I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

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IlliniDave
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:21 am

classical_Liberal wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:38 pm
I agree with @wood and @sustainablehappiness. Knowing there are alternatives to wage slavery puts you at a happiness disadvantage.
That's interesting because the opposite was my experience (I have that observation a lot around here, haha!). When I first started thinking about the next phase of life in earnest I was still employing conventional thinking and was just shy of the halfway point in an expected 40-45 year "career". I had resigned myself to decades more of turning the crank while little bits of sausage dribbled into the bowl. I adapt well to the corporate ecosystem (in the sense I find ways to make the superficially dull interesting) so I didn't see that as an awful fate, but it wasn't very inspiring either. As I gradually determined that I could build my own off ramp rather than relying on the one provided by societal norms I was invigorated. Even the most menial tasks had a noble purpose in a time frame short enough to be more than an abstraction. That's not to say I don't get impatient some times. I work just as hard at finding ways to spin things positively or neutrally as some do to spin things negatively, which is what it all boils down to I'd guess.

Loner
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by Loner » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:26 am

@Zalo
"there isn't as much good work out there"-> True if you believe it, untrue if you don't. To a point, liking what you do is a choice.

"If this were fun they'd charge you at the door.[...] Rangers, ski instructors, mountain guides. etc. get paid significantly less than doctors, lawyers, and business people." Who said that being a doctor, lawyer and business person is inherently less fun than being a ranger, ski instructor or mountain guide? Is this an immutable law of nature? This will depend, amongst other things, on the match between your job and your temperament.

"The work I want to do includes sailing, hiking, flirting, and maybe writing. For fun."-> Have you considered becoming James Bond? :lol:

classical_Liberal
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by classical_Liberal » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:01 am

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:21 am
That's interesting because the opposite was my experience (I have that observation a lot around here, haha!). When I first started thinking about the next phase of life in earnest I was still employing conventional thinking and was just shy of the halfway point in an expected 40-45 year "career". I had resigned myself to decades more of turning the crank while little bits of sausage dribbled into the bowl.
I believe this was true for me as well... at first. In the "mind blown, why didn't I think of this before" initial phase, I became much more upbeat. This waned quickly after action steps were taken and much of the financial-side goals became automagical. Instead, I started to focus how much better life would be in total freedom of work; hence became less satisfied with my current situation. Switching to an ERE mindset (vs bogleheads which focuses only on financial) has helped, now I have more work to do from a systems flows standpoint. Zalo, on the other hand, has known of ERE inevitability before jumping on the work wagon. Zalo probably already has a more advanced set of system flows than I. In essence, the poor young'en :D has probably bypassed the super excited, "I can get out of this rut" phase.
Loner wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:26 am
@Zalo
"The work I want to do includes sailing, hiking, flirting, and maybe writing. For fun."-> Have you considered becoming James Bond? :lol:
I applied for this job. It has a high entry level barrier. A license to kill is a job requirement and is virtually impossible to get thanks to government bureaucracy. :lol:

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Riggerjack
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:18 am

Cancel your plans this weekend, answer a Craigslist ad for drywall help. Bust your ass for a pittance. Go back to the office Monday, sore and tired.

I may sound like a grouchy old man talking to a spoiled child, but this is my honest advice. You need perspective. You need to have something to compare what you are currently working on, that makes your work seem better. And more importantly, you need to learn to have a good time, when the dust clogs your nose, fills your eyes, and makes you cough. When you are tired, and sweaty, have been packing panels all day up stairs, with hours left to go, and are laughing with the guys you work with, then you are ready to work in an office.

Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so. (Did I just quote fcukin Shakespeare!?? I gotta get out of the office more.)

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TopHatFox
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by TopHatFox » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:39 am

Loner wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:26 am


"The work I want to do includes sailing, hiking, flirting, and maybe writing. For fun."-> Have you considered becoming James Bond? :lol:
Yes, the pay sucks :D

IlliniDave
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:39 pm

classical_Liberal wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:01 am
I believe this was true for me as well... at first. In the "mind blown, why didn't I think of this before" initial phase, I became much more upbeat. This waned quickly after action steps were taken and much of the financial-side goals became automagical. Instead, I started to focus how much better life would be in total freedom of work; hence became less satisfied with my current situation. Switching to an ERE mindset (vs bogleheads which focuses only on financial) has helped, now I have more work to do from a systems flows standpoint.
I get what you are saying. That's where my lean towards Zen philosophy helps me maybe. I've taught myself to keep my attention with me and at least seriously curb it's propensity to fly off and create tension/stress by dwelling on what isn't real at the moment. I also take opportunities to dry-run retirement. In a couple days I leave for a 32-day away from work period which will include time "back home" with family and time at the cabin-in-the-woods (both cornerstones in the early years of my ER vision). It reminds me I'm not barred from enjoying life for years at a time because I'm not retired today; and I can see/touch what the money I'm working to pile up is buying me. Satisfaction comes from seeing that my labor bears fruit when the connection is established. Obviously I believe the free future will be better in many ways, but that's not an impediment to being happy, content, whatever, now. For me, if I was unhappy now and viewed some future situation as prerequisite for my happiness, it would be a pitfall stumbled into. If I'm not happy now I won't be happy in 21 months due to superficial changes. I guess I'm wired bad because I don't see a horrible-to-blissful path out there where being employed is all that holds me back. Maybe it's more fun if I could make a dramatic, titanic struggle out of it. :lol: As it is, it's just showing up and turning the crank every day. Unexciting, but dependable.

Maybe a "systems flows standpoint" will help. I hope it does for you. I really don't quite grasp the concept myself. That's on purpose, sorta. In my profession "system" has multiple (though each one precise) meanings, and when people write about systems here it makes my head hurt. I'm maxed out on the number of different ways I can simultaneously think about system theory.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:49 pm

Do you think you would feel differently if your job was more piece-work than 9-5? For instance, if you were tasked with helping to build a stone wall, and you were paid $2 for every stone you put in place, and as soon as you were able to put 100,000 stones in place you would be FI? I think this is why doing an exercise like making a monthly entry into a YMOYL style cross-over chart can be motivating. I think some people (me) might need more frequent tangible pumps of motivational reward juice towards ultimate goal. Producing a good, rather than providing a service, is more in alignment with this. That's why "A man may work from sun to sun, but a woman's work is never done." Being able to get to DONE or next mile marker on your own terms might feel freeing, even if that means actually working more rather than less. For instance, you could take on a side-gig with piece-work structure in addition to your day job.

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Allagash
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by Allagash » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:55 pm

Some random thoughts:

-I worked at start ups in Silicon Valley in the 90's and mostly hated my jobs and had to drink a pot of coffee since the work was really tough and demanding

-I did it to get rich but never really liked technology that much - most of it was BS politics and working with bi-polar insane workaholic bosses

-I hated the social part of the job, having to put on a happy face, ask people superficially how their weekend was, work with shallow f'd up mentally people, jealousies, back stabbing, clicks, tribalism, ass kissing, pissing contests, etc... People I didn't like or would not choose to hang out with personally I was forced to work with. You can choose your friends, not your co-workers. I was meant to be an independent contractor or self-employed. No way can I work in a organization and the organizational psychology that develops as a result.

-Caffeine can be tough to stop - I switched to loose leaf green tea in 2002 because it is easier on my body than coffee, but that still I believe it negatively affects my health due to the caffeine. Today's jobs that largely require you to sit at a screen all day and use your mind vs. your body is a reason caffeine is so popular. 200 years ago you were likely on the family farm (or making something by hand in a shop), and you got up, fed the pigs, worked on projects, were out in the sun, trees and the fresh air...and that physical movement woke you up and kept your blood pumping vs. the need for caffeine. My biggest issue with caffeine is it affects the quality of my sleep, and therefore the quality of my health. And other issues like tenseness, jittery, dehydration, gums and teeth don't feel as healthy. But it is difficult to do without that caffiene jolt in the am

James_0011
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by James_0011 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:46 pm

@alllagash

Did you get rich?

@olaz

I just started working in the corporate world this summer and feel the same way. I don't mind the actual work sonmuh but I hate the social politics bs, I already feel like I'm in the outsider group because I'm not playing in the fantasy football league lol.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly I can say to my co workers and what I can't, so I don't say much. A lot of the people in my office are openly anti trump- which suprises me as someone higher up could easily have voted for him.

On the positive side, atleast you're far ahead of me saving a wise. If I could go back and do I all over again I would have saved way more when I was younger (still only 25) if I had known what working was like.

Is there any chance of finding a company that will let you work remotely? My plan is to work a few years to get experience, then find a role that will let me work from home 100% of the time. I'm in the tech field though, so this is pretty common.

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Demosthenes
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by Demosthenes » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:28 pm

I had very similar feelings as you THF even before hearing about ERE. Luckily it goes in waves. T9000 is correct that you will eventually find your stride. Everyone will start to look up to you and you'll feel like you are where you belong. And then you look down and see you're still in chains like a sucker and fall back down to the bottom of the roller coaster. Wood is correct that knowing about ERE makes it worse.

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Allagash
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by Allagash » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:10 pm

James_0011 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:46 pm
@alllagash

Did you get rich?
I never quite hit the stock options jackpot I chased in the 90's. Made a great salary in my 20's but blew it all on wine, women, and song.

Jean
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by Jean » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:14 pm

I enjoyed physical work (lumber, agriculture) more than academic work. If you are making good money, stay there until you make plan to kill yourself, then quit.

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BRUTE
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by BRUTE » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:32 pm

quit to execute the plan?

steelerfan
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by steelerfan » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:37 am

Ah, the double edged sword of discovering ERE when you are young. You have endless possibilities to achieve anything you desire but the knowledge you have tortures you when you are starting out with seemingly an endless cascade of days in front of you. I envy you and don’t envy you. I was in no way as knowledgeable or focused as some of you. Still, while I was not exactly frugal, I have simple tastes and am basically antisocial - although most people I know aren’t aware of it. I am after all the commissioner of the office fantasy football league! By the time I found this board, we more or less muddled our way into a decent financial scenario once the kids are on their feet - soon. Having the right spouse had a lot to do with that. I have been looking at the pictures on the cave wall for decades longer than hopefully you will. But still no regrets. That solves nothing other than to drain today of energy.

*Lots* of excellent advice from previous posters. If you make the right moves you can be right where you want in 10 years or less. Save aggressively, but you are only in your twenties for a blink. Try to strike a balance and make more mindful moves than I did. I had fun - but with a plan I could be so much further ahead. Think taxable accounts you can access when FI. I really was at zero other than having a mortgaged house at 30. Think about how much further ahead you will be. Look at every day to work on life skills that will enable you to be better and more resilient. Hard skills are important but really soft skills are what move you up. Be a good listener. Be observant. Keep secrets and be discreet. Help your boss succeed. In short take the time to make yourself unique and indispensable without being a douchey ass-kisser. It is a hard balancing act - that I have not mastered. It pays to be aligned with the discipline of your CEO. Salesmen CEOs run/see things much differently than an Accountant CEOs or Ops/Engineering CEOs. This feature alone will tell you if you are in the ruling tribe. If you are not in the ruling tribe, it is difficult to move too far upward. In that case, consider leaving for a better match. Last thing - do not talk about Fight Club. Do not tell anyone about this place until you walk out the door.

In short, suck it up for a while and take stock of how each month you are growing personally as well as financially. Within a year things will look a lot different - for the better. Unless you let your angst poison the well. I think we all have seen people come here and get bitter. I could name a few around here that have disappeared. Work your plan and thrive. Good luck.

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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by alojz_neckar » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:24 am

I can totally understand you because I hate it from the beginning. It was 1.5 ys _before_ reading ERE.

I hate AC, I hate microfiber in the air, filtered water from machines... not taking colleagues into the account.

I tried a few alternatives. Working in shifts -> it only makes clearer when you return to 9-5 that 9-5 is inhumane. Unfortunately there are not so many well-paying jobs in shifts out there.
Construction works, working in a factory -> same as in an office but for less money.

But writing down the amounts exactly saved month by month might be a good idea.

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BRUTE
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by BRUTE » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:03 pm

not sure if this is possible in every profession, but brute really enjoys some of the creative parts of his job. his colleagues are mostly nice, pleasant, and fun to work with. there is something to be said for finishing a challenging project.

brute doesn't love all of his job, but he really likes at least 50% of it and loves a few things. if that's not the case for TopHatFox, it's going to be difficult to even do 5 years.

classical_Liberal
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by classical_Liberal » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:52 pm

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:39 pm
Obviously I believe the free future will be better in many ways, but that's not an impediment to being happy, content, whatever, now.
Yes, I see your points and they are taken. There is no doubt I am a future oriented person and would greatly benefit, in many aspects of life, from learning to become more present focused. I think the other part of my current dissatisfaction is the amount of energy my 9-5 is taking (ie way too much!). I just don't have the energy to enjoy my free time presently. I'm fully aware FI will not solve any of my problems, what it will do is free up time and energy for me to solve them. My job has really taken a turn for the worse over the past several months and it's time I reevaluate if it's the one I want to keep for several more years to achieve some level of FI. Frankly, I doubt it I'll put up with it much longer. Unfortunately, I designed my situation around this job a little too well and am I'm in the middle an S-curve (from a financial prospective) with this 9-5; golden handcuffs are tough to break. This probably why 7WB5's idea
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:49 pm
if you were tasked with helping to build a stone wall, and you were paid $2 for every stone you put in place, and as soon as you were able to put 100,000 stones in place you would be FI?
is so much more appealing to me today than it was a year ago. No need to stay presently unhappy as payment to future me. Instead of earning $2 per stone, I may cut my rate to $1, but get to enjoy the process of placing each one rather than resenting the existence of the pile of unplaced stones. After all, I've already got a big chunk of the wall built. I may need to take some of my own advice to Olaz and start enjoying the journey again.

classical_Liberal
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by classical_Liberal » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:19 pm

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:39 pm
Maybe a "systems flows standpoint" will help. I hope it does for you. I really don't quite grasp the concept myself. That's on purpose, sorta. In my profession "system" has multiple (though each one precise) meanings, and when people write about systems here it makes my head hurt. I'm maxed out on the number of different ways I can simultaneously think about system theory.
I was thinking about this statement and wanted to respond because I really wanted to clarify to myself what this has meant for me so far in my ERE journey. So perhaps it's more of a personal musing than a response.

Systems flow thought process doesn't have to be theoretical in nature. As a matter of fact, the way I view ERE it's practical and actionable. Once the financial side of FI was somewhat handled from a Boglesheads or MMM perspective. I had the feelings Zalo is talking about in the thread topic(tie in to topic :lol: ). Having a 75% SR, detailed investment plan, reduced expenses, ect I was in a situation which I needed more actionable things to undertake and see results. This is where ERE came in, not just to accelerate FI, but to make it more anti-fragile and the process less of a dull waiting game.

So... as an example, housing. Bogleheads would teach me I could accumulated 250K to pay off my mortgage and another 250K to sustain a WR to cover insurance, taxes and maintenance for life with index investing. A MMM approach may be to downsize to be more efficient; so now I need 150K to pay off mortgage and another 150K to cover expenses on a smaller, more efficient, and less environmentally destructive housing situation. Maybe even start a fun side gig to cover half of the annual maintenance expenses so now I only need 225K. Great! I just cut 200- 275K off of an FI number, but but this is really only a difference of scale.

With ERE I can think of housing completely different. It's something I "need", but I can fulfill that need by parlaying other parts of my life (or interests and skills) into reducing or eliminating the need for capital to provide housing through a self reinforcing system. As a renaissance man, I have a highly varied skill set. For the last few years I've been an RN. I could easily find a housing situation in which I provide a few basic cares, set up medications, ect for an elderly person in exchange for free room and board. I've been in finance and real estate so I could easily find a small multi unit property(2-4 units), slap a 20% down payment (maybe only 30K in capital), live in and manage the property to provide housing for life financed by rent and time spend as a property manager. As a fan of C40's blog and a recent experimenter of traveling and living in a vehicle, I could front 5-10K in capital to buy a more permanent vehicle/RV living situation which would only require a couple hundred dollars a month (maybe 75K in invested capital) to maintain indefinitely. Each of these options can reap other benefits to life as well.

I could list a half dozen more examples of how to make housing work off the top of my head. Now, I wont speak for Jacob, and my understanding of his systems theory and thought processes may still be limited. However, this is how ERE change me and created actionable ways to use and expand my skill set in unconventional ways to create real-life systems. These system potentials (and realities I'm currently utilizing) are anti-fragile because they don't just depend on financial capital or income from employment. My extra financial capital is just a backup in the event of failure of one of the systems or to fund the potential start up costs of making lifestyle change to a different system if the current situation is no longer reinforcing other goals.

Scott 2
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by Scott 2 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:50 am

It's possible the job is a bad fit. There's a million different ways you can earn money. It's not like you need that much of it, or have to get it all up front. Don't anchor on something if you truly hate it. Life is too short.

Funny enough, though, one of the things that keeps me working, is the easy access to a concentrated source of smart people. Once the idiots and assholes are filtered out, there are all sorts of ways to have fun while working. You need to find them. One of my favorite games is to try and figure out someone else's agenda for a meeting, project, promotion, or whatever. Then see how they react when I help them get it. It's more entertaining than being self serving for dollars, and the variance in what people want is fascinating.

I do sometimes wonder, if I'm finding this much enjoyment, am I'm the sociopath making everyone else hate work? Are they all pretending?

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TopHatFox
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by TopHatFox » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:11 pm

Nah, the job's fine. It's teaching me a ton of wealthy people problems, which is/will be me soon. Minus the heavy overhead of course. I've gotten used to the routine by now. Yay~ (y)

IlliniDave
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:16 am

classical_Liberal,
I understand what you are saying re systems, and the only difference between me and a real ERE-er is that I don't worry too much about optimizing wrt to minimizing the role of capital (financial assets). It's a consideration, of course, because it is a finite resource, but it's all part of one palette of tools to me. I don't think of it being "system" stuff except that it is (for myself) or resembles (imperfect understanding of how others do it) an optimization problem. Such a problem requires a parameter to be optimized and a cost function. Money is not one of the things I try to optimize (either accumulating a maximum tally, or minimize the role of) so its use doesn't come with a real high penalty weight. So maybe it's more that I'm just operating under a paradigm that isn't 100% aligned with the "ERE system".

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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by James_0011 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:46 pm

@olaz

Just retire right now: http://mashable.com/2013/11/04/bought-a ... ETDgoojOqW

He bought a 50k apartment and it generates 13k a year from Airbnb.

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TopHatFox
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Re: I'm starting to hate my 9-5?

Post by TopHatFox » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:27 pm

Hah, that's cool. I'm thinking of doing something similar in the coming months!

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