Former IBM Chairman Thomas J. Watson, Jr., wrote that: "In IBM we frequently refer to our need for 'wild ducks.' The moral is drawn from a story by the Danish philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard who told of a man who fed the wild ducks flying south in great flocks each fall. After a while some of the ducks no longer bothered to fly south; they wintered in Denmark on what he fed them. In time they flew less and less. After three or four years they grew so lazy and fat that they found difficulty in flying at all. Kierkegaard drew his point: you can make wild ducks tame, but you can never make tame ducks wild again. One might also add that the duck who is tamed will never go anywhere any more.
The point where 'wild' is lost is different for each person. I guess some are born tame. Others never lose it regardless of their age.
I think 'wild ducks' is a good way to look at people - like those here at ERE - who get a handle on the system then use it to perpetuate their desire to remain wild.
What are some indications that a person has spent so long in captivity that they've lost the ability to be wild?
I have always admired your wild, free life. But I don't think most people are ever wild.
Myself, I was pretty much feral as a kid, and saw the high casualty rate of my fellow underclass. So I spent my young adulthood desperately trying to look domesticated, trying to be middle class. And I got pretty good at it. I was really tired of plucking my pinfeathers by the time I found ERE.
But to answer your question, I would say most of us are tame, the wild ones are a tiny minority.
Oh, I think most on this board are here because they are to some extent wild and recognize the possibility of losing it. Just think how unconventional a person has to be to have a savings rate of 50% plus. That is wild. Over the long haul maybe 4 or 5% of the population has a savings rate that high? Remove inheritance and that drops significantly.
I posted this because two friends recently retired at the beginning of the summer. Both are mid-fifties. One hit the ground running. The other hit the ground and sunk into his Lazyboy. The Lazyboy guy wasn't the kind of guy who owned a Lazyboy just a few years ago. He stayed at work just a little too long. I can't seem to figure out what caused him to lose the spark.
I lost my spark when living with my family, and I am young here relative to most.
I moved out and got that back. Now I can migrate wherever I want and see the world.
Desmond Morris describes how most of us have to be tame for civilization to work in "The Human Zoo". Civilization is based upon a repression of our wild urges.
Most people are content being hidden in a crowd, accepted by peers, and spinning in the hamster wheel. At least, that's how I perceive them. One of my long term friends thinks I am an outlier and extremely passionate about life, even when I feel stagnant.
I posted this because two friends recently retired at the beginning of the summer. Both are mid-fifties. One hit the ground running. The other hit the ground and sunk into his Lazyboy. The Lazyboy guy wasn't the kind of guy who owned a Lazyboy just a few years ago. He stayed at work just a little too long. I can't seem to figure out what caused him to lose the spark.
A friend of ours behaved this way recently. Turns out she had cancer, and the lack of interest/energy was an early warning sign. Maybe encourage him to get a physical just to rule something like that out?
You have to define what is meant by "wild". One person's wild is another person's tame.
If the term "wild" means "unconventional", then probably most here can rightfully call themselves that. After all, not thinking of money as the go-to method to solve a problem is very different than most people's approach to life.
Wild in terms of being removed from civilization reminds me of theanimal's life in Alaska. He lives a wild life as I see it. In that definition, very few people, even on this forum, lead a wild life. Ego, both you and I lead a pretty conventional life in a conventional dwelling is a big HCOL city. Not wild in my mind. But when I think of your adventures in the van, that was a lot closer to wild than I ever lived. You married a wild one and that certainly helps.
I like to think of wild as pushing beyond your existing limits in terms of Renaissance skills. Then yes, most of us are wild. I don't see that as having much to do with how long you worked. But under that definition I have become way more wild since I retired.
A lot of retired people who live in Michigan buy large recreational vehicles, inclusive of Lazyboy style lounge chairs, and drive them south for the winter. Other people visit tanning salons and take anti-depressants. Other people fly on an airplane to go someplace more "interesting" for a few weeks.The Native Americans retreated to their lodges, occasionally going out ice fishing, smoked tobacco and ate venison preserved with maple syrup, corn and squash. My best practice, which I don't always follow, is to drink my first mug of coffee, then bundle up with 3 layers, then trudge through the snow along some trail semi-prepared for me by some division (city/county/state/federal) of the public park service or a large private property owned by a friend, while drinking my second and third mugs of coffee from a thermos. Limiting factor on my sun-seeking daily adventure usually being my need to pee complicated by budgetary constraints causing lock-up of trail facilities. I suppose I could choose to bundle up more babushka-like and wear layers of flannel skirts over my hiking boots instead of pants, or buy one of those plastic doodads that helps females pee standing up.
When I did my experiment for a few days of only eating food I could forage while wandering around on foot that was kind of fun, challenging and interesting, but then my BF picked me up in his car and we went to a restaurant and I ordered pancakes, and they were SO super delicious!!!
Thanks Ego. DW and I have about 4 months to go, and this has been weighing heavily on my mind. 7 years ago we started on the path to FI...and I was wild!
Back then I hid my wild nature from my colleagues, but it was there. Now I find myself looking for that wolf, and find instead a domesticated dog, happy to sit up, roll over, and wait patiently by the food dish.
Staying too long in your job is a real danger.
Symptoms:
Becoming addicted to seeing your net worth grow
Enjoying the social benefits of work (respect of peers and subordinates, attention from the opposite sex)
Forgetting why you started down this path
When I think wild, I think of folks like Ego and 7w5, living by wits and grabbing opportunity, rather than my own regular pay checks.
All the wild ones I knew in my youth are dead, in prison, or recovering addicts working Joe jobs. In every case wild didn't last long. That's why I chose to emulate domesticated life.
It is really inspirational to see wild from people who were born in captivity, but escaped.
Ego I see where you’re coming from. I feed some mallards at a pond (built by the city water district) near my place. They approach people and beg. I used to duck hunt and these guys are no longer wild. But they must also know how to deal with coyotes. I call them feral. Not like escaped farm animals but somewhere between wild and domestic. They are an interesting bunch. Smart adaptive bastards. Not caged but not migratory wild birds either.
I consider myself an escaped domesticated animal. I know wild and I’m not that. I dream that I’m a wolf but I’m really just a mongrel who likes to loiter on a large farm. I’ve been known to dig in the trash pile like you. I’m careful not to make a mess. I don’t shit where the farmers walk. Nobody has called animal control yet but they wonder how I survive. I’m left alone probably because I look like Fido. Farms are full of this type of animal.
Members of the family ask if I’ll ever work or start another business. I tell them I’m too feral. I guess I’m a mallard living in the Irvine Ranch Water District reservoir. Maybe that’s why I’m so fond of those guys. Or maybe I’m a pig who knows how to operate the electronic locks at Tyson and I wear a hacked RFID tag saying I’m one month old.
I've only seen one end result, my grandpa who died a couple years after becoming unable to work on his farm then moved to the lazy boy and lost his strong mind and body in a world without immediate purpose (might seem oversimplified, but this is the theory among his 9 children and 30 grandchildren).
As a late 20s millenial currently watching friends become institutionalized, I can offer a glimpse from the beginning/middle of the process on indications you've waited too long to THINK about early retirement.
a) Signs up for 30 year cashflow commitment because bi-weekly payment on 20 year death pledge was too high (or something along these lines)
b) Ditto for 7 year new 0% financed car cashflow commitments
c) Emotionally charged discussions about benefits, pension plans and a) and b)
d) Loses ability to shotgun a beer with only their thumb
I think c) is actually the strongest indicator since it views those things as an end (maybe to wildness?) vs a means to be wild.
I can't seem to figure out what caused him to lose the spark.
A friend of ours behaved this way recently. Turns out she had cancer, and the lack of interest/energy was an early warning sign. Maybe encourage him to get a physical just to rule something like that out?
That is exactly what was going on with my father after he retired as well. Yet it never occurred to me that it could be similar with my buddy. It's weird how my brain blocks out the such an obvious possibility because I don't want it to be true. I will try to steer him in that direction. Thanks.
I like to think of wild as pushing beyond your existing limits in terms of Renaissance skills. Then yes, most of us are wild. I don't see that as having much to do with how long you worked. But under that definition I have become way more wild since I retired.
Yeah, I think your right, the pursuit of a wide variety of skills really is what I mean. It requires a certain spark to pursue Renaissance skills. I can remember thinking that if I continued on the path I was on, my spark would go out.
I just had a long talk with a friend who sells at the swap meet. He is a real wheeler dealer. He came to the US from one of the former Soviet republics as a kid in the 90s on a refugee visa and still has a green card. Just last year he acquired Russian citizenship and is thinking of taking his kids back for a few years because he thinks they are growing up soft. He talked about the 'job' mentality in the US and how he worries about them. I got the distinct feeling he was worried that he was bringing up tame kids in a world that will require wild skills.
I guess I’m a mallard living in the Irvine Ranch Water District reservoir. Maybe that’s why I’m so fond of those guys. Or maybe I’m a pig who knows how to operate the electronic locks at Tyson and I wear a hacked RFID tag saying I’m one month old.
I definitely see you as the guy who overrided the locks and hacked the RFID tag, but not one of the pigs! I love the stories you tell about pulling shit apart and jerry rigging it back together so that it works better than new. These are exactly the skills that will be invaluable in the future.
c) Emotionally charged discussions about benefits, pension plans and a) and b)
I think c) is actually the strongest indicator since it views those things as an end (maybe to wildness?) vs a means to be wild.
I grew up in Philly. Excluding sports, there were two topics of conversation around the dinner table whenever family or friends dropped by, which was constantly.(I can smell the ever-present Entenmann's coffee cake and the percolated coffee right now as I type this).
Illnesses and pensions. Who is sick with what? Who got the job with the city, state, feds, cops, fire department..... and how are they planning on taking the pension after they retire. Master class in EDE . (early death extreme)
Emulate. Next to our resident Jack London (theanimal) you're the wildest among us. You pretend to be domesticated. How does that feel? I would imagine you employ a great deal of your (not insignificant) wits to keeping up the domestication?
He talked about the 'job' mentality in the US and how he worries about them. I got the distinct feeling he was worried that he was bringing up tame kids in a world that will require wild skills.
Boy does this resonate with me. I hoped at least one of my kids would go in a wild direction, but they both seem hell-bent on pursuing a steady lifelong job with benefits. As in government or big corporate jobs. Where did I fail?????
@RealPerson: you know that each generation goes against the previous generation. It simply skips a generation. Wait for your grandchildren.
Wait, that means I can expect the same? . Oh well, at least I cannot blame myself with this reasoning
OT and more seriously, I do hope that when I RE I am able to get back some/most of my curiosity and energy I had before (also considering getting older and the natural change that come with this). It is one of my (smaller) worries though.
I have to laugh at the idea of IBM as the standard for wild. It's one of the largest corporations in the world. The few people I've might that needed to tell me about their work at IBM, have been very image conscious careerists.
In my experience, the wild ones don't see it as unusual, and would never identify as such. They see the experience most of us lead as unbearable and can't help but do something else.
I've never been anything but tame. I appreciate the ease our modern world provides very much.
and that certainly helps.
. Oh well, at least I cannot blame myself with this reasoning 