Creative constructed redundant, stable, self-reinforced systems of diverse elements where inflows and outflows ...

[Stahlmann]

... are matched throughout systems.

I've been with you since last year. More on mental level than DIY level.
I get that ERE is possible (and in future I will follow its path). I don't see it through lenses of ,,he must eat lentils and live under the bridge".

But I am still curious how I can live meaningful life on low-(/medium-)earnings and (medium/)high savings (let's make this topic more difficult, but more robust in case of attacks from nay-sayers).

I mean I would appreciate answers on ,,mechanic level" (,,I had done X it led to Y and I finally need to deal with Z") rather than ,,that's about saving 80% of your net income and doing anything you want to do".

Journals tend to be more about numbers (or they show whole path, but I am looking for 1-2 paragraph summary)
or maybe let's treat this topic as a place where active members can share their strategies in a nutshell.

Some(/sample) questions to answer:
1. How have you unprogrammed from ,,work-buy-die" culture?
a) How about peer pressure? I think it will be tough to say ,,I am going to buy car next month" for the next 10 years in workplace.
b) How have you avoided evangelisation of unaware consumers?
2. What is one thing you do totally different than others? (question from blog post )
3. How have you managed ,,big expenses in life" (wedding-housing-kids in numbers)? (just to tough up this topic)
4. Some days ago somebody mentioned there people who travel constantly through America with 6k $/yr budget. Any other fancy solutions like that?
5. How about having fancy hobby? Has anyone tried jacob's method of joing ,,cool dudes"?
6. (For advanced in their path) What is overlooked by beginners when they start their journey?
a) jacob mentioned that it would be possible [to FIRE] in 3-5 years even with low earnings. Seems like selling tactic!
b) biggest mistakes to avoid?
7. (For advanced in their path) How about ERE without investing? Or maybe rephrased: How much have you ,,earned" with stock market? I mean: year 2000 - 100k NW; year 2010 - 150k NW)
8. (For advanced in their path and who rejected material world) Wouldn't it be better to join monastery or build some wood cabin in forest and live there?
9. How to outsource costs of travel on employer? (I mean for example moving Europe<->USA)
10. How have you solved major f*ck-ups with your health without breaking the bank?
11. How do you enjoy the ride?

If topic was considered there previously, please share link with me (but I mean in more ,,summary" manner or ,,mechanic" level) . Thanks in advance.

[Ego]

But I am still curious how I can live meaningful life on low-(/medium-)earnings and (medium/)high savings.

It depends on what you mean by a meaningful life. Most of us had to live a little before we realized that the things that make life meaningful are not very expensive and often cost no money at all. That doesn't mean they are free. Money is only one form of wealth. Time is another.

For me, when I realized that my savings was actually present-me buying time for future-me... that's when I really started to get serious. I believe that's the reason so many get serious about health and wealth simultaneously. My focus on health today is an attempt to buy future-me high quality time.

[C40]

* confused blank stare *

[The Old Man]

#10 Health: In theory, this is done through health insurance.

#1 Culture: My living style has moved in the direction of minimalism. A side effect of a minimalistic life style is that it is effortless to save money. As far as peer pressure it is only an issue if you make it. I don't have a car. For people that ask why, I say it is for environmental reasons. As far as my finances, no one knows anything as a I practice stealth wealth.

#7 Investing: In my youth I was very aggressive in my investments. Lost quite a lot. These days I am in index funds and CDs. Boring, but it works.

In general, you have to live your life in a strategic fashion. You review your current expenses and decide which provides limited value. You balance what you hope to be doing in the future with the present. There is a lot of strategic analysis. In my case, I was already leaning minimalist and decided to become a stronger minimalist. My savings rate fell out as a result.

[Dragline]

The terse and the sardonic:

1. Stop the buying part.
(a) Get new peers. Or no peers.
(b) Never try to teach pigs to sing. Wastes your time and annoys the pig.

2. I have no idea. Probably nothing. Uniqueness for uniqueness-sake is over-rated and not unique. Almost everything you do, think and desire is copied from someone else, so stop kidding yourself. And maybe stop doing, thinking and desiring those things unless you have a really good reason.

3. I paid for them.

4. No. But been there and done that. Not hard with a tent and some cooking implements.

5. No.

6. It's a journey. Not a destination. La-la-la-la-la.
(a) It is. But the more you make, the more you can screw up and still get there.
(b) See 1(a). And remember family are your first "peers".

7. There are other investments besides the stock market. Learn about them.

8. Maybe. Did anyone ever tell you that you ask too many questions? Contemplate the sound of one hand clapping for a year in silence and then tell us what you learned.

9. Pick an employer that needs you in that location and have the skills to fit the bill. I see this all the time. But you are thinking the wrong direction. The right way has been coming to the USA on an H1-B visa. Got the right stuff and come on in. Where it's at, baby.

10. Yes. Keep weight in check. Avoid processed and fried food. Get regular check-ups and keep records for changes in vitals. Get educated and experiment with diet and exercise and set new goals and ideas every year. And have insurance for catastrophic events. This is ultimately more important than any financial machinations, unless you need the financing to do the foregoing.

11. With humor, relationships, and breaking rule 10 on and off. And having a shitload of assets in reserve by corralling 1-7. Especially that really stupid one about being unique, which is only the mimetic reverse of item 1(a).

Yeah. That's it.

[BRUTE]

the programming initially didn't work because brute's hardware was broken. at one point brute developed something of a resistance to programming of all sorts. through a series of coincidences, brute has never been very attached to life or reality.

truthfully, it's just coincidence. brute is anti-social, lazy, and gets bored quickly. these qualities don't exactly help lead a mainstream lifestyle.

[James_0011]

+1 for anti social and easily bored

[BRUTE]

James_0011 will make an excellent programmer

[Toska2]

My emotional highs and lows have been muted. This has been done systematically by having "successes" and "failures" turn out ok. It has caused seemingly random actions because I have empirical evidence that 2 years from now I will feel different about it or not care.

Kinda like if BRUTE was a photon; experiencing an individual packet of first and third person. OK I made that up but it hedonistically entertained me.

[enigmaT120]

I'm antisocial and very difficult to bore. But programming did start to bore me.

[Stahlmann]

Well, I started to reread blog entries to ,,program" myself. (before I created first post).
And there is this idea that jacob thinks he would be able to retire in 3-4 which seems pretty hardcore.

My journey towards financial independence was not always with financial independence in mind per se. Had that been my sole goal all a long I would have done things differently and probably faster e.g. 3-4 years instead of 5. If I had a six figure income, which I never had, I would be able to do it in 2 or 3 years. However, that’s the thing. As we gain in knowledge and wisdom our priorities change as that which was once important becomes less important as things are put in a different and hopefully bigger perspective.

(http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i ... art-i.html).

I get it. He would maximize savings (up to 85-90% ). But... How? 0,15*3000=450$/month. Or... what are assumptions/hacks to that?

For example, I move to new place near work and I need to find cheap housing from start, because I would blow my montly budget easily if I chose easy way.

That is why I started this topic (and I stole one row from Wheaton's scale for sake of the topic name).

Any insights on such idea?


There is better gist of I wanted to share with you in this (my) topic:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8526

I hope everything is more clear now.

[steveo73]

Some(/sample) questions to answer:
1. How have you unprogrammed from ,,work-buy-die" culture?
a) How about peer pressure? I think it will be tough to say ,,I am going to buy car next month" for the next 10 years in workplace.
b) How have you avoided evangelisation of unaware consumers?
2. What is one thing you do totally different than others? (question from blog post )
3. How have you managed ,,big expenses in life" (wedding-housing-kids in numbers)? (just to tough up this topic)
4. Some days ago somebody mentioned there people who travel constantly through America with 6k $/yr budget. Any other fancy solutions like that?
5. How about having fancy hobby? Has anyone tried jacob's method of joing ,,cool dudes"?
6. (For advanced in their path) What is overlooked by beginners when they start their journey?
a) jacob mentioned that it would be possible [to FIRE] in 3-5 years even with low earnings. Seems like selling tactic!
b) biggest mistakes to avoid?
7. (For advanced in their path) How about ERE without investing? Or maybe rephrased: How much have you ,,earned" with stock market? I mean: year 2000 - 100k NW; year 2010 - 150k NW)
8. (For advanced in their path and who rejected material world) Wouldn't it be better to join monastery or build some wood cabin in forest and live there?
9. How to outsource costs of travel on employer? (I mean for example moving Europe<->USA)
10. How have you solved major f*ck-ups with your health without breaking the bank?
11. How do you enjoy the ride?

I think the first question is the big one. For me personally I was always frugal and then I earnt to me a of money plus I had a massive mortgage and at that point I would spend some more money because my income was in my opinion large and the mortgage would take so long to pay off I just didn't really see an end point. Once I realised how to obtain FIRE and that it was achievable I just went back to spending how I would spend when I had very little money.

One additional point is that I've studied a fair bit of philosophy and in particular the philosophy of happiness. I don't believe that stuff leads to happiness. I continue to read books on happiness or different philosophies. I also stay well clear of any pop psychology stuff that tends to state that more money -> more job achievements -> more stuff = more happiness.

I don't really care about peer pressure. I just ignore it.

I don't do much totally different to others. We don't travel really at all. I am just finishing 6 weeks holiday. We spent the whole time at home.

I have 3 kids and I'm married. I had a big wedding however compared to other people it was probably on the lower side of expenses. I would never have a wedding like that again though. Expenses for kids simply are what they are. I don't spend excessively but I have to spend money on my kids. I reckon they cost an extra $10k per year.

I don't have any fancy hobbies. I have a brown belt in jiu-jitsu, I play guitar (only recently) and I read a lot.

I feel that I'm advanced in the path. I don't think we overlooked anything. It's just about saving money. I live in Australia and we have 3 kids. There is no way we could become FI in 3-5 years. I have 3 kids and I cannot go and live in the woods.

Health costs are tough. My shoulder is fucked at this point. I am not going to a surgeon because it will cost a fortune. I'll try and rehab it myself and have some time off wrestling.

I love my life. Money doesn't really interest me. In stating that I am completely sick of work and I have 3-5 years of work left. I can't wait to retire.

[Fish]

I had a massive mortgage and at that point I would spend some more money because my income was in my opinion large and the mortgage would take so long to pay off I just didn't really see an end point.

Was in a similar situation in the past. Interestingly, it was only once I was aware of the possibility of FIRE (25-33x operating expenses + capital buy-in) that it even seemed feasible to pay off the mortgage in fewer than 15 years. I wonder if this change in perception is related to the theme of the "Impossible is Easy" blogpost where those that believe an "impossible" goal is possible start thinking of merely "difficult" goals as easy by comparison.

[steveo73]

I had a massive mortgage and at that point I would spend some more money because my income was in my opinion large and the mortgage would take so long to pay off I just didn't really see an end point.

Was in a similar situation in the past. Interestingly, it was only once I was aware of the possibility of FIRE (25-33x operating expenses + capital buy-in) that it even seemed feasible to pay off the mortgage in fewer than 15 years. I wonder if this change in perception is related to the theme of the "Impossible is Easy" blogpost where those that believe an "impossible" goal is possible start thinking of merely "difficult" goals as easy by comparison.

I remember hating my mortgage but it also seemed so large that paying it off was going to take years. It also didn't have a payoff. FI has a massive pay off in that you don't have to work.

[Fish]

@steveo73: Agreed, the insidious thing about debt is the benefits are frontloaded so there isn't as much motivation to pay it off.

However, with a FIRE mindset the benefits of consumption smoothing seem limited relative to the obligations that debt entails. Another perspective shift.

[Campitor]

Some(/sample) questions to answer:
1. How have you unprogrammed from ,,work-buy-die" culture?
a) How about peer pressure? I think it will be tough to say ,,I am going to buy car next month" for the next 10 years in workplace.
b) How have you avoided evangelisation of unaware consumers?
2. What is one thing you do totally different than others? (question from blog post )
3. How have you managed ,,big expenses in life" (wedding-housing-kids in numbers)? (just to tough up this topic)
4. Some days ago somebody mentioned there people who travel constantly through America with 6k $/yr budget. Any other fancy solutions like that?
5. How about having fancy hobby? Has anyone tried jacob's method of joing ,,cool dudes"?
6. (For advanced in their path) What is overlooked by beginners when they start their journey?
a) jacob mentioned that it would be possible [to FIRE] in 3-5 years even with low earnings. Seems like selling tactic!
b) biggest mistakes to avoid?
7. (For advanced in their path) How about ERE without investing? Or maybe rephrased: How much have you ,,earned" with stock market? I mean: year 2000 - 100k NW; year 2010 - 150k NW)
8. (For advanced in their path and who rejected material world) Wouldn't it be better to join monastery or build some wood cabin in forest and live there?
9. How to outsource costs of travel on employer? (I mean for example moving Europe<->USA)
10. How have you solved major f*ck-ups with your health without breaking the bank?
11. How do you enjoy the ride?

If topic was considered there previously, please share link with me (but I mean in more ,,summary" manner or ,,mechanic" level) . Thanks in advance.

1. I seek experiences/laughter instead of money/goods. Oddly this had led to more success and money which I throw in the bank instead of a shiny new car or the gadget-of-the-month.
1a. Don't care about what other people think in regards to finances/material possessions and eventually they will stop asking and just accept you as you are or ignore you.
1b. See my first response before 1a.
2. I don't buy a new car every 2 years and I don't fly to exotic locations just to fly to exotic locations.
3. My wedding cost less than 3 thousand dollars - easy to do if you aren't trying to emulate the rich and famous. The food was good, the music was great, and everyone had a good time. Kids aren't expensive if you show them the value of experiences/laughter over materialism and its amazing how much money you have for your kids when you're not buying a new car every 2 years or the gadget-of-the-month.
4. You're only limited by your creativity and willingness to put in some sweat equity. Check out this site for some ideas: http://www.tosimplify.net/
5. I think you mean expensive hobby. Live within your means and adopt a hobby that corresponds to that goal. Stop thinking you're being deprived if your earning potential prohibits you from building a formula-one race car and driving it in the Indy 500 as your hobby - there are plenty of interesting hobbies that don't require a fortune - your only limited by your imagination and the mental prison you've built.
6. The power of frugality - it's not what you earn but what you save. And compounded interest - it's truly amazing.
7. No comment. =)
8. You can still reject the material world and live in a city - no need to live like St. Francis of Assisi or retreat to the Alaskan wilderness a la Richard Proenneke.
9. Work for a company that requires you to travel - computer consulting for example.
10. Insurance, eating healthy, reducing stress via laughter, friendship, meditation, and having a positive outlook.
11. Eating healthy, laughter, friendship, meditation, and having a positive outlook. Read Seneca's shortness of life if you need help with this: http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/ ... rev_e.html.