The ERE Wheaton Scale

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
FBeyer
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by FBeyer »

Dragline wrote:Except for the amps that go to 11. Those are definitely god-like. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o
I've NEVER seen that clip before. Yes, honestly, I'm that adverse to television.
+1 culture for me.

Thank you!



---------------

All this talk of ecology and permaculture around ERE has made me want to study it. I know F*** all about nature, let loose in the wild I'd poison myself within hours. Not exaggerating here I think these look delicious:
Image
Alas; not for consumption.

...
(edited out).

Fuck it, I'll leave this topic alone. Someone send me a PM with the final score when you're done. ;)

ThisDinosaur
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Thanks 7W5 . Since we understand each other, I must be only two levels behind you!

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@ThisDinosaur: Fish of a feather scale together.

MZMpac
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by MZMpac »

A better way to illustrate this may be to use a horizontal spectrum rather than discrete levels.

A 1-10 style table or chart just reeks of pretense and elitism. Essentially "look how big my ERE penis is". I know it's just for fun/illustration but it wont be interpreted that way.

Fish
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Fish »


MZMpac
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by MZMpac »

A problem with very intelligent individuals is they often lack the ability to connect with others in a meaningful way. They cant meet people where they are.

When a lack of understanding is evident, they blame it on the recipient, rather than examine their delivery. They simply cannot fathom how or why their delivery wasnt clear. It has to be a deficit of understanding.

And often it is. But as the person delivering an idea or concept formed from higher thought processes, the burden is on you to make your concept accessible to others. Not everyone will get it, sure, but not everyone will be able to understand it in the format it is presented. Even the most complex ideas and theories can be understood by most people of above-average intelligence, they just need to find the right perspective of the material.

This ability to perceive how others understand things and help them find this perspective is what makes a great teacher.

jacob
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

@Fish - Ha! I see this is a recurring issue. One of the links from one of those threads is really good.
https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/20 ... xcellence/

vezkor
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by vezkor »

@Jacob

as somebody who jumped into the ERE culture from a level 0 (possible -1) upbringing, I can confirm that it IS possible to learn from people vastly advanced along the spectrum compared to yourself if you're:

1. Willing to constantly question your own past beliefs and humbly submit to new (advanced/better) information and
2. Act upon the better solution that has been brought to your attention through 1. for the sake of reinforcing its' validity in your own life

It's very uncomfortable... and it puts massive strain on pre-existing relationships with friends and family (because you're blasting the status quo to smithereens) in my experience, but it's worth it to take the indirect criticism delivered by the book, blog and forums as a challenge to change for the better. Only by starting with "Okay, I have a college degree and I know absolutely nothing about how to live an efficient life" have I managed to make any progress at all.

I'm still climbing out of the student debt hole, but I stopped digging in 2014 and I've spent the last 2.7 years reading everything I can find that you, MMM and Warren Buffet have ever written about frugality, efficiency and passive income generation. My savings rate has been 68% throughout this time period, averaged, and I am really pushing to get it to 75%. Thankfully, my wife is on board with this goal.

I read ERE, then I read it again and it's still delivering improvements to my mental framework. It's all really just about being happy, ultimately... it seems that people (and BRUTE) drawn to this forum derive an unusual amount of happiness from having the freedom to choose how they spend their time, rather than have somebody else choose for them. Since I am rather extreme in this regard: ERE/FIRE makes MUCH more sense to me than working for 40+ years and then sitting around waiting to die like most do.

BRUTE
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by BRUTE »

MZMpac wrote:A problem with very intelligent individuals is they often lack the ability to connect with others in a meaningful way. They cant meet people where they are.
brute isn't sure he would label this "intelligent". maybe "bad communication skills" is a better term?

Fish
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Fish »

Since the jacob-table is struggling so much on its home turf, perhaps it’s time to sacrifice content to improve comprehension. This is a proposed "mass market" version. Leaving off the FIRE and travel aspects somewhat defeats the purpose of the scale but those are also the points that invite confusion and unintended self-measurement.

As this is already being perceived as an exercise in elitism, we should be helpful and continue compiling a list of resources appropriate to each level, building on the suggestions provided on pages 1-3 of this thread.

View hi-res version of image
Image

FBeyer
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by FBeyer »

I can't say why, but I like that presentation quite a lot, with one caveat: The levels are independent of actual nominal wealth. It's not stated explicitly, but I think, for some reason, that it bears mentioning.
The vast majority of recipients are: How many millions do I need to retire, kind of people, and those people will focus on net worth, not on the attitude towards money.

The levels only become clear as soon as someone realizes that a burger flipper and a real estate magnate can both operate at the same level if their attitude to money is exactly the same.

The gains from your attitude multiplies with your net worth, but that is besides the point for the sake of discussing a personal finance scale.

Otherwise, all those pretty colors makes the message go down quite well. Either you've done some magic to the presentation or I have changed my feelings about the subject during the last couple of weeks ;)

FBeyer
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by FBeyer »

Oh, one more: Good credit score is such a US centric observation. When detailing the levels of a philosophy possible anachronisms and geocentric observations are best avoided.

If ERE had its base on Hawaii, putting: 'Builds a home away from active volcanoes' as part of responsible money management would seem weird to the rest of the world.

jacob
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

Fish wrote: As this is already being perceived as an exercise in elitism, we should be helpful and continue compiling a list of resources appropriate to each level, building on the suggestions provided on pages 1-3 of this thread.
Scarcity:
https://www.amazon.com/Total-Money-Make ... 595555277/
https://www.amazon.com/You-Need-Budget- ... 46353437X/

Accumulate:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761147489/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594482241/ ?

Exponential growth:
https://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Millio ... 767923820/ ?

Embracing efficiency:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589795474/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375752250/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1895629683/

Optimization:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0767926951/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1413307051/

Yields and flows:
https://www.amazon.com/Your-Money-Life- ... 143115766/

Systems theory:
https://www.amazon.com/Early-Retirement ... 45360121X/
https://www.amazon.com/Images-Organizat ... 1412939798

One feature of this progression which isn't supported/suggested by this quick list is that the amount of study needed to fully appreciate the next step grows super-linearly. I think it's a valid approach to start adding other books to the list as a kind of parallel track. For example, around the efficiency and optimization levels, one can start introducing minimalism and simple living. Around yields and flows and systems theory, permaculture as well as advanced management texts seem useful in a way that they don't without the technical insights developed in the earlier stages.

The list also need some purely technical books e.g. what 401k matching means, how the tax system works, ... I just suffered through a slew of ignorant complaints on a recent extreme early retirement post where it was quite obvious that the complaints were rooted in a lack of even rudimentary understanding of tax-vehicles and compound growth (and in some cases, simple multiplication). E.g. demonstrating Dreyfus-1 thinking where the article is just compared to the various factoids they've picked up here and there, e.g. "must have million dollars", "can only save the 5% match in a 401", ...

Lucky C
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Lucky C »

I believe it is more appropriate to stick to a paragraph description for each level than to use a table.

Benefits of paragraph format:
- No limits to length of descriptions / resolves issue of descriptions being so terse that they may be unclear to some readers
- Freedom to include descriptors/examples appropriate for one level and not another (can be more creative with explaining than allowed by a rigid table)
- Easier to edit text / not converting text to an image
- Can include resource links bulleted under each paragraph
- Numerical comparisons (typical savings rates or spending levels) could be added separately as a chart, which could aid in visualizing the information
- Maybe better understanding from reading the descriptions in a level-by-level progression rather than darting around the info in a table?

The main benefit of keeping it in a table is direct comparison of the levels in a given column. I don't think that is necessary as hopefully a reader would read through everything and not forget what they read a couple of paragraphs ago. However, a compromise would be to bulletize each description, like so:

1. Scarcity: Living paycheck to paycheck, with no emergency money. No plans for retirement...
- Savings rate: 0%
- Typical spending: $48k (US median)

And so on.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Fish: Nice!

I just started reading "Thinking in Systems: A Primer" by Donella H. Meadows, the author of "The Limits to Growth." Highly recommend to anyone who is trying to integrate various realms of lifestyle such as ERE, permaculture and polyamory (or any other complex social web.) If I had happened upon this book earlier, I might have been spared the fate of hearing myself say things such as "You are not like a tree in my garden. You are an energy vector like the wind." and would not have been so troubled to sort out the differences between gold, money and potatoes.

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Stahlmann
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Stahlmann »

Can anyone explain me what does mean taking off for BLM land for free? I am not US guy.

theanimal
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by theanimal »

Stahlmann wrote:Can anyone explain me what does mean taking off for BLM land for free? I am not US guy.
BLM= Bureau of Land Management. They manage public lands across the United States, mainly in the West. You are allowed to camp on BLM land for free for up to 14 days. It is a popular option for many van dwellers looking for free campsites/spots to sleep.

BRUTE
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by BRUTE »

is it 14 days in the same spot, or 14 days for any BLM land? i.e. could brute indefinitely move around in BLM land or would he have to leave?

jacob
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

Same spot.

Jean
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Jean »

Same spot on the same year, so you need to use at least 22 different sport.

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