Libraries and Gardens

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7Wannabe5
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Libraries and Gardens

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need." Marcus Tullius Cicero

The purpose of this thread will be to debate the truth of this quote, and to discuss the core meaning or implications of the words "have", "garden", "library" and "need." It is also highly likely that I will babble at some length on the topic of life-cycle management of libraries and gardens, since these are realms in which I have some knowledge and experience.

First approach to the truth of Cicero's statement, within the context of this forum, would be to inquire if we are in agreement that if an individual had a garden and a library, they would not necessarily need passive income from an investment portfolio in order to happily achieve FI/ERE? Would we also agree that having enough passive investment income to afford constant fluid access to healthy selection of brain and body food would constitute equally happy alternative solution?

chenda
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by chenda »

I think it was a given anyone who had a garden and library in those times was financially independent.

We might say you all you need today is a house and an internet connection...

Jason

Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Jason »

Yes, books were extremely expensive before the invention of the printing press so the discussion would have to take place within our historical context. Not to mention, most people were illiterate.

That being said, if human companionship is implicit in the equation, then yes . However you would be limited to certain climates .

enigmaT120
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by enigmaT120 »

Maybe if I had myself gelded a library and a garden would be enough. Was Cicero intact?

No, wait -- I need forest, too.

J_
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by J_ »

Our (public) libraries are for me a joy, an antidote to internet libraries (and kindle). Random looking and taking a book from the shelfs, read some pages..use my imagination...and take it home to read if it seams interesting. My private library is small (two bookcases) and not a need per se.
A (private) little garden is the joy of the morning, and coming home through the back gate (where the garden is) gives me often a pang of joy too. Yes, I am lucky to have one. The garden is a place to have quiet talks and having some tan, plant and weed a little, the library a place for quiet contemplating and to be curious. So yes Cicero I think you were right, both for or after financial independence.
I would say the library is for me always a "need". When I live in my (small) apartment in a mountain village (with a public library) I have compensation for lack of a garden by having an accessible nature "garden" as far as I can see and walk or ski. So a private garden is in that case not a "need" for me.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@chenda:

Good point. The fact that Cicero owned slaves might also be a tad relevant. Like when I learned that one of the secrets to success of the Reverend E. P. Roe, author of "Play and Profit in My Garden", West Point, NY 1873, was his ability to hire street urchins to pick his berries at the piece-rate of 1.5 cents/quart. Of course, lacking access to slaves or child-labor, the thoroughly modern perma-culturist could at least attempt to round up a WOOLF volunteer or 2. My own garden is currently being tended by my burly African-American buddy/partner, and it is a bit of a joke between us that my skin-sensitivity and relative lack of upper-body strength makes it necessary for me to sometimes dress or behave like a very low-rent version of the mistress of a Southern plantation. However, he is equally enthusiastic about the project, and actually waaaaaaay more bossy than me, and always directing me to work that requires squatting, while he mans some heavy tool. Same thing happens with my BF when I am working with him on his project. It's always something like "I will operate the chain-saw while you scurry around dealing with the twigs." Wouldn't even buy me a Daisy Pink Carbine on clearance for $13 :evil:

Anyways, that said, I was thinking that the notion of having and maintaining a garden could be inclusive of beneficial physical exercise, fresh air and sunshine. A house and an internet connection would not provide these other positives. A house and an internet connection would also not include any food, unless Amazon delivery of monthly allotment of Soylent was included in the system.

@Jason:

Another good point. Books have sometimes been too expensive even in recent history. My Persian-American ex always said that one of the best things about America was our free public libraries, because in his boyhood in Tehran, even the cost of buying textbooks was too big of a hurdle for many of the members of the lowest strata to cross. The son of his Nanny, childhood playmate, was able to bootstrap, but this was in good part due to the fact that service to wealthy family brought some access. Cicero told his friends that the Britons made poor slaves because they were ugly and could not be taught how to read. Liberal minded people tend towards wanting to teach their slaves how to read. Another very popular book of the Victorian era, predecent to Horatio Alger, "Ishmael; or In The Depths" by Mrs. Southworth, featured a protagonist who rose to success after being granted a gift of books from a wealthy sponsor. Unfortunately, some vandal set fire to the Little Free Library box that was located on the property of another garden project in my neighborhood, and thereby limited my ability to further engage in such altruism.

I just checked the climate conditions for Arpino, Italy, and might get a bit uncomfortable sleeping under a tree in December/January, but nothing like my neck of the woods. However, I was thinking that planting and harvest of firewood or at least straw mixed with livestock excrement into burn blocks could be included in definition of garden as needed.

Jason

Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Jason »

Re: Slaves. The nature of slave ownership needs to be contextualized with in each historical setting.

At certain times slavery was voluntary and transient. Not all of slave societies were as Virulent and oppressive as the slave society our country housed. I'm not an expert on the topic but it's worth noting. I personally believe that owning a slave although reprehensible in 1760 was not as reprehensible as owning one in 1861 as the norms and conditions of the society changed. And as Frederick Douglas made clear, they purposefully kept the slaves illiterate .

In medeival society you really didn't have books but what they called Florelegia which were compendiums of important sayings and points from other books like Lombards sentences. The Reformation brought in mass publishing of books and distribution of information, it was the internet of its day.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@enigmaT120:

Right. Most idealized gardens include some sort of possibility for mating. I do not know how long I would last alone with my garden and my stacks before feeling some level of urge to signal availability. Unless health problem, contract, or some recent trauma otherwise inhibited me, I am thinking 6 weeks maximum. Cicero, although married twice, and not rumored to be celibate, may have done better.

Permaculture model includes Zone 5- Wilderness which might cover your need for forest. In my urban setting, the only "wilderness" within biking distance was either the Detroit River or a very dangerous neighborhood, and that did feel like something I needed was missing. No ability to get totally lost in the green or the blue sucks.

@J_ :

Exactly. They are sources of joy and places to indulge curiosity. Just like I have never been able to quite get lost in the wilderness of my own garden, I have never quite been able to get lost in the wilderness of my own personal library. I had over 10,000 books in my possession at the height of my years of book-dealing, but the books I was able to sell for a profit only had maybe 50% at most overlap with all the books I wanted to read.

@Jason:

I agree that slavery needs to be contextualized. If you own your own body and time, why shouldn't you be able to sell yourself as an indentured servant? I think the borderline might be when somebody else has the right to sell your body and time, or you are born into such a situation, no matter how otherwise lovely the conditions.

I think the printing press brought in the Reformation more than vice-versa. Kind of like free love and the pill. Or maybe Polyamory, the internet, and the pill. Kind of scary that Cicero and his first wife could agree to civil divorce prior to second marriage to young ward, but so many centuries later Henry the 8th had to resort to exile and head-lopping in order to just do what many mature human males naturally do when their resource base exceeds ???acres/bushels/heads/$$$/shares divided by obligations and/or sons.

I am trying to learn more about how the internet actually works, because I am kind of worried about all the out-of-print, no longer copyrighted books that are being scanned into databases. This practice sometimes has the unintended consequence of making the book of much less value on the used market, therefore much less likely to be preserved in hard copy. Libraries, public and private, have shelf space as primary limiting factor, not financial ability to purchase new books. So, when an old book goes out, it will likely eventually end up being recycled if no dealer can make enough profit from resale. Luckily, most humans are still trained to not just throw a book in the trash, but storage space is limited. I have searched through the personal libraries of many, many humans at estate sales held after their deaths, and most people have copies of the same popular titles on their shelves. Like someday they are going to get around to re-reading some Tom Clancy thriller or finishing "Godel, Escher, Bach", but then they die first.

Jason

Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Jason »

I would suggest reading a recent book "Brand Luther" by Andrew Pettegree. It goes into great detail how Martin Luther singlehandedly developed the modern printing industry. I think at one point he was responsible for 50% of all titles on the market and was the first to "brand" his books so you would know they were written by him merely by the cover. Luther used publishing the way Trump used Twitter. He went around the established institutions and forms of discourse and debate and brought his message directly to the people. They were both more effective with the general population than the "elites."

https://www.amazon.com/Brand-Luther-Unh ... 1594204969

chenda
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by chenda »

@jason - Trump in the past tense, what have I missed ? 😆

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Kriegsspiel »

One thing I noticed that I think is bullshit: libraries using Hoopla, not Overdrive. As far as I can tell, Hoopla doesn't support regular old Kindle downloads from Amazon like Overdrive does. Hoopla only lets you read on a device with the Hoopla app downloaded, like a Kindle Fire or (I think) a Nook. So my old Kindle that I've read tons of books on is useless when a library decides to support Hoopla.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Kriegsspiel:

Interesting perspective on the purpose of the modern library.

Does anybody here have any good clue how safe the last extant copy of some book would be if it is only stored in digital format? For instance, assume the grid goes down. How long until this book is irretrievably lost to humanity?

Jason

Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Jason »

chenda wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:59 pm
@jason - Trump in the past tense, what have I missed ? 😆
Yeah, I'll leave that one alone.

That being said, what I was really comparing was Luther's use of the printing press to obtain popular appeal during his initial dispute with the Holy Roman Church and Trump's use of Twitter on the campaign trail. Luther said fuck this Latin bullshit, I'm going directly to the common language of the People and Trump symbolically did the same thing. I think there are similarities in that they each got more than what they bargained for - Luther the collapse of Christendom and the movement known as Lutheranism and Trump actually winning the Presidency and the movement known as Trumpism.

I think there is also a case for diminishing and negative returns of the use of their respective media after being propelled to victory. Luther's continued use of pamphlets led to the peasants war where certain of his followers mis-interpreted his theology and started civil unrest as has happened recently with Trump. Both were reluctant to initially take responsibility for their contributions to the radical sects of their movements and both legacies has been tainted by extremism and racism (Luther with the Jews, Trump with immigrants). It's not a perfect analogy, all analogies break down, but there are obviously some similarities.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Jason:

Very interesting analogy. I have added the book on Luther to my reading list. Unfortunately, I always have more new, new books on my reading list than I can afford to purchase, or hope to get from my library, or pick up at a sale in near future. I can walk around a mall pretty much endlessly without being tempted, but the New York Times Book Review and the Johnny's Select Seed catalogue are like crack-house for me. Okay, more like donut shoppe* for me. Or, maybe, like a dream of entering a room full of men previously dated by Jessica Lange, Marilyn Monroe, or Kim Novak. How can I choose?! Why must I choose?!

*ETA: As they used to sing on Sesame Street, "One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong...". Please replace "donut shoppe" with either Astoria or Shatila Bakery or the Sucre Sweets Boutique. Do I "need" chocolate and fine pastry? Would I "need" to have sex with the made-flesh-ghost of Sam Shepard if possible? Maybe "need" isn't exactly the right word, but I predict that in any post-apocalyptic scenario, it is highly likely I would be the first kid on the block to re-invent something resembling a cookie using only maple sap, acorn flour, rendered rabbit fat and a rude hearth oven. It's only the "self-aware" half of my "self-aware sensualist" XNTP personality type that keeps me functioning remotely in the realm of frugality.
Last edited by 7Wannabe5 on Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dream of Freedom
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Dream of Freedom »

Libraries and gardens are great things. Though I think that there are also wonderful things outside of this highly introverted box Cicero would put us all into.

Jason

Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Jason »

My guess is that Cicero did not mean that libraries and gardens are literally all you need.

He's an orator so his goal was most likely to say something "controversial" to gain an audience and start a discussion -similar to this thread.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Dream of Freedom:

Agree. Beyond an attractive sexual partner, I would want some friends with whom I could share food, drink and conversation, seated together at some table in the garden or library. I would also want some friends I could hike with in the wilderness or with whom I could attend a concert or share music. I also enjoy the company of young children and animals.

After reading several post-apocalyptic novels and preparedness guides, I decided that my permaculture systems design, beyond providing food for me and a theoretical 7 year old, also had to support a community symphony orchestra at population level of 80,000* (whether rural dispersed or more urban crunched.) I don't know if I will have to live through the next apocalypse, and I definitely don't think I will outlive the "scavenger era" during which I could likely content myself with assigning the 7 year old the task of cranking a re-habbed Victrola, but my intellectual aesthetic will not be satisfied short of "community symphony" level long-term theoretical sustainable system.

*Obviously, some other community based co-operative endeavors such as fire brigade, or lending library, or open mixed planting fruit orchard, or poorhouse would become "need" at different population levels and/or densities.

Jason

Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Jason »

I went to a post apocalypse survival lecture.

Gold. Lots of gold. And plastic wrap. I can't remember exactly why though.

Smashter
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by Smashter »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:36 pm
Like someday they are going to get around to re-reading some Tom Clancy thriller or finishing "Godel, Escher, Bach", but then they die first.
ha, I checked out "Godel, Escher, Bach" from the library this month and I am going to return it unfinished. Those dialogues were brutal. Maybe I am blind to his brilliance, but Douglas Hofstadter feels like Gregory Bateson with half the charm, twice the ego, and a disdain for brevity.

I am intrigued by your question about what happens when every book is digitized and we throw away the originals. I have a sister in law who is a library archivist. She takes a lot of pride in organizing digitization projects. It would be ironic if she was contributing to the demise of books. But can't they be re-printed? Or is there some kind of intangible value in the originals? I guess there is the worry that texts could be altered for nefarious purposes before re-printing, but now we're venturing into science fiction territory.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Libraries and Gardens

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Jason

Are you sure you were in the right room? Sounds like you might have wandered into reunion of 70s swingers club. Of course, not insignificant overlap of those two communities...

@Smashter:

Known thing that you are not alone in setting Hofstadter aside, thus my attempt at book dealer humor.

Obviously, hard copies can be re-printed from digital files, but who is in charge of possessing the foresight and ability to do this prior to some grid-crashing catastrophe? Does the Library of Congress have an emergency back-up power source for it's digital files, like the preemie ward in a city hospital? Are multiple copies of the data stored in a dispersed manner? I don't know if the average citizen, or even the average literate citizen, realizes how many millions of unique books have been published since the invention of the printing press, or how many of these books are so rare, you still can't find any reference to the title with google search. And, it is not the case that these are books of no merit, or of no further use. In fact, many of the books on topics that would prove very useful in the event of major catastrophe were never widely printed, or were last printed in 1932 and the stock has decayed or been discarded. So, your sister-in-law is correct that scanning some of these books into digital version before the paper degrades is preservative measure, but I fret about unintended consequences. Perhaps needlessly.

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