Hi all,
In the book "Stumbling on Happiness" by Dan Gilbert (Professor of Psychology at Harvard University), he states that we are poor predictors of what will make us happy. I assume that one of the reasons you are interested in ERE is because you believe it will make you happy.
So for those of you who have actually retired early at a very low expense level, are you happier now than before retirement?
For those of you currently pursuing a plan to retire early (at a low expense level), are you happier now than before?
Please include how long you have been living at your decreased expense level too.
Are you Happy?
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jacob
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According to my wife, I got happier after I retired.
Happiness is really poorly defined. A person who smiles and laughs a lot is not necessarily happy. I'd define happiness as the freedom from bad emotions. Not having to deal with aspects of my career (the self-promotion/"professional" part) I didn't like removed these emotions.
On the other hand, I think if someone thinks that he's going to do more pleasing activities in retirement, that is, moving towards happiness rather than away from unhappiness, I think he's going to be disappointed.
Happiness is really poorly defined. A person who smiles and laughs a lot is not necessarily happy. I'd define happiness as the freedom from bad emotions. Not having to deal with aspects of my career (the self-promotion/"professional" part) I didn't like removed these emotions.
On the other hand, I think if someone thinks that he's going to do more pleasing activities in retirement, that is, moving towards happiness rather than away from unhappiness, I think he's going to be disappointed.
Happiness is a slippery thing to judge. I'd grade myself as a naturally very happy person, so it really doesn't take much to give me a high level of satisfaction with my life. Honestly, I'd say I was happier in general when I lived in one place with a yard to garden in, many friends and neighbors to visit, and lots of time to ride my bike than I currently am as a full time traveler. Don't get me wrong, traveling is *interesting*, but not particularly fun and definitely stressful at times. So yeah, the things I find bring me the most happiness in life are very ERE compatible so I expect having more time for those things will increase my happiness level. My job is low-stress and sometimes enjoyable so there's not much of the unhappiness removal aspect for me personally.
I am not retired, or at FI level yet. I've been at my current expense level for nearly 2.5 years. Quantifying my own happiness is tricky-- how does one do that? Overall, I think I am just as happy as I was before the change.
However, I now feel much more secure, balanced, and healthy. I feel like I'm successfully molding my life into something I always wanted it to be. I feel much, much more satisfied with my life now. I'm not really sure if that makes me happier or not-- but it feels somewhat like happiness.
Though I don't think it comes through in my posts, I think I'm a pretty happy guy. I wonder what percentage of people think of themselves as typically not happy?
However, I now feel much more secure, balanced, and healthy. I feel like I'm successfully molding my life into something I always wanted it to be. I feel much, much more satisfied with my life now. I'm not really sure if that makes me happier or not-- but it feels somewhat like happiness.
Though I don't think it comes through in my posts, I think I'm a pretty happy guy. I wonder what percentage of people think of themselves as typically not happy?
Well, there's not really a scientific way to judge your happiness. It's just your call. However you interpret it. It doesn't really need to be over thought. Just go with your feelings. As Jacob was hinting there's no scientific smile per hour reading or anything. You just take your own gauge. And no one can judge your happiness but you. I can tell you I'm generally more happy in my current job than my previous one. But I'm more happy on vacation than working.
Mo, from the reading I've done (Gilbert, Seligman, Haidt), it seems like there are people who are naturally happy like you and S and some who are naturally unhappy. I don't know the percentages though. Both you and S should consider yourself lucky though! Not everyone is so lucky. I tend to be kind of neutral myself. But I know there have been times in my life when things are better than others.
S, in Gilbert's opinion, we are notoriously bad at guessing what will make us happy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stumbling_on_Happiness
"The advice Gilbert offers is to use other people's experiences to predict the future, instead of imagining it. It is surprising how similar people are in much of their experiences, he says. He does not expect too many people to heed this advice, as our culture, accompanied by various thinking tendencies, is against this method of decision making."
Jacob,
You mentioned that you removed some particular negative feelings from your life. But overall, would you consider yourself less unhappy now that you've retired? I mean there could be unexpected issues that arose and unexpected sources of happiness lost.
Mo, from the reading I've done (Gilbert, Seligman, Haidt), it seems like there are people who are naturally happy like you and S and some who are naturally unhappy. I don't know the percentages though. Both you and S should consider yourself lucky though! Not everyone is so lucky. I tend to be kind of neutral myself. But I know there have been times in my life when things are better than others.
S, in Gilbert's opinion, we are notoriously bad at guessing what will make us happy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stumbling_on_Happiness
"The advice Gilbert offers is to use other people's experiences to predict the future, instead of imagining it. It is surprising how similar people are in much of their experiences, he says. He does not expect too many people to heed this advice, as our culture, accompanied by various thinking tendencies, is against this method of decision making."
Jacob,
You mentioned that you removed some particular negative feelings from your life. But overall, would you consider yourself less unhappy now that you've retired? I mean there could be unexpected issues that arose and unexpected sources of happiness lost.
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George the original one
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Happiness, for me, is closely related to a lack of drama from external sources. Wife is similarly happy, though she's the pessimist in the family. The only tie to money is whether we have enough to do the things we enjoy; more money allows more freedom.
My sister (she's 58), due to her inability to live a rational life, has been a source of frustration and anxiety for the past decade. Not all of it is her fault as a lack of a functioning thyroid means she's on the knife-edge between depressive-fear-of-doing and manic-can't-decide-what-to-do. She did manage to get a BA this past spring, but her continued lack of making realistic plans means she's going to be evicted in a few days... the simple answer that I've been telling her for the past three years is that if your rent is $760/mo and you find you're living on the edge, then take a part-time job and/or take an apartment at $325/mo, but she refuses to do either and believes the family should support this lack of judgement.
We kept her off the streets in 2006 after she lost her house and got her back on her feet. Unfortunately she's not learned any lessons since.
Similar drama from nieces, nephews, and brother-in-law have occurred, but it's my sister that's the most frequent and troublesome.
Work can be a source of anxiety, not because of the technical problems, but having coworkers & management that can be described as lame.
My sister (she's 58), due to her inability to live a rational life, has been a source of frustration and anxiety for the past decade. Not all of it is her fault as a lack of a functioning thyroid means she's on the knife-edge between depressive-fear-of-doing and manic-can't-decide-what-to-do. She did manage to get a BA this past spring, but her continued lack of making realistic plans means she's going to be evicted in a few days... the simple answer that I've been telling her for the past three years is that if your rent is $760/mo and you find you're living on the edge, then take a part-time job and/or take an apartment at $325/mo, but she refuses to do either and believes the family should support this lack of judgement.
We kept her off the streets in 2006 after she lost her house and got her back on her feet. Unfortunately she's not learned any lessons since.
Similar drama from nieces, nephews, and brother-in-law have occurred, but it's my sister that's the most frequent and troublesome.
Work can be a source of anxiety, not because of the technical problems, but having coworkers & management that can be described as lame.
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jacob
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I think happiness is best defined as when you are behaving according to whatever your nature is. For instance, my nature is to be inquisitive and trying to learn new things. I am at my best (happiest?) when I'm motivated to finding things out.
[Others may be at their happiest when they are looking at the house with the picket fence they just bought or when they are falling screaming with a bungree cord tied around their feet.
Personally, I am most unhappy when I'm bored or forced to do things which I consider to have very little value (inefficiencies).
After "retiring" I very rarely, if ever, do things I consider to have very little value. I am sometimes bored but much less so than I was on my job. Now the problem is merely to find something to do which isn't boring. In a job you're stuck with doing boring stuff, if it bores you. Career-wise a major problem was that I in my opinion had become too overqualified for what I was doing. I could essentially do my job in 1 to 2 hours per day yet I was stuck being there for 8 hours a day.
In terms of highs ... well, now I'm free to pursue more interests so it makes it a lot easier to find an interesting problem to solve. In my career I was confined to thinking about a few specific things.
There is an important point here. Many people are able to confine their interests to a very narrow field and remain there for their whole life. They'll spend 5-10 years investing one sub-sub-field of physics; then change their focus slightly to an adjacent sub-sub-field of physics and so on. I was not capable of that. Having thought about a particular sub-sub-field of physics for 10 years already, I'd rather think about global energy problems or finance. Unfortunately my job description didn't allow for that. This is the main reason I quit. My job was no longer compatible with my interests. I had basically learned as much about physics as I cared to. I wasn't learning anymore, so I took the natural consequence.
[Others may be at their happiest when they are looking at the house with the picket fence they just bought or when they are falling screaming with a bungree cord tied around their feet.
Personally, I am most unhappy when I'm bored or forced to do things which I consider to have very little value (inefficiencies).
After "retiring" I very rarely, if ever, do things I consider to have very little value. I am sometimes bored but much less so than I was on my job. Now the problem is merely to find something to do which isn't boring. In a job you're stuck with doing boring stuff, if it bores you. Career-wise a major problem was that I in my opinion had become too overqualified for what I was doing. I could essentially do my job in 1 to 2 hours per day yet I was stuck being there for 8 hours a day.
In terms of highs ... well, now I'm free to pursue more interests so it makes it a lot easier to find an interesting problem to solve. In my career I was confined to thinking about a few specific things.
There is an important point here. Many people are able to confine their interests to a very narrow field and remain there for their whole life. They'll spend 5-10 years investing one sub-sub-field of physics; then change their focus slightly to an adjacent sub-sub-field of physics and so on. I was not capable of that. Having thought about a particular sub-sub-field of physics for 10 years already, I'd rather think about global energy problems or finance. Unfortunately my job description didn't allow for that. This is the main reason I quit. My job was no longer compatible with my interests. I had basically learned as much about physics as I cared to. I wasn't learning anymore, so I took the natural consequence.
I've only had a very few days in my life when my happiness meter was below half-full. Some of these days I may have brought on myself through a stupid error in calculation. I could count these days using my available fingers and toes. I have set up some things that backfired and cost me dearly, and I was upset as I should have known better.
I can declare happiness by saying I would not have changed one thing about my life of soon to be 66 years. (That is except for my stupid mistakes, but one needs to make some, and you grow by making them.)
In closing, I must quote my Grandmother:
"All in all, I am about as happy as if I had good sense".
I can declare happiness by saying I would not have changed one thing about my life of soon to be 66 years. (That is except for my stupid mistakes, but one needs to make some, and you grow by making them.)
In closing, I must quote my Grandmother:
"All in all, I am about as happy as if I had good sense".
So Jacob, which of the following would better summarize your last post?
"Retiring early made me happier, but I believe your mileage may vary."
or
"I had good reasons for thinking retiring early would make me happier, but am not sure if it really did overall."
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Incidentally, according the the branch of psycology known as "Positive Psychology" you have identified some of your "Character strengths and virtues". They happen fall in the "Wisdom and Knowledge" category. You have also taken steps to utilize your strengths more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_p ... nd_virtues
And by doing so you may have more opportunities to enter a state of "flow".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology#Flow
"Retiring early made me happier, but I believe your mileage may vary."
or
"I had good reasons for thinking retiring early would make me happier, but am not sure if it really did overall."
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Incidentally, according the the branch of psycology known as "Positive Psychology" you have identified some of your "Character strengths and virtues". They happen fall in the "Wisdom and Knowledge" category. You have also taken steps to utilize your strengths more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_p ... nd_virtues
And by doing so you may have more opportunities to enter a state of "flow".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology#Flow
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jacob
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@yogi - The first. I don't spend a whole lot of time monitoring my "happiness". DW tells me I'm much happier and less stressed now.
In going with your theme, I believe there's a lot of people who are absolutely clueless about their core strengths or even with who they are.
A lot of people confuse who they are either with what they do/their job ("I have a passion for filing systems and text editing") or what society thinks they should be ("I'm not a bad person. I'm outgoing and fun."). This is not surprising. All their life they have been told how to behave and be in order to "be successful".
Frankly many people would not know what to do with themselves if they didn't have a boss who told them how to spend their day. Others only find their life to be meaningful if they have a job, alternatively children.
Most people are followers---they are not self-directed. If you retire early without being self-directed, you're probably going to have a problem.
In other words, once you retire, you'll learn who you really are (as opposed to who your employer wants you to be). If you didn't already know this will be quite interesting.
In going with your theme, I believe there's a lot of people who are absolutely clueless about their core strengths or even with who they are.
A lot of people confuse who they are either with what they do/their job ("I have a passion for filing systems and text editing") or what society thinks they should be ("I'm not a bad person. I'm outgoing and fun."). This is not surprising. All their life they have been told how to behave and be in order to "be successful".
Frankly many people would not know what to do with themselves if they didn't have a boss who told them how to spend their day. Others only find their life to be meaningful if they have a job, alternatively children.
Most people are followers---they are not self-directed. If you retire early without being self-directed, you're probably going to have a problem.
In other words, once you retire, you'll learn who you really are (as opposed to who your employer wants you to be). If you didn't already know this will be quite interesting.
Happiness means getting what you want. Within that scope of definition, for the most of my life, in most things, I've been happy and been good at it. Because in the United States, most of life's objectives have been designed to be attainable - a little scripted, if you will - it takes effort, true, but it is attainable.
I am preparing to financially better myself given current constraints. It has been a challenging task. I have been exposed to many ideas that are "out of the box", driving me away from my balance and comfort zone which I have been accustomed to for a long time.
There is no guarantee of success. For all I know, all this effort may be in vain. I am solely responsible.
Am I happy? Hell yes. This is a journey and an adventure.
-- going into 3rd month.
I am preparing to financially better myself given current constraints. It has been a challenging task. I have been exposed to many ideas that are "out of the box", driving me away from my balance and comfort zone which I have been accustomed to for a long time.
There is no guarantee of success. For all I know, all this effort may be in vain. I am solely responsible.
Am I happy? Hell yes. This is a journey and an adventure.
-- going into 3rd month.
I read Gilbert's book when it first came out and I found it very insightful. Inclusive in that, it seems that some people are more inclined towards being "happy" than others, and that may have a bio-chemical or genetic basis. Interestingly it has been observed that people who are marginally depressed tend to see life more realistically than those who are not.
There is the American standard of virtue of striving toward 'the American dream' and the 'pursuit of happiness', and Lincoln's saying that "people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be". The former suggest a form of illusion or endless striving and the latter a form of self determination or mind over matter.
Personally I tend to be neutral, tending toward pessimistic. A lot probably hinges on one's expectations. Once you have attained a level of comfort and security you realize that your life probably won't get any better than it currently is (especially as you grow older) - and you have some concern about maintaining it, so that it doesn't get worse.
There is the American standard of virtue of striving toward 'the American dream' and the 'pursuit of happiness', and Lincoln's saying that "people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be". The former suggest a form of illusion or endless striving and the latter a form of self determination or mind over matter.
Personally I tend to be neutral, tending toward pessimistic. A lot probably hinges on one's expectations. Once you have attained a level of comfort and security you realize that your life probably won't get any better than it currently is (especially as you grow older) - and you have some concern about maintaining it, so that it doesn't get worse.
@ Jacob - Something to think about as usual. We'll have to make an exception for you and take your DW's word for it 
Actually, I think that I'm like you in a lot of ways. I love learning and problem solving too. And like you my interest change drastically. My interests du jour have ranged from microbiolgy, to bio-chemistry, to computer science, to investing, to exercise and nutrition, to football, to psychology, and now to retirement A lot of times my interest is very passionate but after I learn a certain amount, I'm done -- no longer curious about that topic. That's kind of a problem now. When I started my current job I was fascinated by computers and computer science. But many years ago, I lost that interest. I learned as much as I wanted to know. I lost my passion.
But like you mentioned I'm not sure if I can handle early retirement. After graduating from college and before taking my first job I had about a 6 month "sabbatical" I had all these grandiose ideas of everything I would do and accomplish during the break. But I ended up just frittering away most of the time - waking up late, flitting from one random book to the next, watching too much sports, aimless wandering from place to place - just generally goofing off. I actually ended up taking a meaningless job just so I'd feel somewhat productive. (well, that and the fact that I was also running out of money
Anyway, like you, the freedom of not being chained to a 9-5 sounds very tempting to me. I'm just afraid, that because of my personality that I'd be even more bored than I am at work. And more isolated than I am socially. I wonder if I should just be looking for a job that I find more interesting and trying to lower my expenses so that money isn't too much of a concern.
PS. I just bought a copy of your book on Amazon.
Actually, I think that I'm like you in a lot of ways. I love learning and problem solving too. And like you my interest change drastically. My interests du jour have ranged from microbiolgy, to bio-chemistry, to computer science, to investing, to exercise and nutrition, to football, to psychology, and now to retirement
A lot of times my interest is very passionate but after I learn a certain amount, I'm done -- no longer curious about that topic. That's kind of a problem now. When I started my current job I was fascinated by computers and computer science. But many years ago, I lost that interest. I learned as much as I wanted to know. I lost my passion.But like you mentioned I'm not sure if I can handle early retirement. After graduating from college and before taking my first job I had about a 6 month "sabbatical" I had all these grandiose ideas of everything I would do and accomplish during the break. But I ended up just frittering away most of the time - waking up late, flitting from one random book to the next, watching too much sports, aimless wandering from place to place - just generally goofing off. I actually ended up taking a meaningless job just so I'd feel somewhat productive. (well, that and the fact that I was also running out of money
Anyway, like you, the freedom of not being chained to a 9-5 sounds very tempting to me. I'm just afraid, that because of my personality that I'd be even more bored than I am at work. And more isolated than I am socially. I wonder if I should just be looking for a job that I find more interesting and trying to lower my expenses so that money isn't too much of a concern.
PS. I just bought a copy of your book on Amazon.
@ rufousdog - I too tend to be "neutral, tending toward pessimistic". That kind of stinks for us, but I think we do have an advantage about seeing things more clearly. Anyway, would love to talk more about the topic; but if I don't get to bed soon, I might be taking an "early retirement" much sooner than I'd like
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jacob
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@yogi - "I wonder if I should just be looking for a job that I find more interesting and trying to lower my expenses so that money isn't too much of a concern." --- I think so. There's nothing wrong with getting interested in something which happens to be a job and make money. The freedom is in doing something without regards for the compensation.
If you look at what people prioritize in a job, compensation is typically quite a bit down the list. However, compensation is also crucial. Very few people can afford spending 8 or 10 hours a day without getting some sort of compensation.
This is not the case for me which means I have a lot more freedom to pick and choose.
With such a freedom, it's fairly easy to find something to do if you're willing to put in some effort to making it happen. Of course you have to find this motivation somewhere else than having to pay the bills.
If you look at what people prioritize in a job, compensation is typically quite a bit down the list. However, compensation is also crucial. Very few people can afford spending 8 or 10 hours a day without getting some sort of compensation.
This is not the case for me which means I have a lot more freedom to pick and choose.
With such a freedom, it's fairly easy to find something to do if you're willing to put in some effort to making it happen. Of course you have to find this motivation somewhere else than having to pay the bills.
Nice topic!
@Jacob, my wife tells me the very same... That the best thing that happened to me so far other than marrying her, of course was my "retirement"
LOL!
P.S: I am not FI yet (furiously working on it though), but I did choose to walk out of my job because I was getting physically ill with all the corrosiveness around me and it was left to me to either stage a walk out or suffer insanity and death.
And yes, life's been most definitely, positively worth living since I walked out =)!
Jacob's point on "definition of happiness" (I don't think I want to write any better or any different) concurs my own impressions on the topic.
Jacob wrote:
In other words, once you retire, you'll learn who you really are (as opposed to who your employer wants you to be). If you didn't already know this will be quite interesting.
110% true! I've seen this with my own father post retirement, and with his many 'cohorts' who retired with him... They've all been making their lives and the lives of their near and dear miserable since their retirement, because they don't know a) who they are, b) what they wanted in life, or c) what they got out of it in the first place..
@yogi,
Totally right on the "Your mileage will vary" ERE summarisation there
, and I take that definition myself too!
"I wonder if I should just be looking for a job that I find more interesting and trying to lower my expenses so that money isn't too much of a concern."
@'cult-leader', I am glad you approve of it
I did that one myself recently, and I too would heartily recommend that route brother. Happiness is a feeling, and you will feel the happiness once the chief burdens lift off....
Surio.
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Edit: I notice that I izzz now an apprentice (Err..YaY?, Not really, I think I need to go out and get a life!) (BTW, can we have a sorceror badge, Jacob? HeH Heh)...
@Jacob, my wife tells me the very same... That the best thing that happened to me so far other than marrying her, of course was my "retirement"
LOL!P.S: I am not FI yet (furiously working on it though), but I did choose to walk out of my job because I was getting physically ill with all the corrosiveness around me and it was left to me to either stage a walk out or suffer insanity and death.
And yes, life's been most definitely, positively worth living since I walked out =)!
Jacob's point on "definition of happiness" (I don't think I want to write any better or any different) concurs my own impressions on the topic.
Jacob wrote:
In other words, once you retire, you'll learn who you really are (as opposed to who your employer wants you to be). If you didn't already know this will be quite interesting.
110% true! I've seen this with my own father post retirement, and with his many 'cohorts' who retired with him... They've all been making their lives and the lives of their near and dear miserable since their retirement, because they don't know a) who they are, b) what they wanted in life, or c) what they got out of it in the first place..
@yogi,
Totally right on the "Your mileage will vary" ERE summarisation there
, and I take that definition myself too!"I wonder if I should just be looking for a job that I find more interesting and trying to lower my expenses so that money isn't too much of a concern."
@'cult-leader', I am glad you approve of it
I did that one myself recently, and I too would heartily recommend that route brother. Happiness is a feeling, and you will feel the happiness once the chief burdens lift off....
Surio.
---
Edit: I notice that I izzz now an apprentice (Err..YaY?, Not really, I think I need to go out and get a life!) (BTW, can we have a sorceror badge, Jacob? HeH Heh)...
@jacob - " Of course you have to find this motivation somewhere else than having to pay the bills."
Hmm, something else to think about - trying to find some "positive" (instead of fear based) motivation to counteract my natural tendency towards sloth:)
In addition to the above, I will be looking into decreasing expenses, raising my investment's current payouts, and looking into alternate "career paths" including some that might by low paying.
Hmm, something else to think about - trying to find some "positive" (instead of fear based) motivation to counteract my natural tendency towards sloth:)
In addition to the above, I will be looking into decreasing expenses, raising my investment's current payouts, and looking into alternate "career paths" including some that might by low paying.