In the thread on optimizing your bike-fleet I stumbled across this:
jacob wrote:I feel a continuous need to downsize everything...
Why?
According to your own 21 days ERE makeover, the downsizing is one of the first things to happen. You've lived in an RV. Why do you still need to downsize? Didn't you do it right the first time, or are you unable to control the influx of things in your life?
It sort of struck a chord, because I'd imagine that someone as unsentimental/rational as you would stop unneeded things from accumulating in the first place. I know that I feel this need, but I think I've become addicted to the feeling of shedding unwanted things from my life (probably in the same way that I might be addicted to learning), but for someone who's been FI for so long, someone who has supposedly lived with little stuff for so long, why does this need to downsize still persist?
Have any of you experienced the same feeling of: It's always too much?
That is, if the feeling of 'too much' is indeed the driving force behind the need to downsize.
In the context of the topic title, one would imagine that if a functioning system was in place to keep clutter out, one would only downsize once and be done with it. So why is this often not the case?
FBeyer wrote:Have any of you experienced the same feeling of: It's always too much?
I'm always downsizing, too, I think in the same sense that Jacob implied. I'm a minimalist who owns few belongings, and I don't feel like I'll ever be finished. I may have found the perfect widget for my life as it is today, but the second my life changes I will reevaluate, and the first part of the evaluation is always "do I still need this?" This is not to say that my home/life is in a state of constant repairs. It's more that I feel like nothing exists in my life - physically, mentally, or relationally - that should not be pared down to its most basic form and examined periodically to see if it still works well. And if it doesn't, it should be repaired, replaced or removed.
Because my somewhat boiling emotional interior (INTJ tertiary) very much desires to live out of a suitcase/"monastic cell" whereas my rational exterior (INTJ secondary) very much prefers to be equipped for a wide variety of tasks/activities.
In particular, since I keep adding competences (in the renaissance sense) the need for initial equipment as a beginner (e.g. a set of chisels) and the subsequent disposal (I realize I only need one chisel) means that it's impossible to converge on a steady state solution. Optimizing these possessions is a work in progress I refer to as decluttering or downsizing although it is functionally quite different from what it typically implies. "Organizing" is a better word but there's more to it than just buying the right storage container---"reevaluating" like GandK is a much better description. Ex-furniture and ex-supplies (plywood boards, paint cans, rice buckets, ...) all my stuff still fits in a car. But it no longer fits in a suitcase.
FBeyer wrote:Have any of you experienced the same feeling of: It's always too much?
That is, if the feeling of 'too much' is indeed the driving force behind the need to downsize.
Yes and the older I get the stronger the feeling gets. I have never really been the good little consumer that economists want me to be, but I never had the urge to downsize what I had so it just naturally came into my life through birthdays, christmas, inheritance, getting married (big one!) and never left. I would estimate that maybe 10% of our household is 'mine' at this point with 80% being 'ours' and a bit more than 10% being 'hers'. My wardrobe in particular has shrunk this year.
It's the 'ours' that is the biggest challenge, but maybe I should just write it off.
I have solved the bd/xmas influx using a combination of explicitly making statements that people shouldn't get me anything and my failure to hide my frustration(*) when it happens anyway. Not a very elegant solution, nor one I'm particularly proud of but I do manage to "win minimalist xmas" by consistently being the one receiving the fewest number of gifts.
(*) "Thank you for your good intentions but you just made my life slightly worse"
FBeyer wrote:I know that I feel this need, but I think I've become addicted to the feeling of shedding unwanted things from my life (probably in the same way that I might be addicted to learning), ...
Probably this too although I don't know if it's an addiction as much as it's just an inherent temperamental preference for optimizing everything.
(Another addiction which I haven't shed despite being FI for 10 years now is the strong desire to keep adding to my savings.)
brute also feels the constant need to "right-size". often that means downsizing. for instance, brute has been contemplating for over a week now if he really needs to own 2 pairs of pants. he almost never wears the second pair.
brute's theory goes like this: there is a set of desires one has, which can change. and every implementation/fix for a set of desires is relative to the environment. for example, paleolithic humans could not use electric space heaters because there were few outlets back then.
so because humans are always changing, and environments are always changing, the optimal solution to the desire-set-to-implementation-set problem always changes.
the perfect solution to the problem would be one item that is free, indestructible or easy to replace, solves every problem or desire a human could ever encounter, has no negative externalities. and so on. currently, this item is not available.
but in a way, technology has somewhat tended to converge on that point. one can now use a single device for entertainment, communications, learning, work, research, and much more. and the device is not that expensive for most western humans, and easily replaceable.
society, on the other hand, has tended in the opposite direction via lifestyle inflation: whereas it used to be great life if one didn't starve and freeze to death, now humans also desire pink iphones and thousands of shirts and cowboy boots and throw rugs and much more.
brute's approach to solving the problem is iterative and from both sides: brute tries to use improved technology to cover more desires better with fewer/smaller/cheaper items, but he also tries to reduce desires when this is less painful.
for example, brute really likes going very fast, but owning vehicles is very expensive. thus, brute has given up going very fast for the time being. brute has also reduced the set of clothes he owns over time, because he's realized there is almost no benefit to having more than 1 week's worth of clothing, and then very little benefit to that over having 2 sets of clothing. in a way, reducing desires could be called "downsizing".
in the other direction, brute is trying to always use new technology in reducing the size, weight, or volume of the solution-set. all else being equal, a lighter or cheaper laptop is better. this could be called "upgrading", even though it includes buying a smaller computer.
why is it better for brute to have fewer/lighter items? because everything that diverges from the optimal solution-set increases friction between the life brute could be living and the life brute lives. unnecessary ownership carries costs. if the cost of that friction is greater than the cost of upgrading/downsizing amortized, brute upgrades/downsizes.
@jacob - I tried this last year but all I got was a deer-in-the-headlights stare and a response along the lines of 'well we already have everything bought for the next few years'. I don't doubt them.
The bad part was that I rationalized keeping almost everything because 'it would be handy to have' and I didn't pay for it. Some stuff we swap out the old when they give us new - some really crappy teflon coated pans and such which got set out on the curb with a big 'free' sign and/or put into garage sale pile. New clothes replace old clothes - I have that on a strict one-in-one-out policy. Tools are the big problem for me.
Another issue is the complexity of the environment. I was just reading my old suitcase post (link above) which recommended something like 12 pairs of socks, 12 shirts, ... This worked well in a year round stable ~1-season climate like Switzerland. Living alone at that time it was perfectly timed to doing laundry every 11 days. Why 11? Because that was exactly what it took to do a full load.
Now living in an climate that has effectively 3 seasons that span more than twice the temperature range + a partner which makes the laundry cycle more random) ... it's much harder to find a fully optimal solution. And that's just for something simple like a wardrobe.
Great certificate, I think we may employ that in our holiday clutter battle.
I am not quite to an 11 day cycle but I'm inching that way. I think I have less than half the wardrobe I did a year ago. If I can get to a color coordinated wardrobe that fits entirely into one load every week and a half, I would certainly separate myself from the random jumble of clothing DW has. She has been catching on to the benefits of efficient living through example. I think she has delegated 30-40% of her wardrobe to garage saling.
It dawned on me that I have never read through the 21 day make over series. I probably should. I'll start with the clothing post.
I have a need to downsize my clutter all the time. Few times a year (maybe every two months) I just have this feeling, so I just go over most of my stuff and every time I manage to find something to throw away. To give you and idea I think I'm able to put all my stuff into two non ridiculous suitcases.
The big issue is having lots of perfectly usable stuff, but in too large quantity. Like worth close to nothing spare parts for my laptop, spare 10$ mobile phone, two same screwdrivers. Or having 20+ tshirts. I don't use them all on daily basis, and there is no point in reselling them, as value is close to zero, but I know that at some point in future I will use them. So I own plenty of rarely used tshirts, which are annoying me every morning when I open my wardrobe.
I think this is need for constant optimization and looking for "just enough" spot. And I know this point is still far away, because when I travel I can easy live from 20L backpack for 2+ weeks. That should be much easier to archive without not so extreme partner. I can reduce a little bit more of my personal stuff at the moment, but it's just a tiny part of overall number of things in house. When it comes to household items, it's getting harder to explain that we don't need 8 plates/spoons/forks etc for two people
I think a lot of people naturally (perhaps even from an evolutionary standpoint) enjoy cataloging or list making, and decluttering requires that, so as an ongoing activity it makes sense that people want to practice it.
Like, I would say I hate getting (junk) mail, but I do actually like sorting it into bills, recycling, etc.
stayhigh wrote:I can reduce a little bit more of my personal stuff at the moment, but it's just a tiny part of overall number of things in house. When it comes to household items, it's getting harder to explain that we don't need 8 plates/spoons/forks etc for two people
LOL. Same here. The argument I get when I try to get rid of anything that isn't specifically mine is "... but it's a perfectly good [thing]!" And my line of thinking is, "That perfectly good thing would sell for $5. If we had $5 instead if that thing, would we spend $5 on that thing, or would we save/redirect the $5? If the latter, we should sell the thing and then we'd have $5." Frequently this works (appealing to his inner tightwad). However, the bigger issue is that certain stuff fills an emotional need in him that it doesn't fill in me. He grew up poorer than I did and with depression-era parents, so I doubt I can change this... when stuff = security, emotions about stuff run deep.
Most of my minimalist efforts these days are directed towards mental and emotional clutter rather than physical clutter.
GandK wrote:Most of my minimalist efforts these days are directed towards mental and emotional clutter rather than physical clutter.
brute thinks this is actually at least as important as reducing physical clutter, but finds it much harder. there seem very straightforward protocols for reducing physical clutter: move a lot, fly a lot, throw stuff away when in doubt, rebuy if it really hurts.
the protocols for reducing mental clutter don't seem nearly as straightforward. maybe meditation is involved somehow. or GTD.
> the protocols for reducing mental clutter don't seem nearly as straightforward.
Eliminate recurring items that are unnecessary. Mostly this seems to be reducing recurring bills that an ERE adherent would already have done, but can also apply to getting someone else to do the stupid chores at work.
Have scripts for remaining recurring items so they're second nature. Trips to the store for groceries should never be an emergency run. Fuel & oil changes for the car are routine. Dental, doctor, etc.
Have contingency plans for reasonable life stuff. Who takes care of the pets/kids/plants when you are called away to fix relative's life or you land in the hospital? Where will you live if the residence burns down? Where do you meet your family in an emergency without relying on cellphones?
She has been catching on to the benefits of efficient living through example. I think she has delegated 30-40% of her wardrobe to garage saling.
I'll start with the clothing post.