The ERE Wheaton Scale

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
jacob
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

To add a little more to daylen's point. Most people (as also seen in this thread) prefer to follow (Copy) personal/hero examples rather than abstract theory which is only pursued by the rare human. (This forum contains a ratio of such rare humans that is far above normal but still not higher than maybe 50-70%).

Further traction is had insofar these example persons/heroes Compare---capitalized C-words indicate the technical meaning described in the ERE book---better than their own current situation. That means it looks like something they'd actually do/prefer. This is why promoting resilience in terms of FIRE is much more effective than promoting it in terms of saving ocean life. Turns out that very few humans care enough about fish to stop eating them.

Humanity is barely at the point where such persons/heroes are "compiled". Right now, there are multiple initiatives online and in reality. There's no Computing ... or rather Computing tends to fail at solving real world problems.

My effort is directed at THAT problem. Most people who reach a high level of perspective/insight/empathy... tend to think that other humans will be just like them; they just need to be organized. I have no such illusions/beliefs. To me that looks like the "Come up with idea, ????, Profit/change"-model of venture capital/idealist activism. But the hard part is the ???? .... so that's what my WL9 is about.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob:

Okay, gotcha now. You are the king of abstract lifestyle design. You shouldn’t waste your time/energy on something like a memoir of your construction of your particular model from the tinker toy kit of ERE. You should work on expanding the capabilities of the kit^^9.

That said, I still think some of us who do comprehend most of the abstract theory could still benefit from more examples at level 7 or 8. For instance, I would very much like to lower my spending to at least 1 Jacob = at least do no harm level, but every time I try to get below around $850/month (level at which I do have record of long-term success), my model falls apart, sometimes quite spectacularly. So, when that happens, it’s hard not to look around at other people’s models to see where you are maybe going wrong before you go back to your own drawing board, but then it can be difficult to figure out what about a particular successful model is critical bit that you are messing up or just reflective of that modeler’s personal preferences or innate traits and then at that point it makes sense to go back to the abstract theory.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“daylen” wrote: Once people are influenced there is still the integration problem involving how Pareto-independent(*) players form an inter-independent alternative to the current inter-dependent system.
Okay, attempting to “read ahead” in the curriculum for fun although I remain stuck in rut at 6/7. Isn’t there a “risk” in alignment with truism “The market can stay stupid for longer than you can stay solvent?” For example, let’s imagine Paul Wheaton’s “Gert” is a node in this interdependent alternative. What if relatively near term overall affluence increases to the point that even the property tax on her small acreage is more than equitable share of sustainable spending?

I kind of imagine it like cells collapsing due to osmotic pressure.

Qazwer
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Qazwer »

@7w5
From a theory perspective
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_Accidents
Any tightly coupled system develops risk of catastrophic failure - so once you cut out slack and tightly create interconnected nodes optimized for the current world reality
‘my model falls apart, sometime quite catastrophically’

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Qazwer:

Let’s leave open the possibility that I don’t understand the theory as well as I think I do :lol: That said, my use of the phrase “catastrophic failure” was somewhat dramatic or exaggerated. My lifestyle never resembles a rigidly efficient machine. It’s more like my loose web degenerates to the point that I am no longer happy.

For instance, let’s say that within limits of 1Jacob spending, I can fulfill my need for carbohydrates with whole oats from source A using method X and/or cake from source B using method Y and/or potatoes from source C using method Z. Even if source C and method B fail independently and simultaneously, I am still left with the option of whole oats, so my system has not failed catastrophically, because I did build in some independent alternatives, but now although I am surviving, I am stuck eating nothing but oatmeal, so now I am unhappy with my model or solution and also recognize that now it is highly dependent on source A and method X for survival, but it will cost some time/money/vigor to either reconnect source C and/or revive method B and/or discover source D and/or become competent in method W.

daylen
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by daylen »

@7W5 It seems to me that you just further advanced the point that independent ingredients are not enough. In an inter-independent network, partial failure of nodes(*) can be supported by insurance pools just like in an inter-dependent one. Except that now many individuals can absorb many shocks before dipping into this pool, thus decreasing premiums.

(*) Which are agents with webs of goals (..or actuation networks in the system I designed recently).

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@daylen:

So, for instance, if Jacob’s potato crop failed the same year Gert’s honey stand failed to yield enough cash to cover her increased property tax bill, he would choose to buy potatoes within the network from her rather than outside of the network? And/or I could barter some of my oats within the network for potatoes and cake until I can get my own potatoes and cake sources/methods back up and running?

I think part of what still puzzles me is how the “insurance” inherent in the 3% rule applied to total market diversified portfolio can be conceived in realms where skill or other form of capital has been applied to reduce typical expense to zero. For example, I have pretty solid record of being able to trade my cooking skills for free ingredients. I also have pretty solid record that I can cook for myself for only $2/day ingredients from store given free access to something like stove/oven/running water/freezer. I also have pretty solid record of being able to garden productively given x,y,z etc etc. If the typical consumer spends $400/month on food, but can cover this expense with invested funds withdrawn at safe rate, how much less safe is the combination of my zeroing out the expense alternatives? I mean I could be lying on the zucchini with a broken hip in my garden slowly dying of exposure and meanwhile the auto-deposit from my Fidelity account is still landing in my checking account. Something like that...

daylen
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by daylen »

@7W5

Finance is definitely more of Jacob's domain but here are a few related thoughts:

1. Dunbars: Let a dunbar be a set of humans on the order of 50-200 individuals that live within the proximity required to negotiate face-to-face on important issues concerning the dunbar domain. Voting is a last resort and a sign that the dunbar is getting too large for the domain. Basically a more strict definition of a tribe that avoids the sensitivity of global communication and online identity. It is possible for a dunbar to insure some catastrophes affecting the individuals within it without requiring formal contracts. Probably not for brain surgery but perhaps for natural disaster and asset damage.

2. Families/bands: Sub-units of a dunbar that cohere through their lineage and are capable of providing child and elder care from within. Culturally, there are many different views of childcare and eldercare that appear to vary based upon geo-politics. For example, in a jungle region children are closely guarded so as not to wonder off and get swallowed whole by an anaconda. Perhaps the culture we can create together is one in which it is accepted practice to care for young, old, or wounded with a broken hip.

3. Ideally many individuals, bands, dunbars, ... , ... , cities, .. , ... and so forth will trend towards being reasonably self-sufficient with an adapting infrastructure to reflect that. What precisely is considered to be "reasonable" is beyond me at the moment.
Last edited by daylen on Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@daylen:

Okay, I think I get this. One note I would make, which was very recently reinforced by the minor potlatch I had with a circle of other old ladies getting vaccinated this morning, is that function defines family as much as family defines function. Not very long ago, in the time of the last great London plague, the word family was inclusive of everybody under the same roof. When you regularly engage in very core human patterns with others such as sharing child/elder care, preparing meals, celebrating holidays, those people will start to “feel like family.” People who are genetically related who stop engaging in these practices or patterns will feel less like family to each other. Similar applies at level of Dunbar number.

Question I would have would be what would constitute “natural” ecosystem domain for a Dunbar given billions of humans on planet. For example, a watershed seems like a natural ecosystem domain to be managed, but you would have to vaporize 99%+ human population to have just 1 Dunbar per water shed.

guitarplayer
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by guitarplayer »

Reverting back to the OP, I am imagining this table reshaped. This is inspired by the shape of Erickson's stages of personality development table like for example in this form, and keeping in mind what @jacob wrote a few pages before that in each paradigm there tend to be focus on some particular aspect:

* First row: Stage, 1, 2, 3, ... 10
* First column (under 'stage'): paradigms, i.e. 'Scarcity', 'Accumulation', ... 'Chop Wood, Carry water'
* Diagonally left-to-right downwards: focal points, I would imagine e.g. for scarcity it would be some form of 'primary focus & frequent talking points', accumulation maybe 'stuff', some more focal points would need to be though of
* Field not on the diagonal could be left blank; does not mean nothing is happening there, other ERE cadets can fill these out later.

Jin+Guice
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Jin+Guice »

What are the lens other than money that have been developed? (I guess this also asks what is the lens being used to look at?)

Where should energy, attention and thought be focused to move from WL6 thinking towards WL7 thinking?

BWND
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by BWND »

Given the value of the Yields and Flows WL 5 to 6 discussion, would there be any benefit in a similar thread for 6 to 7?

jacob
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by jacob »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:17 pm
What are the lens other than money that have been developed? (I guess this also asks what is the lens being used to look at?)
Have you seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPvftqB-WXk yet? During the "deliberate consumer phase (WL5-6) it's the focus on developing other skills/capitals away from the "spend money to solve problem"-lens. This can be technical, repairing stuff, or social in terms of connecting with other people over non-spending bridges or even personal development (there's more to life than becoming rich or giving one's money away).

Also see chapter 4 of the ERE book.

Developing additional lenses will also solve the access and optionality problem that WL4-5 FIRE people have with boredom as they tend to find that a retirement of just consuming recreational services provided by the market is actually rather limited and boring.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:17 pm
Where should energy, attention and thought be focused to move from WL6 thinking towards WL7 thinking?
On connecting these skills and resources with each other ala web-of-goals. Also see chapter 5 of the ERE book.
BWND wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:05 am
Given the value of the Yields and Flows WL 5 to 6 discussion, would there be any benefit in a similar thread for 6 to 7?
Absolutely!!

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Jean
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by Jean »

How much people are around or bellow Jacob on this forum? That would be a good start to get more examples.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The ERE Wheaton Scale

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Jean:

Let’s start new thread first. I will do it.

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