Are you Happy?

Surio · Post by **Surio** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:34 am

@roufousdog - "Welcome to Costco, I love you!" -- ROFL!
Hello Yogi,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a "Sociopath" as mentioned in Gervais Principle is verily "not that" Sociopath. You obviously very lucky then for not having met that many

The outed ones are a minority for not having cloaked themsleves as well as the rest

.
When the economic times starts carrying optimism stories, it is time to go with your "inner flow"
Did you manage to read Ryan's post at least?
Surio.

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Edit: Thanks Jacob, I noticed you had responded to yogi while I was typing, so I left my writing "as is"!

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:37 am

@Surio
Sorry, only skimmed it. Couldn't find a good argument against what I posted last in response to jacob. Got to run. I'll try to check back tomorrow. Have a good one.

rufousdog · Post by **rufousdog** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:42 am

@Yogi: I assume you are correct in that it was probably Gilbert quoting Seligman. I have no dispute with the findings as you state them accurately. However, there is probably a genetic basis to whether a person's basic demeanor falls on either side of the neutral baseline. However, consciously trying to be more optimistic won't necessarily make you more happy. It will only give you the *appearance* of being happier.
I'm not "recommending" that people be pessimistic, but I don't think it is an abnormality, either. Similarly, until recently society regarded people who are left-handed to be somewhat abnormal. In ancient times they were literally regarded as 'sinister'. If you are left-handed, even today it isn't easy living in a right-handed world. I know of many a Lefty who has adapted to it - but that's not the same as being naturally right-handed.

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:42 am

@jacob - thanks for more to think about. LOL

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:47 am

@rufousdog - got to run. But, for me it's not about appearance. It's trying to notice the good in the world, in others, and in me. It's trying to be grateful for what I have, for what we all have. It's focusing on what's right with the world a little more. Try it, you might find it's kind of fun.

rufousdog · Post by **rufousdog** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:49 am

@Jacob: I read the stuff about Gervais and found it convoluted and contrived. Whenever someone devises a theory that uses words apart from their established meanings (e.g. "sociopath", "loser" etc.) I glaze over.
IMHO it's psychobabble commentary on office politics, based on a TV show. (Yawn.)

rufousdog · Post by **rufousdog** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:53 am

@Yogi: So did Pollyanna... some see virtue in being Pollyannish.

Surio · Post by **Surio** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:32 am

@Folks,

I mentioned in an earlier thread the following: "it was a moment of genius for Venkatesh Rao to put into so many words, what most "Neos" already sense".
Please remember, Venkatesh was 'telling a story' and he used two "plot devices", a) MacLeod's cartoon and b) "The Office". I suspect it was more a case of grabbing two (what he had hoped for) popular themes to resonate with the crowd that frequent his cave(*).
I posit, that he could have easily used a few "Dilberts" and got the point across as well. I also posit that Jacob's explanation of the organisational hierarchical model and pitfalls(#) holds true even if you replace "sociopaths" with "Nitwits", "clueless" with "pointy-haired-boss or Terminator" and "losers" with "Dogbert or Saucery-Surio". All I am trying to say is, sometimes if we hinge ourselves too much to the words, we sometimes skip out on the "sense" of the point being communicated. So please do not read so much into the words themselves or the fact that it is based on a sitcom as such. Hope I clarified.
(*) I suspect, that sitcom being representative of many of today's workplaces, served as a convenient foil to him.

(#) with its multifarious dungeons and dragons
@slacker,

Hello there (Happy New Year?). There are a few people in the forum that are not FI yet but still frequent and post, so please be more specific and let me know what was it that you wished to tap from 'we' (just joking there ;-])? You may know already that I am a nerdy-wordy guy, and open-ended questions to me are a very bad choice (paragraphs of answers, followed by more paragraphs of "study guides" )-: ). Also from a practical point, I don't have as much time on my hands as I had in Christmas/New Year break (**).... Please write more specifically, things that you want me to clarify or explain your concerns some more, if you can. I will do my best to answer.

(**) And that new kitten that I was forced to adopt! - Jacob, will you be kind enough to leave some template <img> tags to tweak size of images in the admin stuff area?
Best,

Surio.

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slacker · Post by **slacker** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:49 am

@surio: well...I'm not FI or ERE either, and I agree that that's besides the point.
the question was: Do you do anything now that brings home money? As simple as that

I read about the kitten...poor thing..but well...I trust it's in good hands now. Does it have a name yet?

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:07 am

@ rufousdog
LOL. Poor Pollyanna gets a bad rap. People use her name to indicate optimism gone to the extreme or someone who is naive and avoiding (or unaware of) reality. I actually kind of like Pollyanna myself. She was just a potentially very sad girl who worked hard on making herself feel better by looking at the positives in life.
Trying to be more optimistic doesn't mean that you don't see the problems. It means that you try to look for the opportunities in your problems and not the problems in your opportunities. Any true pessimist will tell you it's miserable. I only consider myself "neutral" because I work on being more optimistic. If I didn't, I'd probably be on some mood enhancing meds (or worse)

So next time you feel a little down, sit down and write ten things for which you're really grateful, and then tell me if you don't feel better.
As a great sorcerer once said, "Welcome to Costco, I love you!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbmQQ4RfzVE

Maus · Post by **Maus** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:32 am

I usually don't ask myself whether I am happy because when I do, the answer is more often than not "No." I'm probably a bit seratonin-challenged, but I refuse to take an anti-depressant. Moreover, my former work as a prosecutor exposed me to enough human folly and malice to fill the swimming pool of life with plenty of cynicism and pessimism. The only antidote that I find effective is to live in the present moment as purposefully as I can, with full attention to the person or task with which I am currently engaged. Absent those opportunities, I spend a lot of time reading books or blogs so that my mind doesn't have an opportunity to drift into negativity.
Which leads me to why finding a job that is interesting as a source of happiness strikes me as impossible for people like me. I like challenging problems, but I get bored with routine. This is a typical NT trait. So every job I've ever had, without exception, got boring at some point -- some sooner than others. The difficulty lies in the transition to the next job. The promise of FI is that I can occupy myself without concern for the economic implications of rapidly escaping boring circumstance. And that might just make me happier.

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:36 am

@ Surio
Yes, I did get the gist of what Venkatesh. I liked it. It's an interesting premise. I happen to like The Office too, so that's a plus too:)

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:46 am

@Maus
Can you elaborate on "The difficulty lies in the transition to the next job"?

rufousdog · Post by **rufousdog** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:27 am

@Yogi:
Decades ago, when I studied psychology, the Pollyanna mentality was also known as that of "sweet lemons". (So named as a contrast to the "sour grapes" attitude which is that of an unsupported assumption. The difference is that grapes *can* be sweet or sour - but there are *no* sweet lemons. Which is why Pollyannaism is not only an assumption, but an impossibility, one that runs contrary to reality. So Pollyanna gets a much deserved rap.
As for the video you linked - apparently it is country music, which is not my cup of tea.
And no, Costco does not love me. Nor do I want them to.
Three strikes, you're out. :-/

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:46 am

@rufousdog
I don't quite follow the "sweet lemons" idea. Could you explain that a little more?

lrduncan · Post by **lrduncan** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:02 am

@rufousdog -- The Costco comment was a reference to the movie Idiocracy. Excellent movie.

yogi · Post by **yogi** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:21 am

Haha, I don't believe Costco loves us. But they do love our money

Country music isn't really my favorite either. I just kind of like how old the song is and that it is conveying a message to try to stay positive. I think it was written in the 1800s.

Surio · Post by **Surio** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:24 pm

.....................Oh My,

..this thread is a busy hive

Hello @slacker,

Firstly, This one's on your query.

You wrote:

Do you do anything now that brings home money? As simple as that

Hmmm... How many ways do I bring home the bread?

Let me count the ways! (With apologies to Elizabeth Barrett =])
Passive income

1. One property rental income from Europe

1a. When I was 9-5, that income was reinvested into EU MFs.

Time for maturity coming up. "Childrens' trust fund", bruv!

2. Two property rental incomes from India

(But one mortgage is yet to be paid off,

so technically only one counts)

2a. Car paid off, so one less hassle.

3. You may have read that I was nearly .25FI before walking out.

3a. All that money are fully invested in equities (US, India, EU)

3b. I will start trading more actively from this year onwards.

4. I have some lump sums invested in Mutual Funds that are currently doing very well (Touch Wood!). I could cash out any time I want to.

5. I have previously written that DW is chained to a desk. Since, I am not FI still, her job mainly provides for health insurance and we use her income chiefly for the minimal household expenses at the moment and using the surplus to plug that remaining mortgage.

5a. That is high priority for me. Setting up a health package for full family.

Our forthcoming attractions:

I incurred some sunk costs in terms of setting up a company and travelling around for scouting for business/leads (most of it I will deduct and reclaim anyway), but if you look through the links I shared with @NY99er, as a company entity, I can now start legitimately deducting many things as "company expenses", "carry over of losses", etc..etc...

....Some advantages that I intend to make use of.

Office furniture, travels, car depreciation as cost,

Blackadder collection ooooops... cancel that one

The business has not started making active money yet, so, wish me luck on that one brother! Again, the idea is that whatever I make from the business, will go into the FI fund.
Definitely, these are a couple of concepts that one MUST internalise before undertaking 'ERE'. I am giving them to you free. Consider it a "GIFT"

. For I am sure, you will do the same for me

:

0. It is easier than people think to make money. Indeed, if more people realised how little of their current effort is needed to make themselves some money, the next revolution will commence this weekend... I have vague recollections in the dim recesses of my graying memory that Jacob also made a summat similar remark in some post.... (Help me here, 'CL'?)

1. money is colour-blind, race-blind, sex-blind, degree-blind and couldn't care less who brought you up or in what circumstances. Money is one of the most neutral substances on earth.

2. One more idea that people fail to internalise is this: the important part is how much of your income you actually spend. Even before discussing "savings rate as a % of income", get a clear grip on this one. If this one is clear, everything else will fall in place. As I pointed out to yogi, I know how little my "real" needs are, so I don't suffer palpitations in the night.

3. Try not to spend money over ANYTHING, until you know that you've invested an amount of money that has already (or will do so shortly) recouped the money you've just spent. Try it honestly and watch your expenses whittle to 20%. (Edit: Jacob's re-posted an older post that discusses precisely this!)

P.S: Afterthought: Jacob, I am getting good at distilling the concepts too, I realise... Do you want to collaborate with a (ahem..) co-author when you decide to sit down for the next book?

Open offer... Left standing

OK. That's done. So, slacker.... now fair's fair, what's the deal on your end? Come clean now. =) or to echo the pop-culture phrase
What is in your wallet?

(picture that as a shout ;-])
Yours,

Surio.

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Surio · Post by **Surio** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:30 pm

@lrduncan,

Thanks for being considerate and pointing it out. I ought to have supplied a link in the first place myself. My bad!
@Folks,

I am glad that the ambiguity over the "meanings" haven't ended up overpowering the actual "message".
@yogi,

I think, I understand what @Maus meant to convey.... If this is not what you meant to convey, then "I am sorry, Maus, it's your turn on the soap box now

".

Next time at the library, pick up any book by John Le'Carre and try to read the "voice" of any of the side characters' from the book (maybe the protaganist even). You will see that they've seen so many things go wrong and go bad in the name of survival, they will be deeply cynical about it all!
Now, picture you in your very first job right after Uni.... So full of dreams and optimism, right? And then you get jaded. Then you move to the second one... But you are not so full of beans as you were in the first job, right? Picture the fourth job. The beans? What beans?

Right, @Maus?
P.S: @Maus (you had that moniker in the blogs too, right?) - I've always meant to ask, But is that moniker inspired by Artie Spiegelman's book?
@maus wrote:

The only antidote that I find effective is to live in the present moment as purposefully as I can, with full attention to the person or task with which I am currently engaged.

WOW!! All those years of monkhood training... I am IMPRESSED and ENVIOUS... You've got to start a thread and tell people how to achieve that flow you've spoken about. No, not "that flow". We know that one

Best,

Surio.

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rufousdog · Post by **rufousdog** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:02 pm

@Yogi: I said "Decades ago, when I studied psychology, the Pollyanna mentality was also known as that of "sweet lemons". (So named as a contrast to the "sour grapes" attitude which is that of an unsupported assumption. The difference is that grapes *can* be sweet or sour - but there are *no* sweet lemons. Which is why Pollyannaism is not only an assumption, but an impossibility, one that runs contrary to reality. So Pollyanna gets a much deserved rap."
There isn't much more to explain. Do you understand the concept of "sour grapes" (from the Aesop fable of the same name)? As I said, both "sour grapes" (pessimism) and "sweet lemons" (optimism) are unfounded assumptions. The difference however, is that some grapes are sweet, but there is no such thing as a sweet lemon.
Polyannaism was considered an irrational view of life, and it was literally also called "sweet lemons" (as opposed to "sour grapes") as an alternate name.
A similar, more recent phrase that popped into my mind is Alan Greenspan's oft-quoted comment: "irrational exuberance".
I haven't seen the movie Idiocracy. I'll check it out and see if it is worthwhile.