Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego said: Sometimes it is good to let the pieces lie where they fall. Sometimes not. Either way, it is a choice.
I know, I know. I should also mention that as these recent events unfolded I was suffering from some terrible virus I picked up from choosing to work in a crowded monoculture of 5 year olds and was therefore temporarily unable to function as rationally as I would prefer. (((Poor me))) The reason the topic of this thread struck a red button with me is that I was made aware of my mother's increasing decrepitude. If I was going to cast a movie version of my life, my mother would be played by Elizabeth Taylor. My father, who would be played by somebody like Fred MacMurray (thankfully, or who knows how I would have turned out) in a typically idiotic male move, married her because of some puppy-love infatuation he developed when he saw "National Velvet" in his youth. She suffers from bi-polar disease and, therefore, was quite neglectful and frequently abusive in her behavior during my childhood. It is only in recent years that I have accepted that she is my mother. The reason why I decided it was in my self-interest to accept that she is my mother is that I realized that it was not in my self-interest to always do the opposite of what she would do. Anyways, the situation is that I believe that I have some level of social responsibility to provide some level of care for my mother even though I have only a very slight affectionate bond with her. I have to say things to myself like "She saw to it that we had lots of arts and crafts supplies and dance lessons." in order to break through my resistance to even give her a hug. Luckily, my father was a high-level federal government employee, so the checks keep rolling in.

OTOH, I love my cuckoo-bananas sister and very much value my relationship with her, so I am choosing not to completely default to "I'm outta here." in the face of whatever is currently going wrong with her brain. She is the prototypical Bohemian artist type, so her insanity is taking the form of performance art gone terribly wrong and over the line of anti-social. So, it is already seeming kind of funny to me in a very black humor way. She almost died from cervical cancer, so a normal-crazy thing she once did was to dress herself up like a clown-stripper and perform a sort of burlesque act in front of a strip bar that was right by a college campus while handing out information on HPV vaccine to people on the street. Now she is doing crazy-crazy things that don't have sensible underlying motivations and she resisted arrest and one of the cops slammed her against a wall and gave her a terrible black eye. She promised me that she won't do any more public dancing and she understands that I am very angry that she made use of tomatoes from my garden in a criminal act. Yesterday she told me that she is going to start composing a work that will make use of modern dance music in the way Chopin made use of folk music, and it will be entitled "Sketches from the Metal" and her new identity or band name will be Black Squirrel. One thing my daughter once said was "In our family the only choice you have is which Wes Anderson movie you want to be in." I guess my point here being that I am willing (deem it to be in my self-interest) to tolerate a good deal more bad behavior from people whom I deem to be intelligent, talented or interesting, as well as generally kind or usually lovable.
Sclass said: Your story makes me disordered and anxious. Good luck with this storm. Maybe its time to hit the muscle climbing wall for a break. That sounds like more fun.
I feel for you too. I apologize for being sexist in my assumptions about who is likely to be doing personal care duty. As you may recall, I was recently being "kept" by a wealthy former polygamist. I insisted on overt contract for monogamy, to which he literally adhered, but his behavior and attitude still eventually made me livid. The funny thing is that even though there was a level on which I felt like his pawn or his pet, there was another level on which he grew increasingly dependent on me because he had huge stormy emotions and my temperament is usually like San Diego. Kind of like how Nero Wolfe is dependent on Archie Goodwin. Anyways, I know it's kind of wrong to use my current lover like a sexual punching bag, but he doesn't care (he just laughed when I said "May I ask you a personal question. How much can you press?") and we are actually friends who sit around and eat his gourmet cooking and watch permaculture videos together, so it's okay. Like if we run into each other in the grocery store 5 years from now, we will smile and give each other a hug. Also, I am currently digging a deep pit through compacted earth and rubble in my garden, so that will burn off some of my steam too.

JamesR
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by JamesR »

jacob wrote:I didn't sign any contracts; nor was I in any legal state to sign for quite a few years, say until age 18. I'm firmly in the camp of "I didn't ask to be born, so I'm not culpable to fit into any designs my parents may have."
My thinking is basically the same as this, but I approach it from thinking about how I would be as a parent.

Basically, I ask myself if I was a parent, should I expect anything from my kids? Should I expect them to love me? The answer is no. They have no responsibility to me by default, they're not required to love me or do anything for me in particular. In fact it would be a form of abuse to expect that. I brought them into this world, and they're extensions of me in some limited sense - all I want is for them to succeed.

If they happen to love me or to be helpful, then so be it. However, I feel that parents that expect a lot from their children will end up engaging in emotional blackmail to get it, and that emotional blackmail is actually a form of abuse.

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GandK
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by GandK »

JamesR wrote:Basically, I ask myself if I was a parent, should I expect anything from my kids? Should I expect them to love me? The answer is no. They have no responsibility to me by default, they're not required to love me or do anything for me in particular. In fact it would be a form of abuse to expect that. I brought them into this world, and they're extensions of me in some limited sense - all I want is for them to succeed.
Very well put. This is basically how I feel about my sons. I want for them, not from them. And if I haven't set aside enough resources for them to care for me without dipping into their own funds when the time comes, I will feel humiliated and will feel like I have failed them.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@GandK: You might feel somewhat differently when your sons are somewhat older. I was just joking in my Devil's Advocate ENTP way when I wrote that I expect my son and lover to come over and dig holes for my old age survival shelter. They both volunteered to help and I turned them down because I am stubbornly, sometimes stupidly, independent. However, when my son gets out of rehab, I will probably give him a call and ask him for some help because I know it will make him feel good and/or competent to help out his "silly old mother" with a task he is much better suited to tackle, and then I will feed him some pie and talk to him. When I am 80 years old, my son will be 57 and it may be the case that the resource he will have more than enough for his own needs at that juncture will be money, so them maybe I will call him up and ask him if he can spare some money so I can buy some fancy Polish chickens, and then he will get back into bed with his lover and chuckle with her about his "silly old mother", but then come over the next day with some cash, and then I will feed him some pie and talk to him.

Anyways, I don't want to exist in a state of drooling incompetence even if I have money to burn in my old age, so I hope I have enough guts and wits to kill myself in a timely way that will be peaceful and seem like an accident. It would be useful to know what sort of margin people usually have in that sort of situation. Like do you usually have only two weeks between "still able to cheerfully dodder about the garden" and "drooling incompetence" or is it more like 3 years or 5 minutes? Maybe I should make a mutual kill pact with somebody around the same age as me who doesn't love me.

EMJ
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by EMJ »

How A Woman's Plan To Kill Herself Helped Her Family Grieve

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shot ... ily-grieve

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GandK
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by GandK »

EMJ wrote:How A Woman's Plan To Kill Herself Helped Her Family Grieve

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shot ... ily-grieve
8-) That was awesome. I cried.

enigmaT120
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by enigmaT120 »

My mom won't even let me come over and wash her dishes.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

That was a great article. What if you have a stroke or break your hip or...? I think my ex-father-in-law was maybe an INTJ. He was a chemist but reminded me of Clint Eastwood. He biked the entire Lewis and Clark trail solo when he was 69 but then died of a degenerative nerve condition that was like Parkinson's in his late 70s and was in terrible shape in his last years. I kind of wonder why he didn't kill himself. He had no compunction about drowning chipmunks.

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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

I sometimes slip into a pretty dark place when I wish my mom will go away. Sooner or later that will happen so there's no sense in wishing for it sooner. She's still here and I like eating dinner with her at her favorite restaurant. She'll always say, "wow, I love this it is so good. Mmmm what do they call this? Who runs this place?" She has eaten there since the 70s.

The time is precious to me and I will be sad when I cannot sit there with her. It will happen and there will be no going back.

A family friend solved his cancer problem with a bottle of pills. He was in a lot of pain and he warned everyone but his family didn't want to believe it. One day they found him with a note and the empty bottle. He was just that kind of take charge type who liked doing things himself. He was a physicist.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think it's sweet that you can still enjoy your mother's company in that way. I sometimes worry that my kids, especially my daughter, might take too much care or charge of me when I am old because they are both old-soul types on the MBTI, and I am a young-soul type. They've both been patting me on the head since they grew taller than me. I told them if I can no longer dodder around the garden or enjoy a cup of coffee and something off the new-new shelf at the library, then pull the plug, but I think a non-related peer might be better able to do the deed. I'm not particularly afraid of dying, because I think I have made some good use of most of my parts, and my energy will just join the universal compost heap. However, I would still very much like to do some things like breed a new variety of plant, master the art of karikuri, visit the ancient apple forests of Russia, make a little dress with French smocking for a great-grand-daughter, and be on the inside of an inside-out snow-globe of my own construction (etc. etc. etc. etc.) before I decompose.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by EdithKeeler »

My grandparents were thrifty to a fault--never made much money, but never had a mortgage, had a small farm, lived off the land, worked whatever jobs came along, never had any fancy investments beyond CDs or savings bonds, etc., and they died with money in the bank.

It skipped a generation with my mom. My dad, too (and his parents had more income, but were almost as thrifty as my mom's folks). My dad declared bankruptcy when I was in high school. My mom has declared bankruptcy twice. My brother has declared BK twice (though in his defense, he's handicapped, a low wage earner, and his bills were due to medical issues). My mom had sums of money come into her life at various times (insurance settlement, inheritance) and it just slipped thru her fingers. I remember when I was in college she didn't have any money until payday so I lent her some cash. Stupid me--she bought a few groceries, but also got her nails done.

Has this aggravated the PANTS off me? Yes. I've worked at something or another since I was 15 years old. Younger if you count babysitting. Yeah, I've wasted some money in my life, but I learned my lesson, too. My parents didn't pay for my college. They did buy me a car in high school, but I worked to pay for gas, insurance and any repairs. I've been financially independent of my parents since I was 17.

My mom is now 78 years old with physical disabilities--she uses a walker to get around, and barely gets around that way. My brother lives with her and contributes to the household. She doesn't even have a paid-for house, and was on the verge of foreclosure just 4 years ago. I pay for a cleaning lady for the house and also cell phone service.

Does it make me CRAZY? Yes, sometimes. I would be lying if I said I didn't resent it, pretty often actually. There are times when I get so aggravated with them i just want to scream. They buy lottery tickets every week and talk often about what they'll do with the money if they win. But there is no point in my pointing out that they'd do better putting the money in the bank.

Yes, it ticks me off that I'm paying for their cleaning lady, and that I often buy groceries and make dinner for them. There are moments when I just want to scream.

But. Here's the thing. I love them. They are my family. I don't love the stuff they do, but I love them a lot. My mom's a spendthrift, but she's a sweet lady who loves me who, despite not being able to stand up on her own somehow put together my favorite cake, from scratch, for my birthday last week.

Honestly, I don't know what's going to happen when/if/ok, probably when she has to go into a nursing home or assisted living. It's not going to be a very nice place, and I'll "inherit" my brother when it happens, which comes with its own set of issues.

So... do we owe our parents? I dunno. Probably not. But... they are our parents. Unless they abused us and mistreated us and treated us like crap, then I think most of us are going to want to see our parents reasonably provided for. I don't want my mom living in a refrigerator box under a bridge, and if I can help it, it won't happen. Do I have boundaries when it comes to what I'll do for them? Absolutely. I will never cosign on a loan for either of them. I will not make a house payment or anything like that. I know that sometimes my cleaning lady money gets used for other things, and I'm OK with that, as long as I don't get asked for more. (And to be honest, part of the cleaning lady money is to save myself--that way I don't have to take care of their house and my own, too).

And while there are times when I want to scream at her about her money management issues, there's nothing i can do to change the past, and I know that that's not the only attribute of mom--she's got a lot of great ones, too, and I know there's going to come a day when I won't have my mom anymore, and I'll miss her terribly.

Besides, when she wins the lottery, she's going to give me at least a couple million dollars, so it's all good.

Dragline
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Dragline »

EdithKeeler wrote: But. Here's the thing. I love them. They are my family. I don't love the stuff they do, but I love them a lot. My mom's a spendthrift, but she's a sweet lady who loves me who, despite not being able to stand up on her own somehow put together my favorite cake, from scratch, for my birthday last week.
Yup.

Campitor
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Campitor »

I think part of the problem is we are living longer but are not paragons of good health which is incurring expenses that far outweigh anyone' ability to pay. Before all this technology, people who got sick in old age died a lot quicker. Now we can stay alive with pills, tubes, and portable oxygen. If you had a sick parent/grand parent they didn't live decades before dying. Now everyone with a parent has to spend their retirement as a nurse to the elderly for 15+ years.

My plan is to stay as healthy as possible by eating very healthy and exercising and hope that I age well. My great grandmother who ate mostly vegetables and exercised every day died with her boots on - she was active right up to the day she died - stroke in the middle of the night killed her in her sleep at 98 years of age. I don't want to be a burden to my children and hope I go the same way.

OldPro
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by OldPro »

Time to turn this around and put the shoe on the other foot. What if YOU are the parent? I am reading some pretty self-centred comments here by a lot of posters. Do *I* owe my parents anything you ask. That's all about *I* isn't it.

So OK, let's suppose I am your parent (I'm old enough to be the grandparent of most of you I'm sure). You didn't ask to be born you say. Well, I didn't ask for you to be born either in many cases. You were a mistake, a stupid pair of young kids and the result of unprotected sex. So I didn't ask for you to be born either but you were. I guess we are even in that regard huh.

You didn't ask for parents who might become dependent in some way when they get older. Well I didn't ask for kids who were dependent either. Why didn't you support yourself from year 1 rather than 18 simplelife? The answer of course is you weren't able to 'stand on your own two feet' as you put it. Well what if I am no longer able to stand on my own two feet in my old age? Is that any different? Do you think I would want to be in that position through choice? Did I OWE you anything just because you were born? How is it any different than whether you OWE me anything when I am old?

What obligation did I have to feed, clothe and shelter you as a kid? When your Mom turned out to be a bitch and I divorced her, what obligation did I have to pay child support for the next 18 years? Why didn't I just run off and join the navy or something and forget about you? Why did I have to turn up and take you to hockey practice and baseball games on weekends? Why did I have to do without a vacation to buy your sports equipment? Why did I have to sacrifice anything I wanted to have so that I could pay for something you needed or wanted for that matter?

As the saying goes, "you can pick your friends but you can't pick your family." Well that works both ways. I don't get to pick my kids any more than than you get to pick your parents. If you have to ask whether you 'OWE' your parents anything, I'd say that's a prime example of a kid whose parents probably wish they could have picked a different kid.

I took care of you when you needed taking care of because I loved you, not because I OWED you anything. I didn't keep a running total on a spread sheet of how much you were costing me in time and money. You were my kid and I did what was the right thing to do, no more, no less. Now you ask if you OWE me anything. Well my answer is NO, you don't OWE me a thing. but I might be wishing I had done what I did for a kid who had more appreciation for what I did do.

Dave
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Dave »

OldPro wrote:Time to turn this around and put the shoe on the other foot. What if YOU are the parent? I am reading some pretty self-centred comments here by a lot of posters. Do *I* owe my parents anything you ask. That's all about *I* isn't it.
I think your post is going to spark some passionate responses, as you intended.

While I do not agree with a number of your statements (many of those I did not quote), I do think it is a useful exercise to invert, to ask what if we are the parent. And I do agree a number of the comments here seem self-centered, but that should not come as a surprise given the way many ERErs structure their lives and the way responsibility (seemingly unfairly, but not surprisingly) falls on them, instead of other less responsible family members.

I personally view my financial means as a way to have more (but of course not complete) control over my life. That may mean living life on tropical islands laying on the beach, or it may mean helping my parents live a better life in their latter years. Without knowing how the future will play out, I cannot know exactly what I will do, but I do consider it a possibility that my financial resources will be beneficial to family members at some point, and I am prepared for that.

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Ego
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Ego »

OldPro wrote:You didn't ask to be born you say. Well, I didn't ask for you to be born either in many cases. You were a mistake...
YOU made a mistake. Your child played no part in that mistake other than in being born as a result of it. You pay the price for your mistakes, right?

OldPro
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by OldPro »

You can try playing the 'blame' game if you want Ego but it doesn't change the facts. I supported you when you needed to be supported.

I used a scenario of a mistake as just that, a scenario. It is just an example of 'inverting' as Dave says. It could have as easily been that your birth was planned and I planned to support you till you were able to 'stand on your own two feet'. It wouldn't change anything if the day came when I was unable to support myself. I doubt any parent plans to have kids so that those kids will then be expected to support them in their old age. Not in our culture anyway.

There is no question that our culture is changing and we now have the 'me' generation who have a sense of entitlement and a very selfish view of life. That can be seen in many different aspects of our culture and this topic is just one of them. You can find all kinds of information that confirms that. https://www.google.ca/search?q=me+gener ... nt&ie=&oe=

Few if any parents want to have to rely on their children to support them in their old age. But they should not have to ask themselves, 'will they support me if I need supported.'

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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

My stepmother is kind of an ethnic type from a third world country. She left her aging parents to marry my dad many years back and used dads money to take care of her mom remotely. She spent some of her time here caring for my grandparents when they hit their 90s. I was worried that I'd have to help take care of her after my dad was gone. His reply was she had my half sister so she would have care in her old age. I agree with Ego...some people think this way. It is cultural. I'd go as far to say it is kind of old world.

Funny thing now while my dad insists on dictating the terms of my mother's care, my stepmother is avoiding the problem in any way she can. I guess she is worried she may inherit my mom.

Granted this is really old world stuff.

Even though my parents have the means to pay their own way, I don't like how they want me to be the manager of their elder care. I guess that sounds kind of spoiled. Maybe they can have their way since they are paying. But I wish they'd hire a professional manager for the household. I'm cheaper of course. I'm free since I'm retired. But I retired me through sacrifice...why do I have to hand my windfall of freedom over to my parents?

And my siblings aren't expected to help because they still have to work? F this BS. It's like I went off and got rich and now they want to take my time for free. Why didn't I just go into debt and stay working like my brother and sister?

As I was looking for dementia lockdown centers for my mom last week I realized this was a way of passing responsibilities off to somebody else for money in many cases. I wanted relief and I am willing to pay somebody to take the problem off my hands. Dad refused and said it was a death sentence in there as they use heavy meds to "stabilize" a dementia patient. I told him their euphemisms for euthanization were not lost on me.

Basically my folks want to stay in their homes with round the clock care but not pay for a manager. I'm so tired of being HR, payroll, time clock clerk, security guard, neighbor negotiator and petty cash clerk. I guess it could be worse, they could be broke and living with me.

This came to a head this week because a neighbor said the street wasn't zoned for a nursing home and he was going to take legal action against me if I didn't institutionalize mom now. Dad said if I didn't like it I he could have mom dropped off on my doorstep by one of his agents. I asked why my stepmother (roughly my age) was unwilling to take her. Silence. Maybe she "owes" my mom for sharing a husband with her so many decades.

No I don't owe them this. My AWOL siblings don't seem to owe anything.

Maybe I should ERE to Pattaya or Mexico where I'll be left alone.

I so regret showing up to help.

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GandK
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by GandK »

Sclass wrote:No I don't owe them this. My AWOL siblings don't seem to owe anything.
That's where I'd be climbing the walls in your shoes, Sclass. There is zero reason for you to be doing this alone. It's your father's responsibility... legally, morally, ethically, however you want to look at it. And if he's abdicated (jerk! sorry), your siblings should be stepping up, too.

This entire discussion hinges upon whether people have functional relationships with their parents or not, and how any existing dysfunction came to pass. I'm sure I'd be taking care of my mom in your shoes, just like you are. I'm also sure I'd be angry with the world to be left shouldering that burden alone, just like you sound.

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C40
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by C40 »

7Wannabe5 wrote: She promised me that she won't do any more public dancing and she understands that I am very angry that she made use of tomatoes from my garden in a criminal act.
I just want to say that this line brightened up my day. I almost spit out my tea from laughing.

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