old the most attractive, irrespective of their own age. For women, on the other hand, it starts with (IIRC) about 23 for 18-year old women, and rises with their own age, so that a 45-year old woman prefers 45-year old men. This means that competition for your women is fiercest, and that young men have difficulty finding suitors.

Just be patient. The balance will eventually shift in your favor .

[slowtraveler]

Gotta say this but you lead in the direction of wasting the money. When you made the plans, you opened up that possibility. Dinner is a horrible first date.

+1 for walk at a public park, coffee, art gallery, or free museum. Somewhere you can talk/interact in a relaxed manner with a cheap price and easy exit. The first date is just to see if you even enjoy her company, not make any lasting impressions.

Instead of beating yourself up over this or changing your entire belief system, take it as a lesson learned. Some people burn a lot more than $60 on shitty first dates. You now know better ideas for testing basic compatibility without breaking the bank. Please don't get jaded and think all women are a certain way because this one was horribly different than what you expected.

Also, she was an hour late and you put up with it. You could have left if you planned a closer spot.

Take the lead with your woman's best interest at heart. Then she'll contribute her own ideas to your plan. Every woman is different. Some are more receptive and want you making all the plans, others will be heavier in androgynous or masculine energy in a multitude of ways. Most women will prefer you to take the lead but not all. There's a plethora of variety out there.

[jacob]

Which, ultimately, means you must be a hyper-competitive man in your 20-35's, and things get easier for men on the whole in the marketplace as more and more men die.

Survivor bias, eh?

Nah, as with all economics and physics, it boils down to supply and demand. Question is whether you want to wait for it? If not, the "trading" is found somewhere in between. Usual remarks about insolvency and irrationality applies. Have fun...

[BRUTE]

as with all economics and physics, it boils down to supply and demand

ha! who's a dismal science now?!

[TopHatFox]

lol, it gets better. The person proceeded to unsolicitedly enlighten me on the responsibility of men to be chivalrous and have "masculine energy". She even said you're welcome afterward. How sweet. THF deflects with chivalry is sexist af and I don't think I've ever heard of anything more new-age sexist bullshit than "masculine and feminine energy". Hold your own damn door and pay for your own goddamn meal. I provide in-depth conversation and have a direction in life. Even under her paradigm, that's enough "masculine energy" thank you very much.

I think I'm also going to send a "we're going dutch on this date" pre-date text from now on. Should filter out the incompatible folks.

[BRUTE]

Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches and thou shalt observe all its directions.
Thou shalt defend the Church.
Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation and without mercy.
Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
Thou shalt never lie, and shalt remain faithful to thy pledged word.
Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone.
Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.

[C40]

I don't think I've ever heard of anything more new-age sexist bullshit than "masculine and feminine energy".

Watch a handful of different types of animals have sex. (for examples of masculine energy) Those energies are as old as fucking.

[bryan]

I think I'm also going to send a "we're going dutch on this date" pre-date text from now on. Should filter out the incompatible folks.

A prospective date saying/texting that ahead of time would count as a bad (personality; not very go with the flow/chill/amicable/confident/etc.) signal in my book.

There's probably a better text you could send?

This was also part of the beauty of OkCupid.. you answer questions (not too pigeon-holing and iirc you could provide an explanation) and assign weight to each's importance. You can delve into other people's answers easily.

[7Wannabe5]

@THF:

Well, it is natural that you reacted pissed, because the ironic thing is that by telling you how to be more masculine, she was behaving in a very unfeminine manner AKA "topping from the bottom." Recommended feminine form/behavior would be much more like "making a man feel like a man by creating attractive vacuum for masculine behavior." For instance, one of my wiles is if I sense that a man is being a bit stiff/formal/repressed due to over-training when he attempts to kiss me good-night, I will relax into demi-swoon, so that he has to catch me up strong (very important, perhaps subtle, note here being that I do this because I yummy-like the likely reaction/response, NOT because I think men like that sort of behavior, although it has been my experience that very often they do) Also, I generally will not accept an offer of dinner or second date after an initial meet/greet if I am not at least 50% considering possibility of furthering the relationship. I usually make final decision by second date, always by third. The main reason why I might give a guy a couple chances is it has been my experience that some men only shine when they are on their own turf, but I don't necessarily want to be alone with a man on his own turf right away.

If you want to take the discussion out of the realm of "sexist", just drop the terms feminine/masculine and describe the energy as top/bottom, lead/follow, or assertive/receptive. It is possible to have a sexual encounter which is very balanced in assertive/receptive energy. Kind of like how it is kind of hard to tell who is in the lead or follow with many forms of dancing. However, the cultural institution of dating itself assumes a lead/follow pattern. If you don't want a lead/follow pattern, asking a person out on a date, and then texting them to inform "this will be Dutch", as Bryan noted, is not the way to do it. It's confusing if nothing else. You need to use words like "meet" or "hang out" rather than "date" in your communications right from the get-go. However, if you keep the energy egalitarian and casual, you also run the risk that you will be signaling, "Let's just be friends.", and simply delaying the inevitable of necessity to signal assertive interest if an encounter is to occur.

What C40 wrote is true, and also applies to courting behavior. IOW, within a dating context, if you are assuming the lead (which is what you are signaling if you ask a woman out rather than just making your dating profile seem very attractive and then waiting for the rare assertive female to ask you out), you will do well to signal that you are very capable/competent of f*cking the female's brains out, and you are also interested enough in the possibility to offer/perform tokens and behaviors generally associated with courtship across many species. Since humans are complex and impressionable creatures, capable of considering matters and communicating on many different levels, it is very possible for a man to strongly signal three somewhat conflicting messages such as "I respect your intelligence." and "I would seriously love to f*ck your brains out." and "I'm not looking for serious right now." over the course of dinner on a second date. Maybe think of it as an art form.

I was very rejecting of feminine/masculine energy philosophies/practices when they first came to my attention, but it has been my experience that they do work-IF what the result they proffer is what you want.

[theanimal]

For further reading on male/female energy I recommend reading The Way of the Superior Man. H/T to c40 for the recommendation elsewhere.

[wood]

lol, it gets better. The person proceeded to unsolicitedly enlighten me on the responsibility of men to be chivalrous and have "masculine energy". She even said you're welcome afterward. How sweet. THF deflects with chivalry is sexist af and I don't think I've ever heard of anything more new-age sexist bullshit than "masculine and feminine energy". Hold your own damn door and pay for your own goddamn meal. I provide in-depth conversation and have a direction in life. Even under her paradigm, that's enough "masculine energy" thank you very much.

I think I'm also going to send a "we're going dutch on this date" pre-date text from now on. Should filter out the incompatible folks.

That might filter out the compatible ones too.

It almost seems like she feels a bit sorry for you, as if you're this angry/sorry single guy who gets frustrated with women. It also seems like she would easily fall into the category of women I like to label "airheads" based on what you've written about her, so no big loss.

Masculine energy is very real. It's what many women desire in their men. Call it lead/receptive or whatever terms 7W5 suggested, but it's a thing. Some women are unaware of this and it becomes a subconcious desire. For a player, those can oftentimes be the easiest ones to court because there is more room for failure. The one you met was probably very aware, and kind enough to let you know (seeing from her side).

My impression is that you're a man with a good portion of feminine energy in you. Which is good. But you might find it challenging to court very feminine women like the one you met. I think its helpful to be aware of this stuff so you can use it to your advantage.

[TopHatFox]

@wood - I already have a partner of 6 mo. THF is usually top, and usually has been in all previous relationships~ ; )

I just think it's silly that opening doors and paying for meals equates to being top in the working world. Oo, look at me, so powerful - I slide plastic and push things open.

Finding it hard to believe a lot of you subscribe to this masculine/feminine energy stuff.

-----------------

Masuline v. Feminine energy: https://www.davidwygant.com/blog/women- ... ne-energy/

Are you a "masculine woman", maybe you should dress sexy. Are you a "feminine man", maybe you should get a flashy car. Basically, what women have been thought of to be for the past forever in western society-- compassionate, caretakers, etc. = feminine energy and what men have been thought of to be for the same -- strong, leaders, competitive = masculine energy. I'm sorry but how does not that reinforce our prejudices against men and women?

[Lemon]

@THF as you say you already have a partner. So you can really ramp up the filters here, unless you like going on multiple dates with people there is a near zero chance of clicking with. Getting a good enough partner ASAP isn't I don't think your goal.
Just make it clear you are not interested in 'traditional' dating practices in your profile/bio/whatever in a non-crazy sounding way. Don't do it after someone has shown interest and you have then set up a more traditional date which you then tell them you are expecting to go dutch on. Others have explained why that is a bad idea.

[TopHatFox]

@ Crazylemon - that sounds like a good idea. I'll just stick it on the profile. : )

[Lemon]

@THF no problem hope it helps.

On the masc/fem thing. I can see where you are coming from. To some extent I agree. We have come much further in non relationship areas of allowing women to drive, read and becomes the heads of things beyond the local knitting association/WI than it looks like we have in relationships.

But part of that is people like playing different roles and a couple where both people are hyper masculine or hyper feminine isn't gonna work as easily as one with more balance. That is easier to do with one person being more masc/fem. It is also culturally how it has been done since basically forever in western society. Not everyone is willing/able to give it up yet and complaining about it in the scenario of a date you are currently on is going to do little other than annoy the date. Maybe because you went to such a liberal college this is just a culture shock thing about how things are in most spheres of the world. If you don't like such ridged roles don't date the people who do, hence my filter advise. Changing the terms away form Masc/Fem to something else is the first step in making them less gender fixed, people like playing defined roles. Expecting egalitarian wonderfulness overnight isn't gonna happen.

But I suspect you are never doing to get a 50:50 of both men/women playing Top/bottom roles because of biology. For the same reason I don't think you are gonna end up with a large majority of the population identifying as non binary.

Disclaimer: I am a Gay man who has only (really) dated other 'Masc' men so experiences with 'feminine energy' are limited. I don't find pretty dependents attractive. Having said that my partner is more 'Fem' than me. Still gets the oh so loved 'oh you don't act gay' comments.

[Riggerjack]

Just spent $60 on a date with a woman who showed up an hour late and proceeded to say that it's okay that 6 people own the majority of wealth, because they give people jobs. We all just need to work hard enough. She then went on about her plan to make it big in real estate and business and to not be "absurdly frugal." The kicker - she studied philosophy and psych on her parents dime, her parents bought her her SUV, and she tells people that they're not doing enough because she's out there volunteering helping poor people.

So, you went on a date with someone who has opinions you don't agree with, who tried to help you align your opinions to those more common in the environment you are now occupying, and whose background and current lifestyle act as triggers for you.

Then, you came here to complain that life is hard and women are difficult. After spending half your date budget on your own Uber, you complain about the cost of her "free meal", and her volunteering to help the poor, because the only legitimate way to go through life is to reject all parental help and put her efforts into changing government efforts to deal with the poor, right?

Going off your description, I expect she would have been happy to pick up the tab to get out earlier.

Which sounds horribly judgemental (I am) and mean (not my intent).

My first, and best advice would be to take a real good look around, noticing where your opinions about politics, dating etiquette, etc, differ from those of the people around you. Then think about, and talk about, why that would be. This isn't because I think you are wrong, though I do. It is because when we find these differences, especially when we think there shouldn't be differences, we often react emotionally, and not in a good way. Resetting your internal moral compass from right and wrong to more right and less right will help with this. As we have shown here, good people can legitimately hold differing opinions without being wrong or corrupted by "the system" (yes, this is me projecting my early adulthood issues on you, ignore it if you like.)

Life is full of good people with different histories and values. Naturally, they will develop different preferences and opinions. You are no longer in the homogeneous, progressive, 18-24 yo, campus environment. Learning to accept that other people can be good, and their reasoning sound, and STILL they can disagree with you will make your life easier. The longer you are off campus, the more you will see this.

Someone above said that personal compatibility outweighs tribal affiliation. This is only true if one has affiliation outside the tribe. The reason tribal affiliation is so strong on campus and recent grads is that it is a perfect growing ground for tribalism. Young, recently separated, inexperienced adults, in a homogeneous group, looking to find and express an individual identity, with premade archetypes provided. But you are not there anymore, and the rules you lived by are no longer applicable. The sooner you internalize this, the less angry you will be.

Or maybe I'm just writing this for my own 25 year old self and doesn't apply to you at all. Either way, good luck, and it does get better, if you let it.

[Kriegsspiel]

I can see how you'd be skeptical of masculinity if you are reading that dudes website; he was so angry that a cobbler messed up the distressed look of his new boots, I could sense his weeping through my laptop screen.