The Hard Work Idol

[Scott 2]

A recurring theme I see in my media, is "hard work above all else". I'd like to consider the perspective.

Careerists talk about innovating while their competitors are sleeping. Mr money mustache goes on about biking over driving. One podcast I like spent an hour on cold training for the sake of learning to be uncomfortable.

I'm just not sure I buy into the value. I used to. I'd literally schedule myself 24/7, down to even time with my wife. I had this idea to be the best, you must be continuously moving. The required sacrifice leads to a very rigid life. I eventually questioned if being the best is important.

Now I tend to focus on understanding who I am, then pursuing activities that nurture me. I gave away my bike. I leave my alarm off and start work whenever I get up. I avoid large groups of people, public speaking, and meetings. If I want to play video games till 2 in the morning, or stretch my 90 minute workout over 3 hours to watch Netflix, I embrace it.

This has definitely removed a lot of discomfort from my life. It's also meant giving up on some ideals, like I should be the boss or I should minimize expenses. I do less and achieve less.

There are still areas in my life where some might say I work hard or sacrifice, but because the activity matches who I am, it doesn't feel that way. I also know others doing so much more in comparison, so objectively, my effort level is moderate at best.

Am I just lazy? Maybe. It's possible I'm coasting in the spoils of my prior strain and will be very disappointed in 10 years.

I've been thinking about this because my exercise progress has stalled. It's clear people doing better are more willing to be uncomfortable. The strongman I'm learning from claims it's a trainable trait, I'm just not sure I want that suffering in my life. I also wonder if there isn't an easier way, that aligns with my default mentality. Again - am I just lazy...

My career progress has also stalled, but I know I'm not willing to pay that price. Travel and leadership are not fun.

I suppose my natural segue into progress as the judge of my experience is a sister Idol.

[Farm_or]

This was a topic that I really struggle with, from my first learning of the ere concept and continues today.

Maybe it's a masculine trait? What we do defines who we are. I try hard to be aware of that and work on my "just being".

25 years of monetary reward and ego-driven boosting from working for the man is hard to change. It may be my bias still impressing on me, but it seems that every time that I meet somebody new, the ice-breaker is "what do you do?".

Old men love ​to tell stories of their glory days. Dragon slaying tales. I fear being that old man without enough to talk about. I still enjoy hard work for that reason among others.

[jacob]

Well, this was not what I expected from the title.

Ten+ years ago back when crossfit was still just one gym and a website and other "blood, sweat, and tears"-workout philosophies were coming up (Pavel for kettlebells, Sonnon clubbells, they were just one guy and a few associates) ... I recall there was general agreement that when it came to working out, 5-10% wanted to do it the hard way whereas the rest wanted the quick, easy, or comfortable way.

I don't consider myself part of the 90-95% in that regard.

As for the motivation, it's not my personal feeling nor the impression from others that we seek out to be miserable by doing things the hard way. I'm not completely convinced that the motivation is results-driven. If there was an easier way to get to the same result (take the bus instead of walking), I think some would still do it the hard way, but not because we like misery.

I believe, therefore, that it's mental. There are at least three different motivations.

One) there's the "I shall not be defeated." That's the ego-driven approach. That's where you're competing with yourself or some idea you had. Can I run a marathon? Well, can I run a double-marathon? What about 100M? I think this is trainable. It helps to have previous successes because the "skill" (or rather attitude) transfers. If you've achieved a "hard goal", you're more likely to believe you can repeat it cf. someone who never bothered. The downside here is that you might end up being frustrated with other people with lesser goals; and they might in turn end up being annoyed with you. Here it's important to remember that your goals are yours only. Perhaps even the idea of goal-setting is yours only.

Two) there's the Yoda-decision. There is no try. You either do or you don't. If you wanna do, you make the decision and you make it happen. Don't do things half-assed. This is maybe where one has a tendency to overschedule or sign up for too much. It's an easy trap to fall into. Key here is to understand if you want to be really good at something, you should be doing that thing exclusively to all else.

Third) there's the possibility that you just happen to like it. Some people simply the feel of lifting a heavy weight. Or they like the feeling of being on a bicycle. This is the best of the three to be in. The problem here is that you can't really decide that you really like something. You might be the kind of guy who's lucky enough to like reading and exercising. This will make you well-read and fit. Or you might be unlucky that you're the one who likes oreos and binge-watching which will make you a fat expert on TV characters.

[Scott 2]

@farm_or - funny enough, I have the impression that many going about ERE are in fact working harder day to day than I am as a career employee. I'm much more impressed by Jacob building a rake by hand than logging yet another 10 hour day at the computer. Grow your own food, remodel your home, etc. - it's hard work!

@Jacob - you do seem to skew high on the scale of intentional, self inflicted, yet optional, discomfort. I'm thinking back to some of the stuff you posted about the RV - blowing up the tires by hand or waterproofing the roof. I'm not surprised that carries through to your exercise.

Exercise of course, being an example that's easy for everyone to relate to. Is it worth training/leveraging those mental factors you highlight, for the sake of a greater work ethic, and greater rewards? Maybe even if the satisfaction of the work itself is the rewards. That's the question I struggle with.

How much of it is innate mental wiring vs something we should try to improve, at the potential cost of significant self inflicted pain.

There's no shortage of people that would want more of me, yet often what I want is to lay on the couch and play online with my phone. I'm not so sure that's the terrible thing I would have classed it as 10 years ago. Quadrant 4 for those old enough to have drank the 7 habits koolaid.


While I have these reservations about overworking and missing out on my favored (in)activities, curiosity has me tempted to follow the strongman's path of adapting to increasing levels of discomfort. Not just using more weight over time as I improve, but operating at a higher % of my potential work output, making regular tolerance if higher amounts of pain normal.

Maybe part of the appeal, is it's a well accepted, "noble" cause to direct my energy into. Even if it might not be the happiest path in the immediate to short term, it settles the insecurity that I'm wasting time, being lazy, missing out, etc.

To clarify - I work 40-50 hours a week, lift around 50,000lbs of volume a week, spread over 4 two hour sessions. It's not like I do nothing, but I see how it could be so much more.

[jacob]

I think we also need to distinguish between "hard work" and "more work". They're very different.

Running your first marathon (lets say sub 4 hr so you actually need to put in some preparation effort and not just rely on carry-over from being in shape) is "hard work". Running your second one, though, is just "more work". That's very different. I had the same discussions (both with myself and with others) when I stopped blogging. Coming up with all those ~1000 posts was "hard work". Repeating myself after that would just be "more work".

I think hard work often gets rewarded more than more work. It's the difference between quality and quantity. Building that first rake was worthwhile. Building a hundred of them or even two or three would have been useless.

[Campitor]

Hard work for its own sake is valueless. We owe it ourselves to earnestly examine what we want out of life to determine the direction and magnitude of our efforts. There is nothing wrong with going coach-potato for a day if that is what your body and mind need. But if you desire is to get in shape, which you mentioned as a factor for making this post, be aware that there are no shortcuts - muscles need to be stressed and endurance challenged to get in shape. You need to determine what kind of shape you want to be in so you can create a reasonable regimen/schedule of exercise.

In regards to the benefits of cultivating misery, a.k.a, being uncomfortable, again it depends on what your goals are. The value in training to be uncomfortable is you adapt to the current level of discomfort which allows you to break past any plateaus that keep you from your desired result. How important is the result and how bad is the discomfort you're willing to endure is only a question you can answer.

But if you're looking for a bit of inspiration - perhaps this TR quote may help:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

[FBeyer]

... I do less and achieve less...

I'd like to propose a rephrasing:

I do less and achieve something else.

Work and life operates in cycles. I keep enso pictograms in all sorts of places to remind myself of this (observe my avatar). If you press too hard with the brush, you'll run out of ink before you complete the circle. If you press too little, you'll have ink left when your life runs out.

You work hard, then you relax hard. You live, you die and someone else gets to do everything over and over again.

The relaxation you get from playing video games, watching movies, sitting still, and goofing off provides something that nose-to-the-grind stone study/workouts do not provide.

Much work gets you one thing. Much relaxation gets you something else. Less-work should be an integral part of holistic life planning if you ask me. Being able to sit on your ass in an important skill[1] and I think we're being cultivated to disdain 'doing nothing' to an almost pathological point.



Sorry for the OT.
Carry on.



[1] Well that, or my ADHD is merely killing just me and I'm projecting my experiences unto everyone else...

[Farm_or]

"The best rib eye in the country!". I had to test the advertised claim in Kansas City. It was quite good, but not as good as "The best rib eye in Idaho."

The difference between the two was my body's condition. When I ate the rib eye in Salmon Idaho, it was after biking over four hundred miles in five days through the mountains of Montana. That rib eye was sooo good! The rib eye in Kansas City was enjoyed after two days of conferences. It didn't have the same impact.

To live your life to the fullest requires a balance between doing and being. Couch sitting is more enjoyable when your legs are tired from running. Couch sitting after more couch sitting is just boring. The same as running after running.

We all have our own standards to live by and we're all out of balance to some point. Great inspiration has come from dissatisfied individuals. If da Vinci was satisfied with his first painting, we wouldn't have the Mona Lisa.

It's not a natural state to live in prolonged bliss. It is more natural to have the buzzing in your mind that you have left something undone. The pursuit of happiness is a journey not a destination.

[Gilberto de Piento]

I'll second what campitor said. It can be important to work hard but it is just as important to pick your battles well. I've wasted a lot of energy, particularly working hard for others with no reward.

[Scott 2]

I appreciate the input and am taking some time to ponder it before responding in full.

[Farm_or]

Okay, but what if your idea of a minimum standard is not good enough?

Sounds preposterous? But it is good to have some margin for error.

You won't know that your minimum standard is not good enough until it's too late.

Personally, I was very glad that my wood pile was bigger than it needed to be last winter.

[EdithKeeler]

Hunter-gathers did not work hard. I think there's research that shows they worked (or work, in the case of people like the !Kung) about 3 hours a day. The rest of the time was spent in relative leisure. So maybe we're wired a little bit to be that way.

I think the Protestant work ethic screwed everything up. We need to work harder than the lazy godless savages. And it's spun out over the years to the idea that busy people are "good" and non-busy people are "bad." Or not living up to their potential. Wasting their lives. Etc.

I'm not sure it's super healthy to lay on the sofa and watch tv all day, but I personally am not convinced that the cult of busy-ness is all it's cracked up to be, either.

I personally get really stressed out when I have too much on my plate. I can juggle work and family obligations and squeeze in a little creative stuff occasionally, and I don't feel a bit guilty about not doing my own yard or cooking from scratch every meal, and I happily drive to work rather than bike.

[Lucky C]

What Hard Workers have right is that it is not just beneficial to the organization but also to the individual to be productive most of the work day, but what some don't realize is that there is a sharp drop-off in performance, enjoyment, etc. as workload and difficulty is pushed past a certain optimal level.


For a given task (time scale << 1 day), there is often an easier or harder way to do it. To cut down a few small trees only a couple of inches in diameter, I can use a regular old saw, taking a couple of minutes per tree and getting some exercise for my arms. Or I can take the advice of my neighbor who doesn't understand why I wouldn't just use a chainsaw, the "easy" way to do it. A chainsaw would make the actual task quicker, but it would require much more work/energy in terms of working X hours to get the funds for the chainsaw, fueling the chainsaw, setting it up and maintaining it, etc. My neighbor was about to bring over his chainsaw for me to borrow, but all that would have done would be saving me a few minutes of my day off (so I would have a little more time to waste online I guess), and it would save me from expending some energy so that my arm muscles could more easily atrophy.

Many tasks fall into this category where it makes sense to do things the hard way, where most people doing things the easy way don't think about total costs and benefits. Usually the easy way consumes more money, more non-renewable resources, or both. Furthermore, people who will FIRE will eventually have an abundance of free time, so no big deal if doing things the hard way takes away a few minutes here and there. So it just makes sense for many of us to do small tasks this way. An exception would be if someone FIREd and then started their own business that they are 100% engrossed in, such that they don't want to be a generalist and instead can waste some resources on other tasks so that they can spend as much time as possible doing what's most important to them.

A person's skill level will help determine what the best difficulty level is to accomplish a task. Someone who has never cooked before will find frying eggs and toasting bread a good challenge, whereas an experienced cook could make an omelette and home fries just as easily and with more enjoyment, even though the task appears to be much more difficult. Operating at an appropriate difficulty level pays dividends from improving that skill, so doing something the "hardest" way once may pave the way to doing it the "easiest" way when you average the amount of effort taken to do it 100 times.

Therefore the best difficulty level of a task can vary from person to person, but often the seemingly easiest option is not the best one when taking all aspects (energy, time, web of goals) into consideration.


For a time scale of 1 day, it makes sense that people who work long hours and have their whole day pretty much booked can feel overworked and stressed, even if they are not doing hard labor all day. We work best when we have breaks throughout the day, whether we are doing physical labor or trying to solve problems mentally. Our muscles need time to rest and our minds need time to chunk what we're learning. Most people do well with a standard work day pattern of 8 hours of actual work, a big lunch break and couple small breaks throughout the day, free time to socialize or work on hobbies in the evenings, and a full night's sleep. This involves only doing actual work for only about half of waking hours, yet beyond that amount, efficiency & enjoyment starts to decline and mistakes & stress start to increase. On the other hand, the average person who works less than this is often bored because they can't figure out how to fill their time beyond consuming various forms of media.

Not only should the day be filled with the right quantity of work, not working too much or too little, but for optimal experience the work should be at the right difficulty level. Making a recent engineering graduate in charge of a completely new design would be too hard, but having him just sit in on meetings and order a few parts would be too easy. In either case, although his day might be fully scheduled, he would not be working optimally and would rarely achieve a flow state.

It has been my experience, backed up by biology and psychology, that an optimal day is filled with a few cycles of challenging (but not too difficult) work, with a few shorter periods to recharge and refocus throughout the day.


For longer time scales, it makes sense to continue this patter, having many short breaks from work (weekends) and longer breaks (vacations). There are clear benefits to having some time off and recharging, but after a week or two vacation there doesn't seem to be any reason to have any more time off because the reset is complete and instead skills would start to fade over a longer time scale.

My personality type is not one to schedule things out but instead to improvise and adapt. Still, I think it will be best for me if I shoot for a couple of four hour chunks of productivity per day once I quit my job, or longer/shorter periods if it makes sense for the task. I know I won't push myself too hard, but my challenge will be to stay motivated enough to not become bored and depressed. However much I end up working, I will always be striving for that optimal level of difficulty to keep me engaged and keep on improving without becoming frustrated.

[Farm_or]

@LuckyC - I can agree with all of that. I have been self-sufficient for five years now. I do a whole lot of things"the hard way", according to onlookers. There's many health benefits to the physical labor, and it is usually very low cost.

A couple of examples: I hand split, move by wheel barrow most of my firewood. On lookers assume that I must be crazy or too stupid to maintain the tractor, hydraulic log splitter, and dump trailer parked nearby. Same as when I am using my modified hand cart to move hay bales around the place. "What's wrong with the tractor and grapple?"

But as you point out, it's got to be managed correctly. I thought the whole work pattern of applying, then break, work again, beak for lunch was more of my corporation brain washing from working for wages for so long. But it can be optimizing work flow. Managed correctly, it allows fun to be had in work, and safety is increased by keeping yourself alert, healthy, motivated, and interested.

So much of the blame for hard work worship is put on the Protestant. What about the Asian work ethic? Or the immigrant? These are some of the hardest working (and happy,!) people I have known. My working life has been strongly influenced by Japanese culture. The key to their successes is the opposite of drudgery.

[EdithKeeler]

<I>

So much of the blame for hard work worship is put on the Protestant. What about the Asian work ethic? Or the immigrant? These are some of the hardest working (and happy,!) people I have known. My working life has been strongly influenced by Japanese culture. The key to their successes is the opposite of drudgery.</I>

And yet it's the Japanese who have a specific word in their vocabulary for "death by overwork."

I always think about my grandparents when these discussions come up. My grandfather worked on oil wells as a laborer (he had an 8th grade education), and my grandmother worked various times at various jobs, mostly involving cooking. They worked HARD.

Both of them "retired" pretty early, but continued to work their small farm until they were physically unable to (into their 80's). They worked very hard.... but not constantly. I suspect they were probably a little closer to the hunter-gatherer work style in some ways. When the weather was good, both were up at dawn doing what needed to be done--planting, harvesting, preserving, etc. But the workday was mostly done around 3:00, and they were often in bed by 7. In the winter, they didn't "work" many hours at all, given weather, etc. My grandfather tended to do woodworking in the winter, my grandmother made quilts.

I don't think they eschewed labor-saving devices that they could afford. Then again, my grandfather still plowed with a horse until it finally died when my grandfather was in his 70's. Winter tended to be a time for a bit more time spent with family and friends.

I am sure I idealize it, but it seems to me my grandparents had a much better BALANCE between hard work and leisure than I do in my urban life. Yeah, I don't plow and plant.... but I work year-round and have little time to socialize, etc.

[Scott 2]

Finally, I have the mental space to consider this fully. TLDR - More until I suffer, then less.


1. Jacob's distinction between more and hard work is a good one. It highlights a faulty pattern I fall into:

More work is immediately gratifying to me. My brain is wired to hyper-focus, burning 10 hours straight on the computer feels great at the moment. My wife will get mad - "why do you look so happy, you're working!!" From my employer's perspective, this behavior is easy to make money on, which only re-enforces the "I'm productive!" buzz I get. When I stop, I feel drained. I probably didn't eat or drink enough; I'm dizzy, my head might hurt, I have no focus left. There is zero desire left for hard work. Because my employer has an infinite appetite for this pattern, it can easily deprive the rest of my life, if I do not pull back intentionally.

From the perspective of making money, this class of more does have a relatively high return. My employer, like many others, rewards it with opportunities for hard work as well. That's how I know I don't want to lead, manage, run meetings, speak in public, etc. I've had my chances, done them well, and did not like it. I have to refuse the responsibility in an ongoing fashion.

However, I probably do miss out on opportunities that could be an order of magnitude more rewarding. I am content with the comfortable patterns my employer offers. In that sense, were I to strip out all the more work AND focus that same energy on hard work, I'd stand a good chance of making millions. But in trade of stress, risk, ongoing life sacrifice, etc. I've decided it's not worth it, but have to be careful not to let "more work" fill in that same space.


2. Another faulty pattern I have is using the best in a field as my model:

Modeling the expert will start well. Watch the best, decompose what they do, apply it to my own goals. When I can, take the opportunities to learn from them, paying if I have to. I will happily trade some "more work" for access to their expertise. Screw the one level up / down model that is best for the collective group; it is all about my development.

Where it breaks down, is all I see is me vs. them. There's no middle ground, no pride in the growth I've achieved, only the gap between us. I fixate on this and know I need to cover it, today. The behavior ties back to Jacob's motivator one (I shall not be defeated).

One example - I got into yoga, I did 90-minute classes every day, two back to back some days. I punished my joints to the point where I would struggle to lift a gallon jug. Then I'd take Advil just to practice again. I read dozens of the most complicated texts, traveled to dozens of studios, spent thousands of dollars on weekends with the most experienced teachers, etc. It wasn't until I managed to pop my SI joint out of place (this restrains you to the couch) that I recognized I was over-doing. Now, because I am not at that level, I struggle to do it at all.

Another great example is my experience with the strongman. His strength is triple mine. I look at his intensity level and think "that looks awful, how am I ever going to pay that price?". I ignore all the small steps he took to develop the ability, as well as his differing mental and physical traits. The man is a foot taller than me, 100lbs heavier and was captain of a top-tier university football team. I’m a 5’ 7” computer geek. Our potential is different. I also fail to acknowledge that squatting so hard my head turns purple and my nose starts bleeding, doesn't have to be my end game.

Instead, I can try harder, until it is too much, then pull back a bit. Seeking my limit is have chosen to do now – rather than dismissing the extreme intensity strongman uses as "excessive suffering." I am also trying the same with yoga. It is way harder than going all in until I burn out.


3. Cultivating desire is something I am learning to give more attention. If I sleep enough, eat well, exercise, avoid overworking, nurture my relationships, etc. - I feel great. This feeling then draws me to the "hard work" that is rewarding. It doesn't feel hard because I have the desire. The draw to "more work" is a huge detriment to my experience here, and I'm trying to reign it in. I think desire is the last of Jacob's three motivators (just happen to like it). I prefer to function here.


4. @FBeyer - Your rephrasing feels good (I do less and achieve something else.), but does not match my experience. I am doing and achieving far less in trying to release the hard work idol. Here are two example evenings:

Today - As people start to sign off from work, maybe I'll make some dinner, watch few dumb YouTube videos. I'll get to bed eventually. Might chat with my wife, go for a walk or something.

Past - Sign off at 5:30, to the minute. 30 minutes to eat dinner before I need to cook for the week. Start food prep while I'm eating, make pasta and produce concurrently. Since eating will finish before food prep completes, also have a scotch. My ears are open, and my brain is available, so I'll do a podcast at the same time. Finish as scheduled at 8:15, do an hour of yoga, tell my wife is she wants to chat, now's the time. Then head upstairs at 9:15, because it's time see the wife. Finish up right at 10, because that's when I shower, groom and get ready for bed. In bed at 10:30, so I can be up at 6, with an alarm. Based on trial and error, I know 7.5 hours is my optimal amount of sleep. I need to wake right at 6, to fit my studying, morning walk, lifting, and wholesome breakfast in before starting work precisely at 9. I know that by accounting for every minute in my google calendar, which I update while preparing for bed.

The past was hugely productive. I was not happy, but I was much too busy to bother with feelings. The action came from Jacob's motivator two (there is no try, you do, or you don't). With the life experience I have now, the old patterns seem miserable and would be impossible. I had transitioned directly from a high achieving educational pattern (high school valedictorian with all the activities, an engineering degree from a top-tier private university, in 3 years, while working half-time), so it felt normal. I was in so deep; I could not appreciate how broken the pattern was. I still see many former peers grinding away. Naturally, we've drifted, but I feel for them.


5. Funny enough - overdoing physical labor has never been an issue for me. Every taste I've had, I always hated it. The distaste includes working with tools. I find great ways to justify getting help from others here. “I can earn more money using time recovered by paying a housekeeper.” “The cost to gather and maintain a set of tools exceeds infrequently paying an expert when I need help.” The reality is, I hate manual labor. I recognize there's a good chance over-doing in other areas (valued more highly by my social conditioning), lead me to this perspective, and deprived me of the value of labor.


6. Balance sounds wonderful. Conceptually I agree that's the optimal place to land. I want to live it. Doing so, in the face of a culturally dysfunctional relationship with the value of work, eludes me. Hence the thread. I have spent years trying to identify this conditioning and correctly re-program it. Doing nothing is not the answer either, but it can hold an awful lot of appeal at times.


Again, I appreciate the input everyone has provided. My behavior is gradually changing. This morning not only did I have the desire to revisit the idea, I even tried running my post through Grammarly. I wanted to give a try for at least a year. The fact that I have is a good sign I am moving towards balance.

[finity]

In case you have never read Betrand Russell:
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

[Scott 2]

I had not seen that before, interesting read. Organizing people into productive 4h days seems extremely difficult. Being on the receiving end does hold appeal.

[Noedig]

Work expresses our innate capacity to strive.

Capitalist societies harvest that capacity.

Fortunately, the owner of The System has been tracked down, and here in an interview The Man explains what is going on....

http://www.raptitude.com/2013/09/an-int ... h-the-man/