The ERE Wheaton Scale

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BRUTE
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:Also, as noted approximately 500 times above, the point of the Wheaton scale or the table in this thread is not to rank people according to 'bestness' but to figure out how to communicate with others (friends and family) who are far from being on the same page.
just a hypothetical thought experiment: if brute told jacob something 500 times, and jacob still didn't "get it", should brute try saying it some more? or is it a sign that the message might not be formulated well?

brute thinks jacob thinks the Wheaton scale is amazing (and it is) and wants to make his own. in this, he might be overlooking that the Wheaton scale, and especially the infographic, suffers terribly from some problems in its intended goal (if this goal is the same as what jacob is describing).

Wheaton's infographic portrays level 8, Sepp Holzer, as literally a saint-type or god-like figure on a mountain top who basks in his own greatness, apparently having traveled there on a rainbow. the level 0 human is portrayed as living in a barren wasteland.

as brute said before, if the goal is to communicate well to ERE newbies at the appropriate step, this is a terrible medium to portray that. what is conveys very well is the idea that there is a long road, and different humans are at different levels, but higher is clearly better.

the very fact that all 8 levels are on the scale/table is a bad idea for the intended audience. it conveys that "if a human goes down this road, he'll end up living in an RV, eating only lentils, living below the poverty line" (which is all a level 1-3 can probably gather from seeing a description of a level 7-8). the level 1-3 should only see levels 3-5. unless this is a kind of "behind the scenes manual" that jacob will look things up in, but never show to the target audience, in which case something like the wiki manual suggested by brute earlier might be more useful than a table.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by ThisDinosaur »

I never meant to imply 'bestness' with my suggestion. But, brute's right, as usual, that it is heavily implied by both the source material and Jacob table. Its also worth noting that maybe the reason people two levels away look 'crazy,' or whatever, is not because they are so advanced, but that others on the path can't imagine even wanting that lifestyle. If ERE represent a "city center," then some people may be totally content living in the suburbs, watching cable. IlliniDave nailed it when he said he was content using money indefinitely, now that he has enough.

Tailoring your advice to somebody's level is a worthy goal, though. Sometimes, if you help people specify their objective, the advice becomes obvious. The answer to "what should I do?" can be "well, what do you want?"

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

Presented tounge-in-cheek and with irony :mrgreen: Probably also applies to the entire latticework of models/summaries with appropriate vernacular.

Image

ThisDinosaur
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Genuinely curious how long you spent on that.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

About 30-45 mins which I now realize I'll never get back :? :) Not exactly a chart/pic/upload whiz here. (This project required three different pieces of software, 4 tabs, and 2 man pages, but at least no animals were hurt during the filming.)

PS: I suppose if this prevents just one instance of this problem, it was time well spent. But it won't and it wasn't.

PPS: 5 years ago this would/could have been a blog post :-P

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by BRUTE »

skilled communicator: maybe information should be presented in a way conducive to understanding the intended message.
physicist: people who can't read the physicist's mind are dumb. tables are turing complete, therefore everything should be a table.

edit: took brute about 30s to create, maybe free from text IS the better medium?

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

BRUTE wrote:skilled communicator: maybe information should be presented in a way conducive to understanding the intended message.
Why the Wheaton scale was invented.
BRUTE wrote:physicist: people who can't read the physicist's mind are dumb. tables are turing complete, therefore everything should be a table.
Why physicists eventually (after some 5 pages on the ERE forums) learn that they should apply Wheaton tables to communicate selectively.

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Ego
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Ego »

A Wheaton level three walks into a bar with a hot little Wheaton level six on his arm. The bar is empty except for the bartender, who also happens to be Albert Einstein. Down at the end of the bar Einstein is having a serious conversation with what appears to be an empty bar stool.

Six sets her purse on the bar, nudges Three in the ribs then winks and says, "Hey Einstein, give Heisenberg a rest and get us a few drinks."

Einstein laughs. Six laughs. Three looks confused.

Einstein shuffles down the bar and smiles at Six in a grandfatherly way as he points to Three and says,........... what?

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by black_son_of_gray »

The accumulated posts in this thread only serve to prove Jacob's OP point that ideas need to be matched to an individual's style of thinking.
Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Einstein says "You. Take that one home now. She's only 15, and you'll get arrested."

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Ego
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Ego »

Image

Feynman also said something similar.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Rich ... hing_quote

Feynman was a truly great teacher. He prided himself on being able to devise ways to explain even the most profound ideas to beginning students. Once, I said to him, "Dick, explain to me, so that I can understand it, why spin one-half particles obey Fermi-Dirac statistics." Sizing up his audience perfectly, Feynman said, "I'll prepare a freshman lecture on it." But he came back a few days later to say, "I couldn't do it. I couldn't reduce it to the freshman level. That means we don't really understand it."
black_son_of_gray wrote:The accumulated posts in this thread only serve to prove Jacob's OP point that ideas need to be matched to an individual's style of thinking.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
I have a friend who has been a first-grade teacher for almost thirty years. A few weeks ago we were talking about the pygmalion effect. She talked with great passion (as only a first-grade teacher can) about the importance of speaking above her students level of understanding. She uses big words. She speaks to them as if she expects them to understand. Their little brains work out the pieces they don't quite grasp.

We don't teach first graders astrophysics for a reason. But some first graders can understand astrophysics and for those kids the term first-grader harms them more than it helps. They may need the math of a high schooler, the language of a fifth grader, the socialization of a first grader and the astrophysics of a undergrad. Putting them in any one of those boxes does them more harm than good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvMiXk2gGSk

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by BRUTE »

brute knew a 1st grade teacher that had been teaching for so long, he could no longer speak to other humans in ways appropriate for them. all he could do was speak like he was speaking with 1st graders. he treated his wife like a 1st grader, he treated brute like a 1st grader, and everybody else, too.

good times.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote: Feynman was a truly great teacher. He prided himself on being able to devise ways to explain even the most profound ideas to beginning students. Once, I said to him, "Dick, explain to me, so that I can understand it, why spin one-half particles obey Fermi-Dirac statistics." Sizing up his audience perfectly, Feynman said, "I'll prepare a freshman lecture on it." But he came back a few days later to say, "I couldn't do it. I couldn't reduce it to the freshman level. That means we don't really understand it."
However!

What's interesting here is that Feynman drew his demarcator of "our" understanding at the freshman level. Why not the 9th grade level? Or the 3rd grade? Or pre-school?

Does it also stand to reason that if Feynman or Einstein couldn't explain force equals mass times acceleration to a 1st grader, then we don't really understand Newton's second law? If we can't explain how to count to 100 to the average 2-year old, then we don't understand counting because we can't explain counting "simply" enough. I don't think so.

To me the choice of the freshman demarcation for statistical physics strongly suggest that pedagogical reach between the teacher and the student has real limits. It also suggests that the inability to simplify concepts also has limits because some subjects can't be simplified indefinitely (all the way down to two year olds). A great teacher like Feynman had a bigger pedagogical reach whereas your average professor is satisfied if he can explain statistical physics to "sophomorons" (where this subject is usually taught AFTER students have learned quantum mechanics, something freshmen usually do not know very much about). The measure of that pedagogical reach in the intellectual domain is described by the Wheaton scale. For content of a given complexity, there's a pedagogical range where this content can be explained. Having a better understanding or being a better teacher increases the range, but outside that range, it is hopeless.

If one accepts that subjects have a range and that teachers have a range, it explains why we have first grade teachers and not university professors teach 1st graders and vice versa. It also explains why 1st graders are taught 1st grade topics. When I was in 1st grade, I was subjected to a horrible pedagogical experiment called "New Math" which was the mathematical analogy to trying to construct a building by starting with the roof presuming that it would somehow hold itself up in mid-air.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math

The attempt was to teach the fundamentals of abstract set theory (usually a subject reserved for 2 and 3+ year college students, and for good reasons, as it was eventually realized) so we talked about open and closed sets, subsets, interactions, and unions. There were two problems with this approach. The first problem was that set theory is not really in any way relateable to the experience (practical and theoretical) of 1st graders. Talking about lions and monkeys on a velcro board and calling the set a fence which could be open or closed didn't help a lot. The teachers were relatively clueless as well, university level math not being something they had ever studied.

Here's Feynman on New Math:
Feynman wrote: If we would like to, we can and do say, 'The answer is a whole number less than 9 and bigger than 6,' but we do not have to say, 'The answer is a member of the set which is the intersection of the set of those numbers which are larger than 6 and the set of numbers which are smaller than 9' ... In the 'new' mathematics, then, first there must be freedom of thought; second, we do not want to teach just words; and third, subjects should not be introduced without explaining the purpose or reason, or without giving any way in which the material could be really used to discover something interesting. I don't think it is worth while teaching such material.
I don't think first graders make for a good analogy for all grades of teaching nor for all concepts. You can't teach Fermi-Dirac statistics to freshmen using big words and expect their little brains to work out the details. It's cute when kids use big words, but it's also clear (like from the video) that their understanding is no deeper than a few sentences in a dictionary. This video is mainly cute because you're hearing what's pretty much the average level of adult comprehension when it comes to the universe coming out of the mouth of a 9-year old. On an absolute scale of knowledge, it's not remarkable.

I don't think kids have a problem with being put in boxes (or grades). I think it's the adults who have problems insofar they're put in boxes if they feel those boxes are below their "paygrade". Most adults have an understanding of the Earth and its relation to the galaxy which is slightly worse than that 9-year old. It's when we take those adults and tell them that their functional literacy or understanding of the universe corresponds to a 4th grade level that they get pissy and start questioning the veracity of the valuation scheme rather than themselves.

Kids are better accepting that they might not know everything or indeed that they might know very little without feeling bad about it. Adults, on the other hand, are better at rationalizing why something is useless or wrong insofar they don't understand it or don't get the expected results.

So, here's another issue.

In the US 42% of all adults do not believe in evolution. If we take Einstein literally, this should be a problem of not being able explain evolution simply. However, basic evolution is pretty damn simple to explain. It's not that those 42% can't understand evolution, rather it's that they won't understand it. Unlike 1st graders who will are eager to fill in blanks, these creationists will actively resist knowledge they disagree with or which doesn't fit into their world-view.

In conclusion, what I found remarkable about this thread to the point it almost blows my mind is not the range of viewpoints when it comes to ERE (extreme frugality, nomadism, 100% self-sufficient, ... ), that has happened before in another long and similar thread about how "you" see ERE: Do you really understand ERE?. A wide range was to be expected.

What I find remarkable is that not only did a couple of people INSTANTLY grasp the Wheaton table concept, but (and that's the remarkable part) they understood it 100% or one-to-one exactly how I see it from Day One without any need for further clarification or further explanation.

(It was as if you go to random country and speak a few words in English and discover to your surprise that someone else seemingly possesses a full and fluent vocabulary of English despite the fact you only spoke a few words "How are you?" and at no point used the assistance of a dictionary of a universal translator. That obviously can't be random and the only explanation is that there are people out there who already speak English just as you do without any of you having to spend any time elaborating on a grammar or a vocabulary. Here "speaking English" is the metaphorical analogue for "Wheaton table". It's pretty obvious that some clearly does speak the language of Wheaton and tables well enough already so that only a few words is needed to make the [Vulcan Mind Meld] connection.)

What's equally remarkable is that everybody who didn't instantly grasp it immediately haven't budged a millimeter. In the metaphorical sense, they refuse the acknowledge the existence of the "Wheaton table" language despite it being able serve as a perfect communication line (language that describes the pedagogical challenge) between a few people. Now, if it had required a development of a grammar and a vocabulary, I could see why some would argue that neither is perfect. However, in this case it seems that for some it was already perfect from the get go.

PS:

Fun story: In grad school, I actually figured out a simple explanation [of Fermi-Dirac statistics] and started using it as the main ingredient in my conference talks. It landed me a couple of invitations to present at general colloquia from people (full professors) who came up after my talk(s) saying it was the clearest presentation they'd ever seen. I even gave a two hour long lecture at a summer school (where you drag a bunch of phd students to some maintain top and have some experts give them insight). Usually this "honor" (extra work load, really) is reserved for senior scientists. Certainly not grad students. => Just because one of the demi-gods of physics can't do it in a couple of days, it doesn't mean that some phd student can't do it in a few weeks. (PS: I might have cheated slightly. Before this, I spent a few months seriously thinking about and writing an article about thermodynamics for the "intelligent layman". You can read the result here.)

(*) My field had to do with the behavior of a fully ionized gas on neutron stars and thus involved both electrons (Fermi-Dirac distributed) and atomic nuclei (Boltzmann distributed) and how the different distributions would lead to explosion by compression.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:What's equally remarkable is that everybody who didn't instantly grasp it immediately haven't budged a millimeter. In the metaphorical sense, they refuse the acknowledge the existence of the "Wheaton table" language despite it being able serve as a perfect communication line (language that describes the pedagogical challenge) between a few people.
this is where jacob seems to misunderstand.

so far, nobody has been refusing to acknowledge the existence of the jacob table language.

to take over jacob's analogy: jacob has traveled to another country (let's say France), and has started speaking English. incidentally, a few of the humans in the room spoke English - and immediately understood him. also incidentally, other humans in the room did not speak English, and haven't understood a word.

now some of the individuals that speak some English are trying to convince jacob that to reach the non-English speaking humans, he should try speaking French to them. this might involve learning French, or at least translating his intent into French.

but instead, jacob claims the existing English speakers as examples that his "language" is already "able [to] serve as a perfect communication line [..] between a few people".

it's possible to express pretty much anything in a table. that doesn't mean it's the best way to express everything. if the target audience needs to be explained things about the table that are not inherent in its visual structure (different columns have different levels of importance, some are only suggestions, ..), then the understanding depends on how much the target audience already thinks in jacob's mental models. since the whole point of this exercise seems to be to find the level of communication appropriate to an audience which is NOT already "jacob-like" in its thinking, this seems like an absurd argument to brute.

it's like walking into a bar in France and claiming that learning French is unnecessary, because some in that bar speak English, which proves that English is a good enough language to talk to humans, and that the French-speaking humans are wrong.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

I explicitly acknowledged that a table isn't the best way to communicate pedagogical distance already. Of course I did that in a table, ironically ;-)

The most important lesson I've learned from this thread by far is that I can't put the jacob-table on the blog lest it be misunderstood. In the future I will only share it with those who know the secret handshake.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
What I find remarkable is that not only did a couple of people INSTANTLY grasp the Wheaton table concept, but (and that's the remarkable part) they understood it 100% or one-to-one exactly how I see it from Day One without any need for further clarification or further explanation.

........

What's equally remarkable is that everybody who didn't instantly grasp it immediately haven't budged a millimeter. In the metaphorical sense, they refuse the acknowledge the existence of the "Wheaton table" language despite it being able serve as a perfect communication line (language that describes the pedagogical challenge) between a few people. Now, if it had required a development of a grammar and a vocabulary, I could see why some would argue that neither is perfect. However, in this case it seems that for some it was already perfect from the get go.
Earlier you suggested we look at the characteristics of those of us who (from your perspective) didn't grasp your meaning immediately. I guess one of our biggest similarities IMO is that we break down boundaries/borders/categories that we see as arbitrary so that we can make connections and use fragments from a variety of categories in pragmatic ways.

People naturally categorize in order to make sense of the world. Each of us categorizes to differing degrees. The spectrum might look like this.

Apophenia/Paternicity......................................................................................................................................Nondualism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

You may be right. Maybe we just don't get it.

Or, we may see Wheaton tables as tools to help people make sense of an increasingly complex world. Perhaps we don't feel the same desire to categorize. Perhaps we realize that the costs of categorization (and there are costs!) are higher than the benefits. Maybe we just like to cut down fences.

Like the kid said in that video, I could be wrong. :D

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

@Ego - I think the ROI of categorization varies according to one's world-framework-perspective, which is a latticework issue, and one's affinity for grouping which is more like a personal preference (mine is high).

Hence my recent Wheaton table of table-comprehension. If you're an expert on tables, you can apply tables to personal finance because it's a mentally cheap way to grok it: If you know tables, *boom*, Vulcan mind-meld obtains. If not, it's too [mentally] expensive or un-cheap or unproductive: There'll be disagreement about the applicability of tables before it even gets to applying tables to ERE and the main disagreement will be about the method rather than its subject matter.

The hardest "step" is learning the first tool. Each additional tool gets easier to learn.

Individual judgment will be skewed by a combination of preference and comprehension/tool-mastery. So people will be talking past each other.

Overall, table-language is just one tool out of several but it's definitely a tool.

PS: This is before even getting to the metaphysics of nonduality. I'll go straight out perpendicularly to that axis already. I don't think nonduality is pragmatic. Shite, I practically broke up with my XGF over this strain of thinking because I don't think that nonduality is practical when in comes to living in the real world---I'm too much of a scientist. I expect a lot and maybe too much from the human thought process. IOW, "god is not an explanation of random". And I think apohenia or any inherent impulse to seeing significance of any instance of the number 11 is irrelevant insofar that it's not explainable by random statistics or ignorance. IOW, "random is not an explanation of god".

PPS: Acknowledging the potential of being wrong was an amazing thing to see from a kid, maybe because it's practically unpossible to see in an adult. I wondered whether it was real or just parroting words from a parent. If it was real, that kid is going to turn into a terminal cynical nihilist by age 15 or so. The 4 stages of competence follows a trajectory: I'm might be wrong. I'm not wrong. I'm probably wrong. I'm definitely right.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Dragline »

Except for the amps that go to 11. Those are definitely god-like. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by ThisDinosaur »

I think your competence chart is backwards.

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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

My mission is not to assign everybody a number. My mission is to clarify a problem. I have seen this happen hundreds of times. I think that by showing the scale, people will be more aware of the problem and, hopefully, we will have better progress.
Paul Wheaton writing about his scale. The stated problem being:
When somebody is starting down the eco path, many people that are further down the path appear to think that the beginners are fools. And that the people that are further down the path are insane.
So, given this objective, it seems to me that the categories included in the table should be selected to best demonstrate or elicit "foolish" vs. "insane"reaction, and NOT necessarily with the intention to be best descriptors of an individual at that level. My personal, likely biased opinion, is that Paul Wheaton's categories of practice related to dandelions and carbon sequestration metric adequately served this purpose, and so did Jacob's roughly analogous categories of vacation preferences and household spending metric. However, one question I have after perusing the table one more time is how is it possible to have a greater than 100% savings rate?

OTOH, I was very intrigued by this suggestion for an info-graphic with a different purpose.
ThisDinosaur said: ERE goal is at the center. Implying multiple strategies available to get the desired outcome. The renaissance EREer could choose between strategies given the circumstances. Hence, nomads and homesteaders can be on equal standing along differing paths. As they approach the center, some paths begin to overlap (i.e., gardening and DIY home repair merge into homesteading, investment strategies and minimalism merge into FIRE)
Immediately I thought of self-employment and nomadic tendencies merging into Gypsy/Trader lifestyle and self-employment and DIY merging into owning/managing rental real estate and social skills and minimalism merging into various "sharing economy" options. I've been gardening for a number of years, but I only really began to comprehend perma-culture a few years ago. I would say my primary path towards the center of this suggested info-graphic would be self-employment, and very particularly, self-employment in the realm of the discard market. So, I think self-employment and scavenging would be two other paths. At some point in time, I stopped heading any lists with SHOPPING and started heading them SCAVENGE. Therefore, I think another category that might instantly elicit the "foolish" vs. "insane" reaction for the ERE Wheaton Scale would have to do with the extent to which an individual is inclined to scavenge. For instance, "buys bathing suit from pile at $1 thrift store located in worst part of town and tries it on over her clothes in public because there is no dressing room" and "salivates at sight of newly placed dumpster" vs. "buys cardboard box at shipping store" and "rents Halloween costume to wear on Halloween." Just a suggestion ;)

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